PRE Buy Inspection

dnbshp

Filing Flight Plan
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DON B
Does anyone have a good recommendation for an A&P in the Hawthorne/LAX CA area for a prebuy on a Cherokee six-300?
 
My suggestion is to pick a AP that will do your MX work on it also.
This plus if I ever buy another plane I'm skipping the pre buy and having an annual preformed. That is a cursory pre buy then if looks good straight to an annual. Got stuck on a plane once that I had a pre buy inspection done then later an annual that exposed stuff that the pre buy missed.
 
Ben's at KFUL 714-396-6090

He is just a few miles east of Hawthorne. Like all of them, he is pretty busy though...
 
This plus if I ever buy another plane I'm skipping the pre buy and having an annual preformed. That is a cursory pre buy then if looks good straight to an annual. Got stuck on a plane once that I had a pre buy inspection done then later an annual that exposed stuff that the pre buy missed.
so you're gonna pay for an annual when an annual wouldn't be legally required to check for the things a pre - buy would?

you could put it as a contingency but who pays if you walk away? Could the previous owner count that?

just wanting to understand your thought process and why an owner would allow you to tear up his AC and maybe cost $$$ to fix the descripencies.
 
so you're gonna pay for an annual when an annual wouldn't be legally required to check for the things a pre - buy would?

you could put it as a contingency but who pays if you walk away? Could the previous owner count that?

just wanting to understand your thought process and why an owner would allow you to tear up his AC and maybe cost $$$ to fix the descripencies.
well my pre buy didn't catch what an annual would. Maybe you can say I had a poor pre buy? But a pre buy at least mine doesn't inspect the plane like an annual does. Do a pre buy inspection then if it passes roll it into a annual. If a annual turns up discrepancies then decide on a purchase or walk away. All paid by the buyer.

My case the pre buy didn't discover leaking fuel lines and old rock hard bladder tank connections simply because the headliner wasn't removed. Didn't catch corroded trim cables and other problems. Very possibly I had a poor pre buy but most pre buys don't inspect the plane like an annual does otherwise they'd cost as much as a annual does.

What I'm saying is my pre buy the plane wasn't "open up" like a normal annual does. The headliner wasn't removed like a normal annual. The gasolater wasn't opened and inspected (corroded). Not all the inspection covers removed, some were some weren't. More a cursory inspection.
Just saying for me it's money well spent even if you walk away.
 
I've used Owen Poirier, Barefoot Aviation, on two pre-buys. He performs pre-buys exclusively and travels to the location of the aircraft. He saved me quite a bit by avoiding a purchase on one C210 and finding a few items on the one I purchased that, the cost to repair, was factored in to the final purchase price. Excellent service, IME.
 
What airplane routinely requires the removal of the Headliner for an

Annual Inspection?

It should be noted it is up to the Buyer to dictate the scope of a Pre-Buy

to determine if it is a sound Financial Deal. Things like worn or faded

upholstery and runs in paint can be more expensive than an engine

overhaul.

A Buyer that tells the Tech to check “ whatever you think “ is foolish

and if the Tech accepts that the Financial Liability is huge. With an Annual

there is guidance for scope and detail. A “ simple “ thing like “ any

corrosion?” could entail scoping the interior of flight controls and other

in- depth checks.


Some items I’ve used for PB’s and the first Annual are the Airworthiness

Alerts and Inspection Aids. These go back a long ways and reflect

items found. Not all become AD’s or SB’s. I’ve thought about compiling

them by model but it is another daunting task.


My preference is to have the Buyer present and ask “what else do you

want me to check?”. The Buyer would do well to contact a Type Club

on this matter as well.


The Seller should determine what would happen if the deal falls apart

due to a finding. Will the Buyer pay to reassemble the aircraft ?

Assuring one area is addressed and closed before moving to the next

task can minimize this. I’ve seen Buyers walk out and refuse to pay the

Tech ; who also promptly departed!
 
