Plane into building

Discussion in 'Aviation Mishaps' started by pmanton, Sep 2, 2021.

  1. pmanton

    pmanton Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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  2. sourdough44

    sourdough44 Pattern Altitude

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    Reported to be 2 pilots, 2 passengers. I thought the runway was about 3650’ or so, didn’t look it up.

    Ok, 3665’, currently winds 010/12G19, rwy 02/20, winds a few hours after accident.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
  3. Lowflynjack

    Lowflynjack En-Route

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    From Facebook Page: Aviation Accidents/This Day in History.

    Cessna 560XLS+ Citation Excel N560AR

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel En-Route

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    Condolences to the victims and their families.
     
  5. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Pretty short runway for that plane.
     
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  6. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Does anyone have the takeoff performance tables from the POH for that aircraft?
     
  7. 1000RR

    1000RR Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Pulled this off the Cessna site...


    Performance.JPG
     
  8. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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  9. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The runway sits on a bit of a berm, the building they hit is a bit below grade of the airport.

    RiP.



    Btw. That was an expensive building to hit. It's a production facility for industrial cutting lasers.
     
  10. TrueCourse

    TrueCourse Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It appears the plane hit the building just a little right of the extended centerline. The NW corner of the building just above and to the right of the abbreviation “Rd” in the text 111 Hyde Rd address. Doesn’t matter except when pilots see the ‘crash site’ pinpoint and start asking why it veered way to the left, when in fact it didn’t.
     
  11. forsonsinc

    forsonsinc Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Fitting name there.

    Truecourse
     
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  12. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
  13. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Sounds like pretty reasonable margin to me.
     
  14. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    I don’t care what the numbers say. I have thousands of hours in the airplane, and 3600 feet does not have “reasonable margin” on a summer day.

    That’s my opinion, regardless of book numbers.
     
  15. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Of course I have no time in jets but here is how I would figure it in my Cardinal.

    What is the book takeoff distance - in this case perhaps 3190. add 50% is 4785. So we need to be careful here and figure it by the book.

    Koch chart says maybe 2% more needed for the DA. So 3253'. Of course, I don't know if the starting number here is over a 50' obstacle -- probably is.

    So I would get the POH and compute the ground run. Then figure out what the abort point is going to be. I mean the landing distance is listed as 3180, probably also over a 50' obstacle. It almost seems like you really can't safely take off from that field in this plane.
     
  16. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The takeoff field length in a jet includes engine failure distances (accelerate-stop and accelerate go—generally to 35 feet) in addition to all-engine takeoff. Landing distance is from 50 feet.
     
  17. Matthew Rogers

    Matthew Rogers Ejection Handle Pulled

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    On Reddit someone said it was from an engine out. So either it was dual engine out or some failure of takeoff distance, single engine procedures, etc. All speculation and no facts here.
     
  18. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Not a jet pilot, but the balanced field number I saw in one of the spec sheets was like 4600 feet. 3,100 is probably just the takeoff roll. Maybe one of you jet jockeys that are familiar can clarify.
     
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  19. Dana

    Dana Pattern Altitude

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    The local word in CT (which is probably as reliable as Reddit) is also that they lost both engines. How or why, unknown.
     
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  20. AKBill

    AKBill En-Route

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    A 2 engine out in a jet would be very unlikely
     
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  21. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Certainly two turbine engines out from mechanical failure seems exceedingly unlikely. Operator error causing two engines out - maybe.

    Does that type of plane have a CDR?
     
  22. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Truly, there is no way to even guess at this until more facts are known.
     
  23. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Misfueling with something other than jet-A or 100LL.
    There have now been two with DEF (waterous urea solution) being pumped into aircraft tanks.
     
  24. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    It’s been roughly 15 years since I’ve flown the airplane, so I’m perhaps not as sharp as some others on systems. That said, I don’t know any intricacies with the fuel system that would have caused this. I also don’t believe misfueling would be a culprit, as jet engines will run on anything that burns.

