possible stupid question

KiloCharlie

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KiloCharlie
I've always thought i could go

PPL -> instrument -> single engine commercial -> CFI?

now i'm second guessing myself...


also anyone know an approximate cost for single engine commercial, my school doesn't advertise one only multi
 
I've always thought i could go

PPL -> instrument -> single engine commercial -> CFI?

now i'm second guessing myself...


also anyone know an approximate cost for single engine commercial, my school doesn't advertise one only multi

You can do that. No one said you had to have a ME commercial to get a CFI.
 
I can tell you it will be much cheaper to go the "single engine commercial" route first to get that new certificate, and then do a multi-engine add on (if you want that....). The multi-engine add on will probably only be the same checkride, but with a multi engine airplane (and anything specific to multi-engine planes)

That is because it will be cheaper to meet the time requirements paying single engine rates.

Cost is very hard to estimate without any more detail. Do you already have an instrument rating? Really depends on how much flight experience you have. Could be "cheap" to learn a few commercial maneuvers, or could be expensive if you still have 100 hours to go.
 
I did it the way that way. In fact, I did the ME comm add-on oral portion that afternoon of my SE comm. Flight portion the net afternoon including the ME IR.
 
I did Private -> Instrument ->SEL commercial -> MEL add-on (with Inst priv) -> CFI. The reason most pilot-mills don't advertise the SEL commercial is they make more money if you do the commercial/ME together with a lot of the commercial stuff in the multi. And frankly it's hard to keep the dwindling fleet of complex singles available and insurable for flight schools. Not that there's a huge shortage of Arrows and Sierras and others, but lots of them are in private hands and they don't want training done in them. Recently I heard an insurance broker say it's more expensive to get coverage on an Arrow than a Seminole of the same age if you're a flight school.

I'm gonna do CFII (maybe 5 flights dual and the ride) and then the MEI (weekend).

I think I'll do three of the five CFII flights in the Redbird FMX with two in the airplane.
 
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I've always thought i could go

PPL -> instrument -> single engine commercial -> CFI?

now i'm second guessing myself...


also anyone know an approximate cost for single engine commercial, my school doesn't advertise one only multi

You can got that route, no worries, what part of it are you second guessing?

Commercial SEL is $2275 at Sheble's and $3000 for SEL + SES which is what I did in a Lake LA-4 200

My path was PPSEL PPMEL CPMEL CPSEL&SES IA
 
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I've always thought i could go

PPL -> instrument -> single engine commercial -> CFI?

Most people do it that way.

The only real advantage to doing the ME before Commercial is that by the time you have your Commercial, you have alot more ME time than most people who get the ME as an addon after the Comm SEL. That in itself won't get you a job, but will give you a teensy leg up if your goal is professional flying.

Don't let anyone try to tell you it is cheaper to do the multi first though - alot of schools will try to say that, but it is pure BS.
 
Most people do it that way.

The only real advantage to doing the ME before Commercial is that by the time you have your Commercial, you have alot more ME time than most people who get the ME as an addon after the Comm SEL. That in itself won't get you a job, but will give you a teensy leg up if your goal is professional flying.

Don't let anyone try to tell you it is cheaper to do the multi first though - alot of schools will try to say that, but it is pure BS.

Well, it was advantageous to me since I bought a twin with 60 hrs...;)
 
I would say if you are trying to be competitive for the airlines, and money isn't a factor, go Multi Engine the entire way through.
 
Well, it was advantageous to me since I bought a twin with 60 hrs...;)

Well, there are always exceptions!

I too did my multi first as a PP, but I did it because at the time I had no plans to go on to get the Commercial and my motivation was I needed the ME rating first in order to get the DC-3 rating.

I am very glad that I did the ME first, but it was definitely not kinder on my bank account!
 
In a King Air 90 or something similar:rofl:


;)

Random Side note, but I would like to meet someone who got a Multi-Engine class rating first on their initial private pilot certificate instead of the normal single-engine. Doing a single-engine add on to a private, would be funny to me.
 