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This plus if I ever buy another plane I'm skipping the pre buy and having an annual preformed.
In my experience, its not the type of inspection but who is preforming it. If you have some 3rd party mechanic perform your prebuy or annual, there is no guarantee when you get that aircraft back home and have your mechanic or shop perform its next mx or annual that everything will be good either. What is considered airworthy is both objective and subjective to the person performing the work. And as to a seller allowing an annual to be performed as part of the prebuy without some sort of agreement or understanding with the buyer would not be the wisest thing to do and one I do not recommend unless you're in escrow or something as binding.
 
Things like worn or faded

upholstery and runs in paint can be more expensive than an engine

overhaul.
if by overhaul you mean zero time an engine I don't think you have priced an 'overhaul' recently.
 
In my experience, its not the type of inspection but who is preforming it. If you have some 3rd party mechanic perform your prebuy or annual, there is no guarantee when you get that aircraft back home and have your mechanic or shop perform its next mx or annual that everything will be good either. What is considered airworthy is both objective and subjective to the person performing the work.
My experience: 100%. A third party mech, even a good one, doesn't have to see eye-to-eye with your mech.
I got burned pretty hard by that in 2020. Used a 3rd party one for logistical reasons, and once it got home to my homebase mech the deficiencies list was substantially larger and I was substantially poorer :)
 
“How much for a PB?” is often how these things begin.

When the reply of “What do you want me to do?” Is countered with

“Whatever you think you should do.” and the drama unfolds.

There are many ways to do a PB but it can be a dangerous undertaking.

What IS required is a firm understanding of what is to be accomplished

and by whom. There is no FAA defined “PB Inspection” so it’s up to the

Buyer to dictate the scope of the task. Obviously; this determines the cost.

The Tech has to be wary and avoid making any statements that would

“guarantee” the aircraft and resulting financial liability of condition.


A PB can take as little as 4 hours. That would allow for compression and

screen check as well as a somewhat cursory look at the aircraft with few

panels opened and the paperwork untouched.

Or you can do an in- depth assessment of all areas in 40+ hours depending

on type. What was the “ understanding”?


One option is to have the buyers home mechanic examine all the records

to start the process. He/she can then make recommendations on what

items to check. Pix, vids, FaceTime or Skype may be helpful here.

YMMV
 
“How much for a PB?” is often how these things begin.

When the reply of “What do you want me to do?” Is countered with

“Whatever you think you should do.” and the drama unfolds.

There are many ways to do a PB but it can be a dangerous undertaking.

What IS required is a firm understanding of what is to be accomplished

and by whom. There is no FAA defined “PB Inspection” so it’s up to the

Buyer to dictate the scope of the task. Obviously; this determines the cost.

The Tech has to be wary and avoid making any statements that would

“guarantee” the aircraft and resulting financial liability of condition.


A PB can take as little as 4 hours. That would allow for compression and

screen check as well as a somewhat cursory look at the aircraft with few

panels opened and the paperwork untouched.

Or you can do an in- depth assessment of all areas in 40+ hours depending

on type. What was the “ understanding”?


One option is to have the buyers home mechanic examine all the records

to start the process. He/she can then make recommendations on what

items to check. Pix, vids, FaceTime or Skype may be helpful here.

YMMV
So I got knocked on another comment I made but your saying a PB can be anything from yea it looks good to it’s a airworthy plane?
I’ll say it again and why not have an annual preformed if the cursory look passed and have the A&P sign his name on the logs attesting that the aircraft IS airworthy.

Does a pre buy catch all the deficiencies that an annual does? If not why use a pre buy in the first case?
 
Does a pre buy catch all the deficiencies that an annual does? If not why use a pre buy in the first case?
A pre buy is not an annual; it is a cursory inspection looking at the logs/powerplant and airframe for known concerns for that airframe/engine and any areas of concerns that could affect airworthiness or incur large expenses. What I ask for is a logbook review looking for AD compliance, engine check consisting of draining the oil/screen and/or filter check, compression and borescope, ground run for full power/mag checks/prop cycling/removing various inspection panels and direct/borescope exam for corrosion /damaged structural elements, Avionics power-up, ground check. I have the inspector call me if they hit any significant concerns and decide whether or not to proceed or $hi+ can the inspection. I've had two of the latter that saved me major $$$$ by passing on aircraft that had impressive logs that misrepresented the actual condition. No prebuy can predict, with certainty, all the items that can come back and bite you later, but, I view it as a reasonable risk reduction process for one who can't devote the time to do the inspection myself.
 
