Pre-Heaters (non plug-in)

petrolero

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petrolero
I have a dead hangar with no electricity and no hope of ever getting electricity. I've asked. Lots. Ain't happening.

I have a Red Dragon stupid car-battery powered blower propane pre-heater. I guess it works, but the battery keeps dying since it gets no use through the summer. The thing comes with a trickle charger but you have to plug that in and, again, I have no plug in. So I try to hook it up to my car battery and charge it that way. Best I can do.

I've thought about putting some kind of solar cell up on the roof to keep the thing charged but every time I research them I end up with a headache.

I'm just wondering if the Red Dragon is the best I'm going to get or what. Anyone else lacking electricity but needing to preheat? Any nifty solutions?
 
why not use a motorcycle battery? it's light, easy to bring home and charge.
 
can you take the battery home and keep it on the trickle charger there?
 
Solar panel sounds like a good bet to me. This should do the job nicely, assuming you're not flying more than once or twice a week on average: http://amzn.com/B003LZ4IK4

It is probably worth replacing the battery at this point - even if you can get it to appear to charge, its capacity is probably shot if it's been drained and left dead.
 
If you have an acceptable mounting location for the solar panel, It's a snap in the Denver area. As some one suggested, Start with a battery (in the aircraft) which is in good condition. There are lots of Solar configurations which will suit, Biggest consideration is proper regulation of the solar output so as not to overcharge the aircraft battery. It's the same problem trickle chargers have solved for years going from standard AC inputs. Look at solar aficionado sites on google to find people who will help you with this aspect.
 
Take the battery home, charge it there. Really not too hard to add that as part of the steps in the process.
 
Bring the power to you...http://www.wisesales.com/eu2000ia-honda-generator.html?gclid=CIeknenM-8ECFVJgfgodtjIAwQ

Thinking solar may not be good option when u need it most being in CO with snow and all.

Small genny....crank her up night before you fly...

And you can use it for other stuff, camping, or when power goes out. It's small won't run ur whole house but will run essentials in a pinch.

This probably is the best solution since you already own a heater. There are much cheaper generators out there if the one Sean recommend is too expensive.
 
This probably is the best solution since you already own a heater. There are much cheaper generators out there if the one Sean recommend is too expensive.

Agree there are much cheaper options...this one is quiet and efficient if not at full load. In ECO mode will run 10 plus hrs 1/2 load up to 16 hrs with light load on a full tank(1.1 gal). Even at full load much quieter than cheap models.(less run time though about 4 hrs at 16 amps)
 
What about connecting the Red Dragon up to your car?


This. Been doing this for years. Why bother leaving a battery in a cold hangar to die or lug it back and forth? There's already a battery that got lugged to the hangar by the car. If I'm in the diesel truck, two. And an alternator to charge them up oh the way home.
 
We use the 5 Watt Solar battery trickle charger sold online at home depot for 40 dollars. Ir works great! Yes, it does not charge during cloudy weather. But, it is just a trickle charger, it does not have to be charging 100% of the time.
 
Feeling constructive. There are a bunch of Youtube videos on building your own. Search "airplane preheater" on youtube.com. No electricity needed.

Here's a link to one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DGsJpqRFqg


This is interesting. It looks like he is just using convection instead of a blower, which is nice. Plus this would be portable. I will check out some more of these on YouTube.

If the heat coming off a setup like this is really 400 degrees that would be enough to bubble my paint pretty quickly, but maybe I could throttle the white gas back until it isn't so hot or use less insulation so it cools a bit as it rises through the tubing?

Incidentally, I'm curious about the best place to insert the heater hose. I have been putting it in the front of the cowling where the oil cooler is, but I wonder if it would be better to go up through the cowl flap and heat the sump/block from below. I haven't done that because there are wires and the manifold drain down there on one side.
 