;)

Random Side note, but I would like to meet someone who got a Multi-Engine class rating first on their initial private pilot certificate instead of the normal single-engine. Doing a single-engine add on to a private, would be funny to me.

Danny Kaye got his initial PP in an Aztec IIRC.
 
I know someone who did that. She was l-o-a-d-e-d, money-wise. Flying for some airline somewhere makin' $17/Hr now, I'm sure. ;)


Seems to follow that saying... "In order to make a small fortune in Aviation, start with a large fortune" :goofy:
 
I'm not a CFI, but here are my thoughts....

It depends if you are an independent CFI or if you work for a school. Most schools I've seen charge maybe $35-$40 per hour for instruction, and i'll bet the CFI see's half of that at best.

If you are independent, and have a real specialty (a very specific, high performance plane? idk), even in a single engine, you could probably charge $50+ per hour and get it, all for yourself. but "full time"?

How many hours a week does a "full time" instructor reallly work? Depending on the type of students you want to teach, weather could really hurt you money/time wise.

How old are you? What are your goals with this? Just curious what you are working towards.
 
I'm not a CFI, but here are my thoughts....

It depends if you are an independent CFI or if you work for a school. Most schools I've seen charge maybe $35-$40 per hour for instruction, and i'll bet the CFI see's half of that at best.

If you are independent, and have a real specialty (a very specific, high performance plane? idk), even in a single engine, you could probably charge $50+ per hour and get it, all for yourself. but "full time"?

How many hours a week does a "full time" instructor reallly work? Depending on the type of students you want to teach, weather could really hurt you money/time wise.

How old are you? What are your goals with this? Just curious what you are working towards.

I'm 25, have a communications degree, and have been in sales coaching for 3 years. I ABSOLUTELY hate it. So when my fioncee said hey hunny i got a job 1400 miles away from home in new orleans. i said, well i am going to be a pilot...

We have a couple back home that we are real close to (we are only here for 5 years since she is on a grant funded project). And he wants to open a flight school (he has PPL and Instrument). So basically when I get back home I like to be able to start that with him. Or the other option is working for the same large corportation i work for now, as a corporate pilot.

Just asking because i'd like to be able to support children in 5 years and I'm guessing she will be in a PHD program at that point, so i may be the only one with an income.

Being and becoming a pilot is probably one of the most vague things when you don't know anyone who does it professionally... So hopefully this board will help with that problem
 
Just asking because i'd like to be able to support children in 5 years and I'm guessing she will be in a PHD program at that point, so i may be the only one with an income.
Not bashing professional flying - but just based on the quote above, you need to seriously look for a career outside of professional flying. You will most likely be seriously struggling to support a family with kids and a wife doing a PHD with only a flying paycheck. It is possible to make money flying, but really unlikely to get to the point where you can accomplish the family support goal in 5 years.

Right now, there are lots of folks with 2-3000 hrs and plenty of turbine and ME time that are competing for 25K-40K per year jobs.
 
Not bashing professional flying - but just based on the quote above, you need to seriously look for a career outside of professional flying. You will most likely be seriously struggling to support a family with kids and a wife doing a PHD with only a flying paycheck. It is possible to make money flying, but really unlikely to get to the point where you can accomplish the family support goal in 5 years.

Right now, there are lots of folks with 2-3000 hrs and plenty of turbine and ME time that are competing for 25K-40K per year jobs.


that absolutely amazes me, I don't even have a PPL and I have studied and worked harder than I did for any class in college. And as soon as I get a piece of paper someone gives me 65k with no experience
 
KiloCharlie, You might be able to find good paying jobs in cargo flights, or private business/corporate flying, but Airlines don't pay well for new pilots, if you can get a job.