A pre buy is not an annual; it is a cursory inspection looking at the logs/powerplant and airframe for known concerns for that airframe/engine and any areas of concerns that could affect airworthiness or incur large expenses. What I ask for is a logbook review looking for AD compliance, engine check consisting of draining the oil/screen and/or filter check, compression and borescope, ground run for full power/mag checks/prop cycling/removing various inspection panels and direct/borescope exam for corrosion /damaged structural elements, Avionics power-up, ground check. I have the inspector call me if they hit any significant concerns and decide whether or not to proceed or $hi+ can the inspection. I've had two of the latter that saved me major $$$$ by passing on aircraft that had impressive logs that misrepresented the actual condition. No prebuy can predict, with certainty, all the items that can come back and bite you later, but, I view it as a reasonable risk reduction process for one who can't devote the time to do the inspection myself.
Yes get a pre buy and if passes then roll into an annual. There was a Mooney dealer that did that for his buyers. Used a well regarded Mooney shop.
 
Bone: Are you saying I knocked you? No intent to do so.

You can roll a PB into an Annual”, maybe.

If I travel to do this my allowed time in a shop will be limited

and possibly not even allowed. Are jacks available? What parts would I

have to plan on? For me it’s rare to look at a new to me aircraft w/o

finding squawks that would preclude me from signing the Annual.

I like Robin’s example of how to handle this.


There are times the Sellers shop is totally uncooperative and may even

insist on proof of insurance before any operation. Still others that have

airline service require TSA class to enter the premises.Best to check.

If at all possible I have the Seller fly an ILS with me. Just because it’s

installed doesn’t mean it works. It the needles are unresponsive it can

cost $$ and frustration.


Many possible situations here. Again YMMV
 
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so you're gonna pay for an annual when an annual wouldn't be legally required to check for the things a pre - buy would?

you could put it as a contingency but who pays if you walk away? Could the previous owner count that?

just wanting to understand your thought process and why an owner would allow you to tear up his AC and maybe cost $$$ to fix the descripencies.
Welcome to the REAL world of airplane buying and selling. We are talking about 40 and 50-year-old airplanes that have had 40 and 50 years to accumulate plenty of corrosion, cracks, bad repairs, no in-depth inspections, and so lots of nasty stuff can show up in an airplane that has been getting $800 annuals for a long time. I have encountered way too many airplanes where the interior has NEVER been out for a look at the structure, controls cables and pulleys, hydraulic and fuel lines, and wiring. I have crawled under instrument panels to find vacuum central and relief valve filters rotted away. That takes many years. I have found the controls chafing wiring and fluid lines. I have found fuel strainer bowls seized to the strainer body because they haven't been off in decades for screen and bowl cleaning. Found loose control surface hinge hardware. Found fuel hoses so old they're solid like wood, and their steel braiding rusting. Found the wrong fittings in the fuel system.

How much stuff like that have YOU found on small aircraft? What experience do you speak from?

Edit:

"so you're gonna pay for an annual when an annual wouldn't be legally required to check for the things a pre - buy would?"
Where are the legal requirements for a prebuy inspection? You will search for a long time for those.

On the other hand, the legal requirements for an annual are here, and routinely flouted by some mechanics and owners:

FAR 43

Appendix D to Part 43 - Scope and Detail of Items (as Applicable to the Particular Aircraft) To Be Included in Annual and 100-Hour Inspections

(a) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall, before that inspection, remove or open all necessary inspection plates, access doors, fairing, and cowling. He shall thoroughly clean the aircraft and aircraft engine.