We use the 5 Watt Solar battery trickle charger sold online at home depot for 40 dollars. Ir works great! Yes, it does not charge during cloudy weather. But, it is just a trickle charger, it does not have to be charging 100% of the time.

If I stick with the red dragon type setup I agree that this makes sense to charge the car battery.

You'd laugh at the setups I have imagined. I originally wanted to do a electric-starter generator setup (exhaust vented outside the hangar) with a remote cell-phone start hooked up to an ordinary Reiff preheat system.

My thinking is that I need a generator in this hangar anyway.. so might as well get an electric-start one. But then I could vent the exhaust and start it remotely and not have to be present at the hangar. I could literally wake up and call the preheater at... say 3 am and the engine would be warm by the time I arrive for preflight.

But I just haven't pulled the trigger on this because it sounds like such a PITA to build.
 
I wouldn't remote start a genset in a hangar with no one present.

I've been the guy who walked in and found that the bladder tank had failed, as they all do eventually, and 100LL all over the floor.

Kinda hard to operate the fire extinguisher from that far away.
 
So is the consensus that I should built a heater out of a camping stove?

  • Has anyone actually used one of these white gas camp stove setups? How hot is the gas? The guy in the vid says 400 F which, if concentrated against the cowl, could bubble paint. Is that right?
  • Do you heat from the front opening (oil cooler/cylinder fins) or through a cowl flap at the bottom (sump, heat rising)?
  • How long does this take relative to a red dragon?
 
A 1000w generator and a Reiff, Tanis, or small hot air heater is more effective and way safer than any combustion heater can be. Go early, start the gennie, and leave for a couple of hours. You can't do that with a flame thrower pointed at your airplane!

Here are some pictures of my out-of-town heater. Easy to make and it works fine, but I can't leave it unattended and it takes a couple of hours to heat the engine through. And yes, it's a surplus ammo can from a thrift store. For most purposes I'd rather carry a generator and a short extension cord.
 

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Another idea... Last spring I bought a small propane unit heater that's battery powered and rechargeable. The battery has plenty of duration and using a 20# propane tank I could preheat a plane all winter. That heater is small and light, too, other than the propane tank. Make a duct to direct the air and you'd be golden. I bought mine at a local hardware store.
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...=aps&hvadid=3522204446&ref=pd_sl_9pwk2va8fi_b
 
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So is the consensus that I should built a heater out of a camping stove?

  • Has anyone actually used one of these white gas camp stove setups? How hot is the gas? The guy in the vid says 400 F which, if concentrated against the cowl, could bubble paint. Is that right?
  • Do you heat from the front opening (oil cooler/cylinder fins) or through a cowl flap at the bottom (sump, heat rising)?
  • How long does this take relative to a red dragon?

I haven't used the camping stove type but can see the advantage of being able to take it with you.
I have used electric heater and a red dragon, I would recommend heating from the cowl flaps, I think this usually heats the sump and carburetor the best.

As for the solar panel idea Harbor Freight sells a 45Watt 3 panel system with a charge controller that you can usually get on sale for about $160. There are smaller panels available for lower price on Ebay and you have to purchase a charge controller separately. But the HF system is complete and easy to install.
 
Another idea... Last spring I bought a small propane unit heater that's battery powered and rechargeable. The battery has plenty of duration and using a 20# propane tank I could preheat a plane all winter. That heater is small and light, too, other than the propane tank. Make a duct to direct the air and you'd be golden. I bought mine at a local hardware store.
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...=aps&hvadid=3522204446&ref=pd_sl_9pwk2va8fi_b

Wow I was just looking at that a few minutes ago thinking "some flex duct and a gas grill tank...." You can also split the duct to push some warm air into the cabin.

How long would that thing take to bring the engine from say 25 degrees up to 65ish? Thinking heat while pre-flighting, programming, weather briefing, etc.
 
Wow I was just looking at that a few minutes ago thinking "some flex duct and a gas grill tank...." You can also split the duct to push some warm air into the cabin.