If you are a member of AOPA, go read the "Career Advisor" section by Wayne Phllips in the "Flight Training" magazine. If you arent a member, i really recommend it. According to Wayne Phillips, a copilot job at a regional airline will only pay about $18,000 a year. And if you don't even have a PPL yet, you are looking at, at LEAST $40,000 in training just to get to a CFI level. I don't know if you have any student loans, but, getting in debt by another $40K, paying student loans, making $18K a year trying to support a family, it will be an unbelievable struggle. If you are flying for airlines, it'll take at least 6 years for an airline salary to catch up to your 65k salary. So i'm told.

As far as, a full time, professional career in flight instruction. Depends on you, and how you go about it. Might be tough starting out though.
 
KiloCharlie, You might be able to find good paying jobs in cargo flights, or private business/corporate flying, but Airlines don't pay well for new pilots, if you can get a job.

If you are a member of AOPA, go read the "Career Advisor" section by Wayne Phllips in the "Flight Training" magazine. If you arent a member, i really recommend it. According to Wayne Phillips, a copilot job at a regional airline will only pay about $18,000 a year. And if you don't even have a PPL yet, you are looking at, at LEAST $40,000 in training just to get to a CFI level. I don't know if you have any student loans, but, getting in debt by another $40K, paying student loans, making $18K a year trying to support a family, it will be an unbelievable struggle. If you are flying for airlines, it'll take at least 6 years for an airline salary to catch up to your 65k salary. So i'm told.

As far as, a full time, professional career in flight instruction. Depends on you, and how you go about it. Might be tough starting out though.

I'm not your usual "i wanna fly for the airlines" type guy... my dream is to fly float plane tours, but i'm sure i'll save that for retirement... I'd love to fly cargo or corporate... i'm thinking i can stay with my company now and get into corporate, I work for att
 
KiloCharlie, You might be able to find good paying jobs in cargo flights, or private business/corporate flying, but Airlines don't pay well for new pilots, if you can get a job.

Actually, it isn't just the 121 jobs that are bad right now. The statement I made about guys with 2-3000 hrs competing for low paying jobs applies to corporate and cargo flying stuff too. It is that tough these days - just take a look at the job boards on places like Pro Pilot World. It isn't impossible to get a job, but it is tough and furlough opportunities are just as high in the corporate and cargo world as they are in 121.

Pro flying can be fun and rewarding, but not something I would recommend for someone trying to break into while supporting a family on that income alone.

As far as full time instructing goes, I know a ton of instructors here in SoCal and across the country. There are plenty of guys who make a living doing it full time, but they are all young and single. The only guys I know who do it with families have other sources of income.
 
that absolutely amazes me, I don't even have a PPL and I have studied and worked harder than I did for any class in college. And as soon as I get a piece of paper someone gives me 65k with no experience
What industry is that?
 
I'm not your usual "i wanna fly for the airlines" type guy... my dream is to fly float plane tours, but i'm sure i'll save that for retirement... I'd love to fly cargo or corporate... i'm thinking i can stay with my company now and get into corporate, I work for att

Most backcountry pilots I know do it for the "love of flying", already own their aircraft outright (no loans) and the land their bases are on. Pilots for larger backcountry operations typically have either years and years of experience, and are paid mediocrely or are complete newbies living in shared quarters/bunkhouses with other youngsters. Dragging a family into that world is really hard.

Benefits are virtually unheard of. If you think being broke is bad, try broke and sick.

Cargo and corporate folks usually have thousands, and more often tens of thousands of hours in specific type aircraft the company "needs" and they knew someone personally to get a recommendation to work for that company.

Not trying to dash your dreams, but the sacrifice level is exceedingly high in aviation for a living.

My first flight instructor is now on wife #4 and flies 777s for Continental/United. But I saw his lean years.

He had ten years of flying experience instructing at a small nearly-always-bankrupt 2-year aviation college with virtually no pay to speak of. He was skinny and it wasn't by choice.

