Pre-departure briefing

asechrest

asechrest

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asechrest
Hello. Background: I'm a student pilot, about two flights from checkride.

I was reading the twins thread and saw a post by Dr. Chien wherein he mentions he doesn't sign folks off if they don't "verbalize the pre-departure briefing."

And I realized I don't have a pre-departure briefing. I assume this is referring to verbalizing the altitudes at which you land on remaining runway vs. land straight ahead vs. turn-back if the engine fails.

Could someone outline the basics of a pre-departure briefing, and perhaps recommend some altitudes for a C-172M? If it matters, I fly out of KPIE in FL.

Thanks.
 
asechrest said:
Hello. Background: I'm a student pilot, about two flights from checkride.

I was reading the twins thread and saw a post by Dr. Chien wherein he mentions he doesn't sign folks off if they don't "verbalize the pre-departure briefing."

And I realized I don't have a pre-departure briefing. I assume this is referring to verbalizing the altitudes at which you land on remaining runway vs. land straight ahead vs. turn-back if the engine fails.

Could someone outline the basics of a pre-departure briefing, and perhaps recommend some altitudes for a C-172M? If it matters, I fly out of KPIE in FL.

Thanks.
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Keep it simple. Too many GA pilots try to make a complex briefing because someone said "we should do it like the airline pilots". In reality the airline procedures keep it short and simple as well.
 
I was referring to what happens in a multiengine airplane when on of the engines goes south just as you are coming off the pavement. There is little time to think (you do have to) but you cannot be working it out at that moment.

The predeparture briefing in a piston twin is very simple:

It can be:

If one of the fans goes at Vyse we're going to go and treat it as in inflight emergency.

or

If one of the fans goes at Vyse, we shut down, open the doors and take the trees.

or

This is Roscoe, your pilot. Time to light the fires. Everything is gonna be fine. The chances of dying in a fire while I figure it out are too small to be concerned with....

....get the drift? :) :). As in, "now don't be Roscoe".

Most the tables for go/stop and fail/go give you a max of 3 seconds travelling at 100mph mph to execute the plan. That's not a long time to decide what to do. You have to PRE-decide

As for R&W's comment, he's right: In a piston single, it's much more cut and dried. the fan works, or it doesn't. That dictates what you do.
 
As a sim instructor I watched and listened to more briefings than I can count.

The really good ones were by pilots who turned to the pax, made eye contact with them and actually communicated rather than staring straight ahead and reciting some rote bull**** that he thought made him sound like a big-airplane driver.

PS: If it's a high-wing Cessna be sure to assure they haven't left the seat-belt dangling outside the airplane before you lock the door.
 
Thanks for the responses.

What I figure is, at the very least, I should choose an altitude at which I have decided a turn back to the runway is doable (for my skill level, with a "freeze factor" built in to account for a few seconds of denial). I believe I've read that I should verbalize that to the DPE.

Does anyone have a good solid altitude for a no-time pilot in a C-172? My land straight ahead options at most of the runways at KPIE really suck. But I'm sure it would suck worse to stall/spin trying to turn back. So I'd like to pick an altitude for turnback, verbalize it before takeoff, and call it out once I hit it.
 
To clarify: it looks like I was using incorrect terminology for a no-time SEL pilot. I am aware of the passenger briefing and I'll be working on an adequate one.

I guess what I'm talking about is verbalizing the turnback altitude, which I incorrectly believed was what Dr. Chien was referencing as a pre-departure briefing.

Sorry, bit of a newbie. :D
 
At what altitude do you start your crosswind turn?

asechrest said:
To clarify: it looks like I was using incorrect terminology for a no-time SEL pilot. I am aware of the passenger briefing and I'll be working on an adequate one.

I guess what I'm talking about is verbalizing the turnback altitude, which I incorrectly believed was what Dr. Chien was referencing as a pre-departure briefing.