    Again, I can’t speculate, as few facts are in. That said, 3600 feet is one of the few facts, and I am suspicious of that.
     
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  25. TrueCourse

    TrueCourse Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Unless noted otherwise, a spec sheet typically uses standard (ISA) temperature, one particular weight (usually max takeoff weight), and other fixed criteria. Most reputable sources will use balanced field length, not takeoff roll. Jet pilots don’t necessarily need to know takeoff roll, since they really care about BFL. Takeoff calculations for a jet, like other aircraft, involve numerous inputs. Some jet aircraft have widely varying BFLs due to the fact that the amount of fuel carried and airport density altitudes can vary greatly. A takeoff BFL at light weight and standard temps might be 4000 feet while BFL at max weight and a hot summer day might be 7000 feet. Not sure if this answers your question or not.
     
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  26. donjohnston

    donjohnston Cleared for Takeoff

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    That never stopped anyone around here from coming up with a cause within 24 hours. :p
     
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  27. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    I think that DEF was added, in limited quantities, because it was mistaken for Prist.
     
  28. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yes, that has been a recent issue.

    In '85 and '92 there were two multi fatality skydiving plane accidents caused by fuel contamination. Shouldn't happen with professionally maintained FBO equipment and if procedures are adhered to, but no system is perfect.
     
  29. ldhilljr13

    ldhilljr13 Filing Flight Plan

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    A commenter on the Kathryn's Report states that there are tire marks 1,050 feet from the departure end of the runway, suggesting they were braking at that point. Someone else above has commented that the runway is somewhat elevated from the land beyond the departure end, so (assuming both of the foregoing are true), this plane may have rejected the takeoff, overrun the departure end, become airborne and hit the small grass field in front of the building before hitting the building itself.
     
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  30. Tools

    Tools Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Most of these are failure to put the flaps down...

    Go to rotate, nothing happens... everything seems fine...
     
  31. sourdough44

    sourdough44 Pattern Altitude

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  32. jpskies

    jpskies Pre-Flight PoA Supporter

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    My home base runway length is 3950. We have two 560XLS jets based here for years. It does not seem to be that bad at all to me every time they take off or landing.

    RIP...
     
  33. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy En-Route PoA Supporter

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    That’s what I heard was the issue. Very speculative though.
    Does this citation have a flight data recorder??
     
  34. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    I’m not saying it’s not possible.
    Please also remember just because the performance may meet the ground roll distance, does not mean it meets accelerate go/stop.
    I do not know upon which performance criteria they operate them.
     
  35. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    This may have been a recruitment trip.

    Or resident and pediatrician salaries in the northeast have really gone up...
     
  36. Rushie

    Rushie En-Route

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    Ah… took me a minute to figure out what you meant. Sad their baby lost both parents but I’m glad he wasn’t on the plane. I sure hope they did their wills. My daughter and SIL have two children now and haven’t! They’re in their early thirties too. You think you’re not gonna go at that age. I’ve nagged them about it as much as I dare. Go to LegalZoom and do it for $200 if you think you don’t have the time and money. No excuse. Sorry for the off topic rant but maybe it’ll plant a seed with any young parent here who hasn’t done that yet. You want the government deciding who gets custody of your kids?
     
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  37. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Both parents recent medical school graduates. The only thing the kid could inherit is a pile of educational debt. Of course, there could be generational wealth, but I know that when I was a fellow, all my kids would have inherited was a 10 year old Volvo.
    The only thing you have to put down on paper is the desired custody setup for the kid.
     
  38. Sam D

    Sam D Cleared for Takeoff

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    Some might consider that a whole lot more valuable than a pile of cash.
     
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  39. A Martin

    A Martin Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Last edited: Sep 5, 2021
  40. A Martin

    A Martin Pre-takeoff checklist

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    .

    yes ... and before they hit the grass they just barely overflew a small natural gas facility with valves and pipes above the ground ... that would have been a huge inferno .

    sidenote ... the crash site in post 3 shows it hit the Trumpf building on the left of Johnson ave .... it was actually the Trumpf building on the right that they hit.

    .