Private Checkride logging issue

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The BFR thread elsewhere brings up a question in my mind.

When I did my Private checkride, the oral was valid but the flight was pretty short. The oral basically consisted of a few standard FAR questions followed by a safety lecture for 45 minutes.

For the flight, the conditions were ceiling about 2500, 8-9SM visibility. The DE had me skip pre-flighting in front of him. We did a normal takeoff. After that, we did a very short XC leg (like a minute or two), then some turns to headings. We did a 180 followed by slow flights and a partial-power stall. Then an engine-out and foggles time. We ended with pattern entry and a normal landing.

That was it. He logged 1.0 for the flight, but by the Hobbs it was 0.4.

I know that I wasn't tested on everything on the PTS, but since I had done everything previously on a mock checkride I'm comfortable with my ability.

Is this something to be worried about? Or don't worry - you have the ticket and you know you're qualified so let it go?
 
I may get slammed for this, but if it were me, I'd be inclined to let it go. Particularly if it had been a number of months, or even a year or so. The time to "do something" if one was to so choose, would be directly following.

Plus, if you were to admit to a fraudulent entry in your log book for a check ride, and had done some flying since, it seems to me the FAA would have something to say to the pilot in question as well as the DPE. If it were, me, I'd adjust my memory to "it happened like it states in the book" (I'm sure trhe DPE will concurr.... if the aircraft logs were checked, well then there'd be a discrepency wouldn't there. Two words to one, must be an error. These things happen... ;))
 
First, the DPE did not give you a proper Private Pilot practical test according to the PTS. The rules require that you be tested on all required Areas and Tasks, and by your description, that wasn't even close to being done. Furthermore, it's your signature, not his, attesting to the accuracy of the log entry, and unlike KD whose log shows the correct flight time, if you logged 1.0 when you only flew 0.4, you could eat a violation, too. With that exception, your situation is very much like KD's, in that you can either shut up and hope nobody notices or step forward and put this irresponsible person out of business before someone he signs off gets killed doing something on which he wasn't tested.

Understand that if you do this, you are likely going to have to retake the Private Pilot practical test -- a FULL Private Pilot practical test, which usually means over an hour of Q&A plus about 1.5 flight, covering each and every item required by the PTS, probably (in a case like this) with an FAA inspector rather than a DPE. It is also possible that the FAA will rescind your Private Pilot certificate until you do that. However, if they get wind of this DPE's game, they will locate and reexamine every single pilot who got a certificate from him anyway, so you would be getting a jump on the problem by stepping forward, as well as getting that "positive safety attitude" label at the FSDO.

All in all, I urge you to be part of the solution by taking KD's lead and telling the FSDO just what you told us.
 
I agree with Ron, with the possible exception that if we're talking about some significant time between your checkride and now, maybe taking no action wouldn't be out of the question. Only been a couple/few months? I'd probably go to FSDO. Been a couple/few years... hmmm. How much time are we talking about? Remember, the FAA could invalidate all your hours (additional ratings?) since your PPL checkride. Are you sure the guy is still a DPE? While there is really only one truly "moral" thing to do here, the consequences are much more severe than doing a new BFR.

Jeff
 
Call it 9 months since then. I'm pretty sure he's still a DPE - he's used by LOTS of people around the area.

No additional ratings yet, but I've been building XC time towards Instrument.
 
Jeez, sorry, you're in a tough spot. :( Maybe you can quietly and casually talk to others who have used him and see what their rides were like. Maybe he had a bad day (absolutely no excuse for DPE). I would be very concerned though if this guy is running some type of certificate mill.

Jeff
 
I think that I've decided to let it go.

1. I know that I'm a safe pilot, capable of meeting the standards.
2. I don't want to get a reputation locally of busting examiners.
3. I may need this examiner in the future for another rating.

I suspect that he had something else to do. His wife had rescheduled to the date in question from a date the following week (at her request, not mine), and I suspect that he felt he had to go through with my checkride and then get to his appointment.

He had failed a pilot or two for valid reasons weeks before he got to me - so I don't think it's a certificate mill.
 
Anonymous said:
I think that I've decided to let it go.
That's your choice to make, but there may be consequences.

1. I know that I'm a safe pilot, capable of meeting the standards.
That's good to hear, but it would be nice to have someone confirm that.

2. I don't want to get a reputation locally of busting examiners.
The other local examiners will be very happy to hear that someone not playing by the rules is no longer competing with them.

3. I may need this examiner in the future for another rating.
Do you also need HIV? You don't want to go near this cat ever again, no matter what. Assuming he gets caught (a pretty good assumption), the FAA will go back and reexamine everyone he gave a ticket to, unless they have a good reason not to. In the past, they've reexamined hundreds of pilots in cases like this. OTOH, if you've taken only your Private from him, and all your other higher licenses/ratings from other examiners, they may let it go (they've done that, too).