Sorry, bit of a newbie. :D
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This is such a dumb thing for a light civil pilot to be worried about, or for CFI's to get riled up over. My "pre-departure briefing" (to myself since it is just me) consists of taking the runway knowing what my max abort speed is, the things that I will execute a high speed abort for (not much), and just a general sense of what it feels like if I am making normal power or not. I don't say them out loud, I have just done this for long enough that I know what I will do. This I'm sure is absolutely the wrong answer for a 100,000+ lb jet with hundreds of passengers aboard, but neither myself, nor dudes flying Cessnas/light twins/etc are in that boat. You can take off and land a light aircraft several times over in the length of a lot of runways. Don't make your students (to the overzealous CFI's out there) execute procedures that don't apply to the airplane you are flying, just so that you can pretend you are flying something you are not.

I completely would agree that in a crew environment (as in an airplane that requires a crew of more than one), you should both brief what to do. That is what a brief prior to ever getting into the airplane is for. But I digress. We don't need to be pretending that every Baron pilot is part of a larger aircrew. He should be trained to make decisions on his own, and fly the aircraft as the sole manipulator of controls, as that is what most folks in those shoes will be doing without a CFI.

If this is about the impossible turn, my answer is to just have some common sense and not try to honk off a 60+ AOB turn at 300' with a failed engine. Yes, there is probably a nebulous altitude and gross weight where you walk the fine line of making it versus not, but in my mind, if there is any doubt, there is no doubt. I'd rather make a controlled crash straight ahead with my wings underneath me, than cartwheel (or depart controlled flight at 100') to my death in the process of passing up a departure end clearing for a paved runway.

Just some thoughts.....you can take them or leave them, and I will caveat this all by saying that I am no CFI, and only about 10% of my TT is in prop driven aircraft, so of course I could be wrong/seeing things from the wrong perspective.
 
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Decide on a point-of-no-return for your takeoff roll. As in, if you're not off by X, you abort. The usual rule of thumb is 70% of liftoff speed by 50% of the runway. Know what speed 70% of liftoff speed is, given large ASI errors there.

Verbalize it. For instance, I expect to be out of ground effect at South Lake Tahoe before passing the terminal. There is still 4000 feet of runway after that, so I can land straight ahead on the runway if performance is inadequate.

Crosswind turn is usually 300 ft below TPA, but often changes with noise abatement.
 
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Something I don't see addressed much is go/no go point. If we don't reach XXX airspeed by XXX point on the runway we abort. Why? Folks have not looked at normal takeoff distance or go/no go in the twin. If the plane doesn't accelerate normally, how would you know? Time? Point on the runway? Obviously, more important on a short field. Some folks have just kept going when any good decision point would have shown them it wouldn't be a normal departure.

Good luck.

Best,

Dave
 
Lest we complicate the bejesus out of everything now days!

Anyone ever had a full power loss after takeoff, it's something like this:

Where can you put her down with the least risk, I could give a rat azz if it's a airport, folks have this hardon for getting back to the airport :dunno:


Engine quits,

Look as far as you can to your left then right, then land in the place that makes you say "THERE!"

There are some little trinkets I like, like the 50% runway by 75% VR or reject.

But the safest pilots are just the ones with the best common sense and stick and rudder, briefings are fun (especially when you're wearing some kick azz aviators) but pale in comparison.
 
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I don't disagree, but at the fields where that might come into play I don't normally see any markings that help much.

Dave Siciliano said:
Something I don't see addressed much is go/no go point. If we don't reach XXX airspeed by XXX point on the runway we abort. Why? Folks have not looked at normal takeoff distance or go/no go in the twin. If the plane doesn't accelerate normally, how would you know? Time? Point on the runway? Obviously, more important on a short field. Some folks have just kept going when any good decision point would have shown them it wouldn't be a normal departure.

Good luck.

Best,

Dave
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See, you're getting smarter already. Is this a great country, or what?

asechrest said:
I'm not sure. I think the answer is "it depends." I guess I could test it at altitude.
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Not disagreeing, but picking a place on the field is best IMO, time can be a back up, although, not as good. I've seen folks depart on a high, long runway, high DA and just keep going when it should have been clear they'd never clear an obstacle at the end. Using some bench mark is good if at all possible.
I've accelerated down a long runway in Colorado Springs and didn't think I'd ever get off the ground. Looking at the performance charts helped, but had it been seat of the pants, how would one have any idea if acceleration was normal?