He worked hard, applied to an airline and got three years of Beech 1900 time, then a number of years on the ATR-42/72, then back to the bottom of the totem pole at Continental in 737s, 757/767, and eventually 777 First Officer. He will retire as an FO on that aircraft.

He continued to instruct on the side during the Commuter years. Most companies now make you sign that you won't do that, since they're worried you'll time yourself out. Maybe you could get away with it to get extra cash but not log it. I don't know.

He got lucky and never had a furlough. In the middle of all that I never once saw him drive a car newer than ten years old, he had a bout with cancer that could have ended his entire flying career cold, and debt...

He's a good friend and the only way he survived was to never pay for ANY flying with debt, ever. His houses and other things as he had to move around the country almost bankrupted him multiple times.

I share this not to discourage you but to give you a dose of reality. If you're willing to be dead-broke poor for 30 years, with a bit of fiscal success toward the very end IF you don't get furloughed/laid off... Flying is a great career with many rewarding days ahead.

He now has a nice house in Arizona, a Toyota pickup, a convertible for fun and a motorcycle. He still has to commute to Newark to go to work and he's only a few years from the new mandatory Part 121 retirement age of 65.

Flying for a living is a great way to be b-r-o-k-e but maybe happy. Make sure your wife's on board with the broke part, or you're in for a world of problems.
 
Sounds like I should just keep my day job til shes done with her PHD

For you, that sounds like a much better plan - keep working on the ratings now and build the time and experience, but what until she is getting a paycheck before you seriously venture into the world of pro-flying.
 
Sounds like I should just keep my day job til shes done with her PHD

Definitely... But it'll take you some time to get all the ratings and experience, especially if you're keeping your day job, so you can and should start flying now. In the process of "keeping my day job" I've averaged about 100 hours a year. That is, of course, >$10,000 per year for the most part, too! Figure that it'll probably take you 300 hours (~3 years, $30,000+) to get through your commercial ASEL, instrument, and CFI-IA ratings. Once that happens, you'll be able to build time faster and spend less money doing it because you'll have more excuses to fly and other people paying the airplane bill.

To get to the point where you can fly "Part 135" (charter), you generally need a minimum of 1200 hours, and I bet your wife will have her PhD before you get there.

So, keep the day job and start flying now, and hopefully things will work out correctly so that by the time you're in a position to take your first low-paying flying job, she'll have the income to get you through the lean years.

Good luck!
 
Not bashing professional flying - but just based on the quote above, you need to seriously look for a career outside of professional flying. You will most likely be seriously struggling to support a family with kids and a wife doing a PHD with only a flying paycheck. It is possible to make money flying, but really unlikely to get to the point where you can accomplish the family support goal in 5 years.

Right now, there are lots of folks with 2-3000 hrs and plenty of turbine and ME time that are competing for 25K-40K per year jobs.


There's still plenty of $40k a week flying jobs out there....:idea:
 
Yeah, for one week a year.

Nope, they expect one trip a week... You can make infinitely more if you reinvest your earnings into the cargo, you can actually make about $10MM on your third trip if you invest wisely.
 
Nope, they expect one trip a week... You can make infinitely more if you reinvest your earnings into the cargo, you can actually make about $10MM on your third trip if you invest wisely.
And this is doing what?

What's the catch....there's always a catch!
 
He can't say on here, but it involves flying w/o a transponder, at night, and very very low to the ground. :D

Choose whatever method you please, you're PIC. There's an infinite variety of methods to use.
 
Ah, I see...I was afraid he was talking about flying for Barron Thomas.

Barron Thomas is an alter boy compared to the guys you'll work for in Calais. The downside is 15 years mandatory Fed time. There's 3 ways out, Dead, Prison, find your replacement. If you're flying twins out of SoCal, beware, the Feds will also walk up to you on the ramp and offer you the same deal...just don't go there, you can trust the boys in Calais a lot more than you can trust your government.
 
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