He had failed a pilot or two for valid reasons weeks before he got to me - so I don't think it's a certificate mill.
You don't know that, and can't know that unless/until the FSDO looks more deeply into the situation.

But it's your choice. Just choose wisely, understanding all the possible consequences.
 
Anonymous said:
Call it 9 months since then. I'm pretty sure he's still a DPE - he's used by LOTS of people around the area.

No additional ratings yet, but I've been building XC time towards Instrument.

I wouldn't consider going back to this guy whether or not I reported the incident to the FSDO, even if I had to fly to another state for any further tests.

AFaIK the only "violation" you've committed is the inaccurate logging of time for the checkride flight. Technically you could "fix" that by lining out the incorrect time and noting the 0.4 hrs (was it really that short? it's hard to get two trips around the pattern on 0.4 hobbs when it includes taxi, warmup, and runnup. I can't see how you would be held responsible for knowing what was actually required for a valid practical test unless you were a CFI. As I see it, your biggest hassle would be re-taking the practical test and that would probably be easier now than later. I also think you'd have to pass a ASEL-Commercial checkride before the FAA would consider letting you skip a retest of the PP test. The things covered in the IR are just too different for that to be a substitute.
 
Anonymous said:
I think that I've decided to let it go.

1. I know that I'm a safe pilot, capable of meeting the standards.
2. I don't want to get a reputation locally of busting examiners.
3. I may need this examiner in the future for another rating.

I suspect that he had something else to do. His wife had rescheduled to the date in question from a date the following week (at her request, not mine), and I suspect that he felt he had to go through with my checkride and then get to his appointment.

He had failed a pilot or two for valid reasons weeks before he got to me - so I don't think it's a certificate mill.

1. Knowing and proving is two different things. As you have stated you have not proved it yet.
2. The statement about your reputation goes south if you go along with this examiner. I would look at you as someone who has intergity if you do.
3. Are you nut? Never ever use this examiner again! :no:

There has been many good replys here to you. But you must deside for yourself. Good luck.
 
I would ask each of you who has replied:

What would you do?

Ron - would you go back and re-do checkrides for all of your certificates and ratings?
 
That's good to hear, but it would be nice to have someone confirm that.

I had two different instructors confirm that before taking my checkride. A mock checkride is USUALLY more stressful than the real one, as the standards are higher (so that you'll do OK when you're nervous on the real one). I fail to see why having my instructor and the FBO's chief pilot confirm it is less valid than the examiner (other than that the examiner has permission to issue certificates).
 
The one question that I have for you, having followed along with this thread is this. Why post if you are ok with what happened? I am not being rude or mocking. Genuinely, why ask if you are not concerned in any way? A DE has signed off on you, s/he has put their reputation on the line saying that you are safe. Your CFI has done the same. You obviously feel that you are qualified and the paperwork says you are.

Are you worried that this DE will be called out some day for inappropriate stuff and your log book will be questioned? I can see how that might be a valid concern.

Are you concerned that you are, in some way, not legal or not safe? You certainly say you aren't. And that is certainly your personal judgement to make.

You obviously had some concern that brought you here asking for opinions.

I have had two check-rides. One for my PP and one for my IR. One was more comprehensive than the other. Both were from qualified DEs and I passed both. I don't question the validity of the one that was somewhat "shorter" than the other, simply because it was shorter. You had a short ride, some here seem to feel maybe a deficient ride based on what you say about it. Was it really deficient? None of us were there with you. The DE may have seen exemplary performance out of you and determined fairly quickly that you were good to go. I know they have to cover quite a bit on the PP, but many things can be combined. Again, you have the sign off and the license and you certainly assert that you feel safe.

I think you need to ask yourself the question of why you are concerned. Then, you need to see what you need to do to answer that concern. If you are really concerned that the sign off was not legal and you may be caught out at some point, maybe you need to consider opening the can of worms to fix it (and it does sound like a true can of worms to me).

OTOH, if you concern is with a deficiency in some area, you can always go up with a CFI and shake that area out well. Hit it until YOU personally are happy with it.

I just sense some doubt on your part. I think only you can sort that doubt out for yourself.

Of course, just my free, unpaid for, 2 cent opinion.

Good luck with whatever you elect to do.

Jim G
 
Are you concerned that you are, in some way, not legal or not safe?

Mainly "not legal". I'm not concerned about being safe - I feel that I am safe and I've had plenty of non-examiner experts tell me the same.

I wondered if I could get in hot water someday. It seems that the risk there is that SOMEDAY the examiner might be taken to task by the FAA, and that they MIGHT go back and re-test me.

I'm inclined to believe that the checkride was valid and that the examiner was impressed by what he saw. For example, I suspect that I had very little XC time because of my pre-flight prep.

What worried me was the logging of the flight. He logged it and signed it for 1.0 and I know that the Hobbs only said 0.4. Maybe the Hobbs broke? Who knows. I do remember it going VERY quickly and we probably didn't get more than 5 miles from home. I only paid the FBO for 0.4. However, this is probably a "he said, he said" issue - the examiner isn't gonna bring it up and neither am I.
 