How long would that thing take to bring the engine from say 25 degrees up to 65ish? Thinking heat while pre-flighting, programming, weather briefing, etc.

Think CO poisoning.
 
Wow I was just looking at that a few minutes ago thinking "some flex duct and a gas grill tank...." You can also split the duct to push some warm air into the cabin.

How long would that thing take to bring the engine from say 25 degrees up to 65ish? Thinking heat while pre-flighting, programming, weather briefing, etc.


Most guys use 32* as their heating threshold. When it's 10* all we try to do is assure the core of the engine reaches 32*. For temps in the teens to get the OIL to 65*? A couple of hours is my guess. TCM suggests 30 minutes. Remember that air cooled engines are easy to heat the cylinders but oil takes time. That's why I suggested getting a gennie and Reiff or other electric system. For those of us in the frozen north that park outside? It's what most of us do.

TCM recommends preheat below 20*. Lycoming says 10*. I don't hesitate to start my 520 in 25* with no preheat. Heat is better for the engine but time doesn't always allow me to warm it to 70*.
 
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A couple of thoughts regarding preheat. Consider them in your conditions, dismiss them, I don't care. I'll just share what I've learned through 20+ years of Alaskan winter flying.

Warm air, no matter how it's applied, will quickly heat cylinders but oil takes a long time. Especially since the heat transfer from heater to oil is very inefficient. I've used hot air in the form of Red Dragons, mini Herman Nelson setups, and probably the best option, a 900w "Little Buddy" electric heater mounted on my engine mount with adel clamps. Include my ammo box combustion heater, too. In all cases it takes time to preheat an engine properly. Almost nobody allows enough time. The cylinders feel warm and they get impatient so they pack the heater and start the plane. In below zero temps it's easy to heat the cylinders enough to quickly fire the engine for but if the oil isn't warmed the oil pressure will sit on zero for many seconds. Maybe 30 seconds. That sucks. There has to be a better way.

Oil pan pad heaters are cheap and effective. A 75w pad heater will warm the oil well when attached correctly to the sump. Yep, it's an electric appliance so power is necessary. If you leave it on all the time the greenhouse effect takes the water vapor to the place where dew point occurs and the humidity condenses there. Like in your cylinders and on the cam and lifters. Most of us will only preheat prior to a flight so the time factor is important. In cold temps, even with a well insulated engine cover, the oil can be warmed to ease the starter's work in turning the engine but the cylinders, being engineered to air cool, may still be cold. Prime it, hear a few ignition pops, and sometimes all you get is frosted plugs. That'll postpone your flight. Nothing to do now but break out a real heat source and warm the engine thoroughly. So pad heaters aren't a great solution either.

Enter Tanis and Reiff. These guys heat the oil and the cylinders. Tanis has an option to heat the case but that'll happen coincidentally when the oil is adequately warmed so I think that's a waste. I remember an 18* day when I put a generator to my Turbo XP system on my then new Cub. In about 3 hours (I left and came back) the oil and cylinder temps were at 90*. I don't know of a more efficient or practical way to heat an aircraft engine. Sometimes I have to use warm air from a combustion heater but I never prefer it if I have an electric option. A heater like the Little Buddy works well but it'll take considerably longer. Like overnight. In concert with an oil sump heater it's faster but it'll require more than a 1000w. No big deal for a power outlet but not too practical for my generator. Reiff and Tanis apply good heat with small power consumption. My Reiff system allows me to dedicate less time to airplane prep. That's a important detail in my life.

The coldest temps I've flown in were just shy of -40*F. Prepping a plane is not fun in those temps. Nothing is fun in those temps. Preheating is a slow process and heating too quickly is a real concern. Using a combustion heater forces me to stand there and monitor the flame. Been there, done that. Don't want to do it again. I'd rather carry a generator if I anticipate those kinds of temperatures. Start the gennie and go back inside for coffee or a nap!
 