(b) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) the following components of the fuselage and hull group:
(1) Fabric and skin - for deterioration, distortion, other evidence of failure, and defective or insecure attachment of fittings.
(2) Systems and components - for improper installation, apparent defects, and unsatisfactory operation.
(3) Envelope, gas bags, ballast tanks, and related parts - for poor condition.

(c) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) the following components of the cabin and cockpit group:
(1) Generally - for uncleanliness and loose equipment that might foul the controls.
(2) Seats and safety belts - for poor condition and apparent defects.
(3) Windows and windshields - for deterioration and breakage.
(4) Instruments - for poor condition, mounting, marking, and (where practicable) improper operation.
(5) Flight and engine controls - for improper installation and improper operation.
(6) Batteries - for improper installation and improper charge.
(7) All systems - for improper installation, poor general condition, apparent and obvious defects, and insecurity of attachment.

(d) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) components of the engine and nacelle group as follows:
(1) Engine section - for visual evidence of excessive oil, fuel, or hydraulic leaks, and sources of such leaks.
(2) Studs and nuts - for improper torquing and obvious defects.
(3) Internal engine - for cylinder compression and for metal particles or foreign matter on screens and sump drain plugs. If there is weak cylinder compression, for improper internal condition and improper internal tolerances.
(4) Engine mount - for cracks, looseness of mounting, and looseness of engine to mount.
(5) Flexible vibration dampeners - for poor condition and deterioration.
(6) Engine controls - for defects, improper travel, and improper safetying.
(7) Lines, hoses, and clamps - for leaks, improper condition and looseness.
(8) Exhaust stacks - for cracks, defects, and improper attachment.
(9) Accessories - for apparent defects in security of mounting.
(10) All systems - for improper installation, poor general condition, defects, and insecure attachment.
(11) Cowling - for cracks, and defects.

(e) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) the following components of the landing gear group:
(1) All units - for poor condition and insecurity of attachment.
(2) Shock absorbing devices - for improper oleo fluid level.
(3) Linkages, trusses, and members - for undue or excessive wear fatigue, and distortion.
(4) Retracting and locking mechanism - for improper operation.
(5) Hydraulic lines - for leakage.
(6) Electrical system - for chafing and improper operation of switches.
(7) Wheels - for cracks, defects, and condition of bearings.
(8) Tires - for wear and cuts.
(9) Brakes - for improper adjustment.
(10) Floats and skis - for insecure attachment and obvious or apparent defects.

(f) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) all components of the wing and center section assembly for poor general condition, fabric or skin deterioration, distortion, evidence of failure, and insecurity of attachment.

(g) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) all components and systems that make up the complete empennage assembly for poor general condition, fabric or skin deterioration, distortion, evidence of failure, insecure attachment, improper component installation, and improper component operation.

(h) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) the following components of the propeller group:
(1) Propeller assembly - for cracks, nicks, binds, and oil leakage.
(2) Bolts - for improper torquing and lack of safetying.
(3) Anti-icing devices - for improper operations and obvious defects.
(4) Control mechanisms - for improper operation, insecure mounting, and restricted travel.

(i) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) the following components of the radio group:
(1) Radio and electronic equipment - for improper installation and insecure mounting.
(2) Wiring and conduits - for improper routing, insecure mounting, and obvious defects.
(3) Bonding and shielding - for improper installation and poor condition.
(4) Antenna including trailing antenna - for poor condition, insecure mounting, and improper operation.
(j) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall inspect (where applicable) each installed miscellaneous item that is not otherwise covered by this listing for improper installation and improper operation.


Now read that line-by-line and tell me how all that stuff can be inspected without opening everything up. And just so no one can claim ignorance, lines c7 and d10 says "all systems." That means everything, everywhere. Far beyond a typical prebuy.
 
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Actually, a little more. FAR 43.15 C2 requires an engine run to check parameters too.
 
Does a pre buy catch all the deficiencies that an annual does?
No. Nor would it be expected to. The prebuy has no standard and is not regulatory, and an annual has a minimum standard and is regulatory.
If not why use a pre buy in the first case?
Simply because they serve different purposes. But even if the seller did allow an annual to used as a prebuy, its not a 100% guarantee when you take the aircraft home the next mechanic will not find something wrong either. Or another option is to buy at an aircraft condition/price level where a prebuy is not even needed.
 