Anonymous said:
Mainly "not legal". I'm not concerned about being safe - I feel that I am safe and I've had plenty of non-examiner experts tell me the same.

I wondered if I could get in hot water someday. It seems that the risk there is that SOMEDAY the examiner might be taken to task by the FAA, and that they MIGHT go back and re-test me.

I'm inclined to believe that the checkride was valid and that the examiner was impressed by what he saw. For example, I suspect that I had very little XC time because of my pre-flight prep.

What worried me was the logging of the flight. He logged it and signed it for 1.0 and I know that the Hobbs only said 0.4. Maybe the Hobbs broke? Who knows. I do remember it going VERY quickly and we probably didn't get more than 5 miles from home. I only paid the FBO for 0.4. However, this is probably a "he said, he said" issue - the examiner isn't gonna bring it up and neither am I.

I didn't get more than 4 miles from home on my PP, and I only spent an hour in the air, +/-. These tests do not have to take too long, if done well.

It sounds to me like you had a valid checkout and the only real question is the hobbes time. I bet the hobbes stuck that day. I have seen this happen in several planes I rent. That time in the air goes pretty fast when you are being tested, you know? Seems to me the logged time in the book is your only real concern. It will take some digging to find that, if there is an investigation.

I see the alternative as a big can of worms. And I mean A BIG CAN OF WORMS. But I am by no means the most senior person on this board, nor am I a CFI, DE, etc.

Jim G
 
My DE explained that he didn't have to test me on every single maneuver in the book. For example, ground reference maneuvers are pretty well covered just by flying a regular pattern. I know the XC during my private was cut very short, as soon as he realized I knew what I was doing. I've also heard that good DE's know pretty much by the time you've left the runway for the first time whether you're (probably) going to pass.
 
BillG said:
My DE explained that he didn't have to test me on every single maneuver in the book.

The FAA disagrees. From the Private PTS:

"Adherence to the provisions of the regulations and the practical test standards
is mandatory for the evaluation of private pilot applicants."


"Applicants shall be evaluated in ALL TASKS included in each AREA OF OPERATION of the appropriate practical test standard, unless otherwise noted."


I added the first emphasis, but the second emphasis pure, unadulterated FAA editorial content.


BTW, "unless otherwise noted" usually means a notation at the top of the task list noting "Select Two" or a similar comment. I haven't been through the private PTS with a magnifying glass of late, but on a quick read I didn't see any such notations. There might actually be one or two I missed but on this particular PTS they are rare. See the CFI PTS for more generous allowance of DE options when selecting tasks.

For example, ground reference maneuvers are pretty well covered just by flying a regular pattern.

While it is often possible to combine tasks and the FAA does allow the practice, there are three ground reference maneuver tasks of which the only one demonstrated while flying a pattern is a rectangular course. IOW, there are still two that must be flown separately (S-Turns, Turns Around a Point).

Later edit: Wouldn't ya' know it--found one of those notes - "Select one" on this particular list.:)

I know the XC during my private was cut very short, as soon as he realized I knew what I was doing. I've also heard that good DE's know pretty much by the time you've left the runway for the first time whether you're (probably) going to pass.

The DE may have formed a preliminary opinion at that point but the FAA still requires the DE to execute the PTS as published, preliminary opinion or no.
 
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No arguments from me, Ed. What I meant is that had the DE not explained that to me I might have thought that he skipped that, when the reality is that he didn't. And I never meant to imply that he would pass someone on the bases of the first take off either... :)
 
Anonymous said:
Ron - would you go back and re-do checkrides for all of your certificates and ratings?
Only if the FAA made me do it. But that is just what they've done when they find a DPE who isn't playing by the book -- up to several hundred reexaminations for one bad DPE.

Unless/until the FAA rescinds your tickets, you're legal to hold them, and the only question then is whether you think you're safe to exercise the privileges, which is a question you have to ask yourself every time you strap in anyway, since legal isn't always safe. And if you don't think you're safe, you should be doing something about it (delaying the flight 'til your hangover recedes, getting some extra dual on gusty crosswind landings, digging in the book so you know all the systems in your plane, whatever is appropriate), regardless of whether the FAA knows about the situation or not.
 
One thing no one seems to have mentioned is whether this is a common practice for this DPE or just an exception. As Anon mentioned, the DPE seemed to have something to run off to afterwards. If this were a common practice, then the FBO has to be in on it too. If not, then they are ignoring what should be blatantly obvious. My exam was 1 1/2 hour oral and 2 in the air. Even a mock ride takes longer than .4 hour.
 
silver-eagle said:
Even a mock ride takes longer than .4 hour.
My mock checks take two to three times as long as the real thing. Students usually tell me the practical test was easy compared to what I give them, and that's the idea: "We sweat in training so we do not bleed in combat."
 
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