Best,

Dave
 
I learned to fly there. They told the guys flying the 65 hp trainers to get it bouncing after the tail came up and it would finally fly.

Dave Siciliano said:
Not disagreeing, but picking a place on the field is best IMO, time can be a back up, although, not as good. I've seen folks depart on a high, long runway, high DA and just keep going when it should have been clear they'd never clear an obstacle at the end. Using some bench mark is good if at all possible.
I've accelerated down a long runway in Colorado Springs and didn't think I'd ever get off the ground. Looking at the performance charts helped, but had it been seat of the pants, how would one have any idea if acceleration was normal?

Best,

Dave
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wabower said:
I don't disagree, but at the fields where that might come into play I don't normally see any markings that help much.
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That's why those of us who are paranoid will often step off the distance and leave a towell or something there so I can see where I want to be at 70mph. People look at me like I'm an idiot but I'm used to that, I have 2 daughters at home.
 
I need 600' (can do it shorter by holding brakes, adding flaps and making lotsa noise) and can't remember the last 1,200' strip I visited. Not much arithmetic necessary, sure not worth schlepping up and down an airport and leaving a perfectly good golf-bag towel behind.:D

JHW said:
That's why those of us who are paranoid will often step off the distance and leave a towell or something there so I can see where I want to be at 70mph. People look at me like I'm an idiot but I'm used to that, I have 2 daughters at home.
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asechrest said:
Thanks for the responses.

What I figure is, at the very least, I should choose an altitude at which I have decided a turn back to the runway is doable (for my skill level, with a "freeze factor" built in to account for a few seconds of denial). I believe I've read that I should verbalize that to the DPE.

Does anyone have a good solid altitude for a no-time pilot in a C-172? My land straight ahead options at most of the runways at KPIE really suck. But I'm sure it would suck worse to stall/spin trying to turn back. So I'd like to pick an altitude for turnback, verbalize it before takeoff, and call it out once I hit it.
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I did such exercise with my CFI on C172 when I was a student pilot. CFI pulled power at 800' AGL, I lowered the nose, did 180 turn, and reached the numbers at around 100' AGL. If you haven't already you should definitely try that.

On the other hand, I don't think that level of detail needs to be briefed unsolicited to DPE. If you are asked about failure scenario then you can explain best your knowledge, but don't offer any unsolicited answer. Just fly the airplane and you will be fine.
 
wabower said:
I need 600' (can do it shorter by holding brakes, adding flaps and making lotsa noise) and can't remember the last 1,200' strip I visited. Not much arithmetic necessary, sure not worth schlepping up and down an airport and leaving a perfectly good golf-bag towel behind.:D
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It's more a matter of when the relatives promise to mow the grass short for us, but their idea of short is not the same as mine. Most of the places we go are pretty long, over 2000ft, but sometimes I have to re-mow part of it and try the takeoff again.
 
JHW said:
It's more a matter of when the relatives promise to mow the grass short for us, but their idea of short is not the same as mine. Most of the places we go are pretty long, over 2000ft, but sometimes I have to re-mow part of it and try the takeoff again.
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If they don't mow it well, they should at least provide the towel! :D
 
Thanks for the replies. Here's what I'm getting from this thread:

No real need for a formal departure briefing for a piston single weekend warrior like myself.
No particular need to verbalize a turn-back altitude to the DPE, though perhaps have one in mind & test it at altitude.
Also perhaps mark a decision point on the runway to abort if not airborne.
 
asechrest said:
Also perhaps mark a decision point on the runway to abort if not airborne.
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personal preference, but I'd say that is too late. I generally want to be at 70% of flying speed by the halfway point. That (usually) leaves room to stop, and if not at 70% by the midpoint, I'm not going to make it in the air by the end.
 
Read the article that was provided. It's the simple stuff. Seats secured, belts fastened, doors and window operation, emer exit, comply with pilot instructions, call any traffic you see, etc.