My take is to start with big buck items first.

Run or fly,,comp check and screen / filter.

Dirty ( normal) oil is good. Clean ( new) is a red flag.

Unfortunately; if I find metal it just gets cleaned for the next prospect.

Really can’t put anything in log..

Sticky on wing for tasks?

Yes; there are folks like this.


Another point is my belief that PB findings are any buyer who paid and

deferred. Sellers want me to share with every prospect, free!
 
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Interesting. So how do you get around the requirements of 43.9 for the work you are performing on the aircraft?
I made this mistake with my last purchase, a year ago. I sent a skilled (and independant) prebuy mechanic to do a PB for me. He did a good job, took lots of pics, and even found a few things that the owner didnt know about (like a mud dauber's nest in one of the ailerons). But after I got it home, THAT is when I found all the discrepancies. Lesson learned... BE THERE when the PB is occurring and question everything. Grab the exhaust and see if it moves. Take off the wheel pants and look at the tires and discs. Write up a pros and cons list of discrepancies. I found SO MANY ITEMS that were easily overlooked. So, what does that mean? Its mostly an inspection.... that's all. Buyer beware.
 
I made this mistake with my last purchase, a year ago. I sent a skilled (and independant) prebuy mechanic to do a PB for me. He did a good job, took lots of pics, and even found a few things that the owner didnt know about (like a mud dauber's nest in one of the ailerons). But after I got it home, THAT is when I found all the discrepancies. Lesson learned... BE THERE when the PB is occurring and question everything. Grab the exhaust and see if it moves. Take off the wheel pants and look at the tires and discs. Write up a pros and cons list of discrepancies. I found SO MANY ITEMS that were easily overlooked. So, what does that mean? Its mostly an inspection.... that's all. Buyer beware.
Yes but you also can't demand the seller fix everything. The plane market is hot and if you don't buy someone else will depending on price of course. I sold all three of my planes basically as is. The buyer had a pre buy preformed and after committed to go along and purchase the aircraft. You could spend a fortune flying around the country looking for that perfect plane but it's just not possible. You make educated guess on the suitability of the condition and buy or move on. Hem and haw and your going to lose out on a lot of deals.
 
We did a four step pre-buy when looking for a Mooney 201.

1.) Our mechanic reviews logs, if he likes what he sees, we
2.) Pull the belly pans and inspect the bottom of the aircraft, if he likes what he sees, we
3.) Pull the wing, empennage, and fuselage inspection panels, if he likes what he sees, we
4.) Get an annual

Airplanes 1 & 2 were rejected at step 2. Both had obvious gear up damage, both were advertised as "NDH", and no evidence of repairs in the log.

Airplane 3 was rejected at step 3. Our mechanic found a major repair in the left wing. Again, plane advertised as "NDH" and no evidence of repairs in the logs. We asked the owner, he said the airplane hit a pole. We asked further about the accident, what was inspected, and why repairs were not noted in the log. Answer: "I don't know"

Airplane 4 passes 1-3, seller agrees to #4. Our mechanic finds two airworthiness discrepancies and two "Would be good to fix" recommendations, but otherwise says "You're getting a really solid aircraft." Seller agrees to pay to repair two airworthiness issues and declines to pay for the would be nice items. We call it fair and buy the airplane.

Seventeen years later it's still a really solid aircraft.
 
i can’t write in Records I don’t have.

The sticker or w.o.is for the owner to put in with the rest of the Records.

Will it happen?
 
i can’t write in Records I don’t have.

The sticker or w.o.is for the owner to put in with the rest of the Records.

Will it happen?
Except your regulatory requirement is to enter the mx tasks in the mx record (43.9). The owners reg equirement is to ensure you make those mx entries in the record (91.405) and maintain the mx record (91.417). Whether the owner includes your "sticker or w.o." in the mx record is not your regulatory resposibility but theirs. However, if you make no entry for the work performed then you'll own it before the owner will. Something to think about.
 
