This plus if I ever buy another plane I'm skipping the pre buy and having an annual preformed. That is a cursory pre buy then if looks good straight to an annual. Got stuck on a plane once that I had a pre buy inspection done then later an annual that exposed stuff that the pre buy missed.My suggestion is to pick a AP that will do your MX work on it also.
so you're gonna pay for an annual when an annual wouldn't be legally required to check for the things a pre - buy would?This plus if I ever buy another plane I'm skipping the pre buy and having an annual preformed. That is a cursory pre buy then if looks good straight to an annual. Got stuck on a plane once that I had a pre buy inspection done then later an annual that exposed stuff that the pre buy missed.
well my pre buy didn't catch what an annual would. Maybe you can say I had a poor pre buy? But a pre buy at least mine doesn't inspect the plane like an annual does. Do a pre buy inspection then if it passes roll it into a annual. If a annual turns up discrepancies then decide on a purchase or walk away. All paid by the buyer.so you're gonna pay for an annual when an annual wouldn't be legally required to check for the things a pre - buy would?
you could put it as a contingency but who pays if you walk away? Could the previous owner count that?
just wanting to understand your thought process and why an owner would allow you to tear up his AC and maybe cost $$$ to fix the descripencies.
In my experience, its not the type of inspection but who is preforming it. If you have some 3rd party mechanic perform your prebuy or annual, there is no guarantee when you get that aircraft back home and have your mechanic or shop perform its next mx or annual that everything will be good either. What is considered airworthy is both objective and subjective to the person performing the work. And as to a seller allowing an annual to be performed as part of the prebuy without some sort of agreement or understanding with the buyer would not be the wisest thing to do and one I do not recommend unless you're in escrow or something as binding.This plus if I ever buy another plane I'm skipping the pre buy and having an annual preformed.
if by overhaul you mean zero time an engine I don't think you have priced an 'overhaul' recently.Things like worn or faded
upholstery and runs in paint can be more expensive than an engine
overhaul.
My experience: 100%. A third party mech, even a good one, doesn't have to see eye-to-eye with your mech.In my experience, its not the type of inspection but who is preforming it. If you have some 3rd party mechanic perform your prebuy or annual, there is no guarantee when you get that aircraft back home and have your mechanic or shop perform its next mx or annual that everything will be good either. What is considered airworthy is both objective and subjective to the person performing the work.
So I got knocked on another comment I made but your saying a PB can be anything from yea it looks good to it’s a airworthy plane?“How much for a PB?” is often how these things begin.
When the reply of “What do you want me to do?” Is countered with
“Whatever you think you should do.” and the drama unfolds.
There are many ways to do a PB but it can be a dangerous undertaking.
What IS required is a firm understanding of what is to be accomplished
and by whom. There is no FAA defined “PB Inspection” so it’s up to the
Buyer to dictate the scope of the task. Obviously; this determines the cost.
The Tech has to be wary and avoid making any statements that would
“guarantee” the aircraft and resulting financial liability of condition.
A PB can take as little as 4 hours. That would allow for compression and
screen check as well as a somewhat cursory look at the aircraft with few
panels opened and the paperwork untouched.
Or you can do an in- depth assessment of all areas in 40+ hours depending
on type. What was the “ understanding”?
One option is to have the buyers home mechanic examine all the records
to start the process. He/she can then make recommendations on what
items to check. Pix, vids, FaceTime or Skype may be helpful here.
YMMV
A pre buy is not an annual; it is a cursory inspection looking at the logs/powerplant and airframe for known concerns for that airframe/engine and any areas of concerns that could affect airworthiness or incur large expenses. What I ask for is a logbook review looking for AD compliance, engine check consisting of draining the oil/screen and/or filter check, compression and borescope, ground run for full power/mag checks/prop cycling/removing various inspection panels and direct/borescope exam for corrosion /damaged structural elements, Avionics power-up, ground check. I have the inspector call me if they hit any significant concerns and decide whether or not to proceed or $hi+ can the inspection. I've had two of the latter that saved me major $$$$ by passing on aircraft that had impressive logs that misrepresented the actual condition. No prebuy can predict, with certainty, all the items that can come back and bite you later, but, I view it as a reasonable risk reduction process for one who can't devote the time to do the inspection myself.Does a pre buy catch all the deficiencies that an annual does? If not why use a pre buy in the first case?
Yes get a pre buy and if passes then roll into an annual. There was a Mooney dealer that did that for his buyers. Used a well regarded Mooney shop.A pre buy is not an annual; it is a cursory inspection looking at the logs/powerplant and airframe for known concerns for that airframe/engine and any areas of concerns that could affect airworthiness or incur large expenses. What I ask for is a logbook review looking for AD compliance, engine check consisting of draining the oil/screen and/or filter check, compression and borescope, ground run for full power/mag checks/prop cycling/removing various inspection panels and direct/borescope exam for corrosion /damaged structural elements, Avionics power-up, ground check. I have the inspector call me if they hit any significant concerns and decide whether or not to proceed or $hi+ can the inspection. I've had two of the latter that saved me major $$$$ by passing on aircraft that had impressive logs that misrepresented the actual condition. No prebuy can predict, with certainty, all the items that can come back and bite you later, but, I view it as a reasonable risk reduction process for one who can't devote the time to do the inspection myself.