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I have a small propane heater that is constructed in a tool box. For power I use car battery or cigarette lighter plug,while pre heating.
 
A couple of thoughts regarding preheat. Consider them in your conditions, dismiss them, I don't care. I'll just share what I've learned through 20+ years of Alaskan winter flying.

Warm air, no matter how it's applied, will quickly heat cylinders but oil takes a long time. Especially since the heat transfer from heater to oil is very inefficient. I've used hot air in the form of Red Dragons, mini Herman Nelson setups, and probably the best option, a 900w "Little Buddy" electric heater mounted on my engine mount with adel clamps. Include my ammo box combustion heater, too. In all cases it takes time to preheat an engine properly. Almost nobody allows enough time. The cylinders feel warm and they get impatient so they pack the heater and start the plane. In below zero temps it's easy to heat the cylinders enough to quickly fire the engine for but if the oil isn't warmed the oil pressure will sit on zero for many seconds. Maybe 30 seconds. That sucks. There has to be a better way.

Oil pan pad heaters are cheap and effective. A 75w pad heater will warm the oil well when attached correctly to the sump. Yep, it's an electric appliance so power is necessary. If you leave it on all the time the greenhouse effect takes the water vapor to the place where dew point occurs and the humidity condenses there. Like in your cylinders and on the cam and lifters. Most of us will only preheat prior to a flight so the time factor is important. In cold temps, even with a well insulated engine cover, the oil can be warmed to ease the starter's work in turning the engine but the cylinders, being engineered to air cool, may still be cold. Prime it, hear a few ignition pops, and sometimes all you get is frosted plugs. That'll postpone your flight. Nothing to do now but break out a real heat source and warm the engine thoroughly. So pad heaters aren't a great solution either.

Enter Tanis and Reiff. These guys heat the oil and the cylinders. Tanis has an option to heat the case but that'll happen coincidentally when the oil is adequately warmed so I think that's a waste. I remember an 18* day when I put a generator to my Turbo XP system on my then new Cub. In about 3 hours (I left and came back) the oil and cylinder temps were at 90*. I don't know of a more efficient or practical way to heat an aircraft engine. Sometimes I have to use warm air from a combustion heater but I never prefer it if I have an electric option. A heater like the Little Buddy works well but it'll take considerably longer. Like overnight. In concert with an oil sump heater it's faster but it'll require more than a 1000w. No big deal for a power outlet but not too practical for my generator. Reiff and Tanis apply good heat with small power consumption. My Reiff system allows me to dedicate less time to airplane prep. That's a important detail in my life.

The coldest temps I've flown in were just shy of -40*F. Prepping a plane is not fun in those temps. Nothing is fun in those temps. Preheating is a slow process and heating too quickly is a real concern. Using a combustion heater forces me to stand there and monitor the flame. Been there, done that. Don't want to do it again. I'd rather carry a generator if I anticipate those kinds of temperatures. Start the gennie and go back inside for coffee or a nap!

I have been eyeballing a Turbo XP system since I bought the plane. In order to do that I'd need a generator, which I (kinda) need anyway. I'd then want to automate it... and then I'd end up with the pipe dream mentioned above: a cell-phone controllable gen set. I still dream of starting a pre-heat from my bed at 5 am. :D

I have a small propane heater that is constructed in a tool box. For power I use car battery or cigarette lighter plug,while pre heating.

Well it's interesting that you mentioned the cig lighter (12 VDC). I chose to preheat in upper-teen temps prior to my T-day trip. I realized that I don't need the stupid red dragon battery. To run the blower, I just ran long jumper cables into the hangar from my car parked on the other side of the hangar door (it's a port-a-port so you can just "crack" the side panel open).

Problem solved. Except for the fact that I have to stay and babysit the thing.
 
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Should I begin heating from the cowl flaps? Based on several comments it sounds like that way is best for heating the oil in the sump (makes sense).
 
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