The brief is even more important if you're flying with another pilot, especially one without any crew training. Establish who is PIC, who makes the calls, the right-seater's duties or lack thereof "you toucha da airplane I breaka you face" other stuff. I think flying with another pilot is far more dangerous than with a non-pilot pax.

asechrest said:
Thanks for the replies. Here's what I'm getting from this thread:

No real need for a formal departure briefing for a piston single weekend warrior like myself.
No particular need to verbalize a turn-back altitude to the DPE, though perhaps have one in mind & test it at altitude.
Also perhaps mark a decision point on the runway to abort if not airborne.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
I don't disagree, but at the fields where that might come into play I don't normally see any markings that help much.
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No trees, fences, parked aircraft, sheds, big rocks, centerline stripes, etc.? If it's really that featureless, maybe obstructions aren't a factor...and you can always make your own marker like one earlier poster suggested with a towel.

I aborted a takeoff at an urban airport because I was running out of runway, during a checkout in an unfamiliar aircraft, with no flaps. It's not only remote very short airstrips. 2700 feet, in this case, was short enough. Remember, you have to consider the start/stop distance, not just the takeoff roll.
 
I can see the rocks and buildings, dude, they just don't have any numbers printed on them. Do they provide that service where you live?

MAKG1 said:
No trees, fences, parked aircraft, sheds, big rocks, centerline stripes, etc.? If it's really that featureless, maybe obstructions aren't a factor...and you can always make your own marker like one earlier poster suggested with a towel.

I aborted a takeoff at an urban airport because I was running out of runway, during a checkout in an unfamiliar aircraft, with no flaps. It's not only remote very short airstrips. 2700 feet, in this case, was short enough. Remember, you have to consider the start/stop distance, not just the takeoff roll.
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It'll be interesting to put the C90 in at Gastons in a couple weeks. No grass experience in this plane yet. Should be pretty light. In the P baron, it just dragged out of there and really wasn't geared to that kind of airport. The King Air should be great. Departure brief: AC off until 500 feet (g).

Best,

Dave
 
wabower said:
I can see the rocks and buildings, dude, they just don't have any numbers printed on them. Do they provide that service where you live?
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Yep. Google Maps comes with a nice scale for every location in the world (well, except for NZSP, but that's completely flat, featureless terrain). If you haven't done your preflight homework per 14 CFR 91.103, you can always pace it out.
 
I'll still need 600' no matter how hard you try to make it. If you need more than 2,700' you might want to consider an upgrade.



MAKG1 said:
Yep. Google Maps comes with a nice scale for every location in the world (well, except for NZSP, but that's completely flat, featureless terrain). If you haven't done your preflight homework per 14 CFR 91.103, you can always pace it out.
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wabower said:
I'll still need 600' no matter how hard you try to make it. If you need more than 2,700' you might want to consider an upgrade.
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Hint: this wasn't a 172 and wasn't in its favored takeoff configuration (it's approved for no flaps, but favors 10 deg). And 2700 feet was the start/stop distance, not the takeoff roll. I don't like the idea of rolling off the end of the runway during an aborted takeoff.

But that really doesn't change that you need to make this decision, rather than have it made for you very quickly by circumstance.
 
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Dave Siciliano said:
It'll be interesting to put the C90 in at Gastons in a couple weeks. No grass experience in this plane yet. Should be pretty light. In the P baron, it just dragged out of there and really wasn't geared to that kind of airport. The King Air should be great. Departure brief: AC off until 500 feet (g).

Best,

Dave
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the C90 will be a cakewalk compared to the P-baron
 
JHW said:
That's why those of us who are paranoid will often step off the distance and leave a towell or something there so I can see where I want to be at 70mph. People look at me like I'm an idiot but I'm used to that, I have 2 daughters at home.
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<G> you can take the boy out of the bush but you can't take the bush pilot out of the boy
 
I sometimes do a departure briefing in a lowly Cessna. Mostly for my benefit. For example when the end of the runway is nothing but urban sprawl, I call out the altitude in MSL that I know will allow me to go back to the field. I use that to keep me from being tempted to try it lower in an emergency (which I found out is very tempting).
 
Dave Siciliano said:
It'll be interesting to put the C90 in at Gastons in a couple weeks. No grass experience in this plane yet. Should be pretty light. In the P baron, it just dragged out of there and really wasn't geared to that kind of airport. The King Air should be great. Departure brief: AC off until 500 feet (g).

Best,

Dave
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King Air's on grass is a non event. Is your AC electric?
 
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