Welcome to the REAL world of airplane buying and selling. We are talking about 40 and 50-year-old airplanes that have had 40 and 50 years to accumulate plenty of corrosion, cracks, bad repairs, no in-depth inspections, and so lots of nasty stuff can show up in an airplane that has been getting $800 annuals for a long time. I have encountered way too many airplanes where the interior has NEVER been out for a look at the structure, controls cables and pulleys, hydraulic and fuel lines, and wiring. I have crawled under instrument panels to find vacuum central and relief valve filters rotted away. That takes many years. I have found the controls chafing wiring and fluid lines. I have found fuel strainer bowls seized to the strainer body because they haven't been off in decades for screen and bowl cleaning. Found loose control surface hinge hardware. Found fuel hoses so old they're solid like wood, and their steel braiding rusting. Found the wrong fittings in the fuel system.so you're gonna pay for an annual when an annual wouldn't be legally required to check for the things a pre - buy would?
you could put it as a contingency but who pays if you walk away? Could the previous owner count that?
just wanting to understand your thought process and why an owner would allow you to tear up his AC and maybe cost $$$ to fix the descripencies.
No. Nor would it be expected to. The prebuy has no standard and is not regulatory, and an annual has a minimum standard and is regulatory.Does a pre buy catch all the deficiencies that an annual does?
Simply because they serve different purposes. But even if the seller did allow an annual to used as a prebuy, its not a 100% guarantee when you take the aircraft home the next mechanic will not find something wrong either. Or another option is to buy at an aircraft condition/price level where a prebuy is not even needed.If not why use a pre buy in the first case?
Interesting. So how do you get around the requirements of 43.9 for the work you are performing on the aircraft?Really can’t put anything in log..
I made this mistake with my last purchase, a year ago. I sent a skilled (and independant) prebuy mechanic to do a PB for me. He did a good job, took lots of pics, and even found a few things that the owner didnt know about (like a mud dauber's nest in one of the ailerons). But after I got it home, THAT is when I found all the discrepancies. Lesson learned... BE THERE when the PB is occurring and question everything. Grab the exhaust and see if it moves. Take off the wheel pants and look at the tires and discs. Write up a pros and cons list of discrepancies. I found SO MANY ITEMS that were easily overlooked. So, what does that mean? Its mostly an inspection.... that's all. Buyer beware.Interesting. So how do you get around the requirements of 43.9 for the work you are performing on the aircraft?
Yes but you also can't demand the seller fix everything. The plane market is hot and if you don't buy someone else will depending on price of course. I sold all three of my planes basically as is. The buyer had a pre buy preformed and after committed to go along and purchase the aircraft. You could spend a fortune flying around the country looking for that perfect plane but it's just not possible. You make educated guess on the suitability of the condition and buy or move on. Hem and haw and your going to lose out on a lot of deals.I made this mistake with my last purchase, a year ago. I sent a skilled (and independant) prebuy mechanic to do a PB for me. He did a good job, took lots of pics, and even found a few things that the owner didnt know about (like a mud dauber's nest in one of the ailerons). But after I got it home, THAT is when I found all the discrepancies. Lesson learned... BE THERE when the PB is occurring and question everything. Grab the exhaust and see if it moves. Take off the wheel pants and look at the tires and discs. Write up a pros and cons list of discrepancies. I found SO MANY ITEMS that were easily overlooked. So, what does that mean? Its mostly an inspection.... that's all. Buyer beware.
Except your regulatory requirement is to enter the mx tasks in the mx record (43.9). The owners reg equirement is to ensure you make those mx entries in the record (91.405) and maintain the mx record (91.417). Whether the owner includes your "sticker or w.o." in the mx record is not your regulatory resposibility but theirs. However, if you make no entry for the work performed then you'll own it before the owner will. Something to think about.i can’t write in Records I don’t have.
The sticker or w.o.is for the owner to put in with the rest of the Records.
Will it happen?
You can’t force an owner to do anything. Its his show. But you can document the work in a manner you find acceptable and give it to him. For example, before labels became the rage, I kept a stack of logbook sized lined cardstock complete with my business logo at the top in my toolbox. If no mx record available, I’d make the entry on the card(s) and give it to the owner or leave it in the aircraft. If I felt it necessary, I’d also get a copy of the card or pic with a camera or phone.I make an entry but I can’t force them to hand over Records.
Better ways of what?Are there better ways?
Still don’t follow what you mean by “exit”... but any 43.9 entry you make and approve for return to service only applies to the specific work you performed and is so stated in 43.9. So if the owner did anything else on the aircraft improperly, its not your issue.Better ways to exit after giving some type of entry to owner. I’m sure many Techs has unknowingly signed off aircraft that had Cylinders , mags carbs etc that were “ fixed “ by the owner.