There are times someone wants only certain tasks done such as a

compression and screen check. I make an entry but I can’t force them to

hand over Records.

There are also those times I call “walkaways” where the owner

has done tasks that are not PM or were done in non-approved fashion.

Ie The owner has installed cylinders. Generally I try to have a witness

and say something like “ The way you want to do things and and the way

I have to do things are not compatible so I’m out of here”. In short;

I fire them. Doesn’t happen often but I’d rather lose a few $$ then

participate in fiascos. Are there better ways?
 
Most good shops that do prebuy will give you a good idea of what they check for. IFR plane few prebuy shops are able to check avionics or even have a test set for VOR/ ILS transponder, autopilot ect and that stuff can run tens of thousands to fix, an hour of a avionics shop inspection could save you big bucks . The price of the inspection can very from a few hundred to thousands and the complex of the aircraft inspected. Point is you get what you pay for a cheap prebuy is worth what you pay for it.
 
I’ve found things like autopilots installed with no Record Entry.

Oddly Buyer was upset with me as I also wrote up runs in paint

on PB!
 
I make an entry but I can’t force them to hand over Records.
You can’t force an owner to do anything. Its his show. But you can document the work in a manner you find acceptable and give it to him. For example, before labels became the rage, I kept a stack of logbook sized lined cardstock complete with my business logo at the top in my toolbox. If no mx record available, I’d make the entry on the card(s) and give it to the owner or leave it in the aircraft. If I felt it necessary, I’d also get a copy of the card or pic with a camera or phone.

Are there better ways?
Better ways of what?
 
Better ways to exit after giving some type of entry to owner.

I’m sure many Techs has unknowingly signed off aircraft that had

Cylinders , mags carbs etc that were “ fixed “ by the owner.

I signed off an Annual after one of these had repaired prop tips with Bondo.

No way to tell under paint .

Fortunately some friends told me about it.

The owner didn’t believe he could face criminal charges!
 
Better ways to exit after giving some type of entry to owner. I’m sure many Techs has unknowingly signed off aircraft that had Cylinders , mags carbs etc that were “ fixed “ by the owner.
Still don’t follow what you mean by “exit”... but any 43.9 entry you make and approve for return to service only applies to the specific work you performed and is so stated in 43.9. So if the owner did anything else on the aircraft improperly, its not your issue.

Now if you are signing off a 43.11 inspection write up like for an annual or 100hr, then technically you are accepting the airworthiness of the entire aircraft up to the date you sign it to include the owners or anyone else's work. However, given Part 43 is a "performance standard," anybody who did perform improper mx on an aircraft can still be held accountable for that work. So to use your bondo example, you won't be standing alone at the inquisition as the owner will be standing next to you as well. That’s partly why there are separate rules/requirements for mx record entries.
 
I tell prospective clients that my prebuy is really looking for things that will bite the owner in the next 5-10 years. An annual is getting the plane to a minimum-good state next year.

In practice that means that I'm not looking at every cosmetic blemish, smoking rivet, or dry zerk that need greased. I call them out when they're obviously deficient, but it's not the primary goal.

The goal is to say "hey this plane has been neglected here, here, and here, and while it is airworthy today (assuming that it is :) ), you have some serious $$ coming due that you need to plan accordingly for" -- and call out high and low points in the logbooks and aircraft, then compare to seller representations and buyer expectations. It's sort of a "zero set" of plane status, similar to taking a plane to a new shop for annual. They will also want a fresh account of ADs, times, and significant events with the plane's history. I also think that I do a better job than most shops at calling out alternatives/repairs/upgrades, insurance, and common errors of new ownership in my specialty.

The better annual shops have their eye on the longterm horizon also and keep their owners informed. Joe Purchaser may not know those shops, and that's how people find the prebuy folks for the type of plane.

I always liked the "swiss cheese" theory of covering maintenance things with different sets of eyes to get total coverage. I'm just a slice of swiss like any other when I perform a prebuy.

$0.02
 
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