Plane in wires near KGAI (Montgomery County, MD)

Discussion in 'Aviation Mishaps' started by flyingron, Nov 27, 2022.

  1. Pugs

    Pugs Cleared for Takeoff

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    Yep. Multiple other fields close with lower approaches, KFDK, KHGR and KMRB and all are a short Uber ride home. No excuse to duck low on purpose but watching this makes me think he was so far behind the airplane he was a witness to the mishap and not PIC.

     
  2. Tobias Göller

    Tobias Göller Pre-takeoff checklist

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    ... that could be a reason for that, true
     
  3. Tobias Göller

    Tobias Göller Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Looks like he did spend too much energy on trying to get there...
     
  4. DenverJayhawk

    DenverJayhawk Filing Flight Plan

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    agreed 100%. What happens is you get so far behind the airplane (easy to do in a mooney under hard IMC) that it won't matter what electronic gadgetry you have, not to mention a radio warning from ATC that you're too low. Your mind simply cannot process any more information.

    I've seen this happen many times IFR students. I tell them that they are below altitude for a segment of the approach chart and they don't respond at alland just continue to descend or not make any correction. If it's safe, i'll let it go and see if they realize the mistake they made.
     
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  5. Tobias Göller

    Tobias Göller Pre-takeoff checklist

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    yep. he probably will need a lot of energy to get a new contract.....
     
  6. Tobias Göller

    Tobias Göller Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Hi

    Nah, don't think so. Trying to fly vfr using a tiny device that has something like synthetic vision in dogsh*t weather... that's probably not going to work unless you have goggles that will penetrate fog.

    I am currently training for my IFR... and I can tell you: IFR in VMC is easy. It really gets scary at times in really bad weather.

    It's dark, it's wet, you don't see a thing. It's ugly.

    But it's fun, too :)

    Tobias
     
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  7. Piperonca

    Piperonca Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    It can spark joy.
     
  8. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Bro do you even lift

    PoA should buy steingar's johnson bar mooney and convert it to electric gear mmmmwwaahahhahahaa
     
  9. flyingron

    flyingron Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    911 call says he had gone to the "minimum altitude but must have gone a bit lower. That's a bit of an understatement. Going 400' below the MDA is bad enough, but less than 200' AGL is full of uncharted obstacles like cellphone towers and stuff. The tower he hit (or one nearby in the same high-tension line) is even on the approach plate.

    Looking at the plane pictures, it looks like he might have snagged it with the tail. A little higher or lower, or if he'd been flying something with the tail the right way around might have missed it :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2022
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  10. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Not to distract from the thread.. and this is a minor point.

    But, I have been reading about the GTN750 lately and is it not true that at the map, a popup appears and you are offered "Remain Suspended" ie Suspend = no automatic wp sequencing, or the other option "Activate GPS Missed Approach" ie Not Suspended, but continue on to the first wp in the missed?

    So, the term Suspend means own nav, and Unsuspend means navigator-directed navigation?
    Thanks
     
  11. flyingron

    flyingron Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Here's the guy's previous accident (1992):

    THE PILOT OF THE PA-32R-300 ELECTED TO TURN INTO A BOX CANYON DURING HIS EN ROUTE CLIMB TO CRUISE. AT THE TIME HE TURNED INTO THE CANYON, THE PILOT FELT THAT THE RATE OF CLIMB WOULD ASSURE CLEARANCE OF THE RIDGE AT THE END OF THE CANYON. AFTER ENTERING THE CANYON THE AIRCRAFT ENCOUNTERED AN AREA OF DOWNDRAFTS. THE DESCENDING AIR REDUCED THE RATE OF CLIMB TO AN EXTENT THAT WOULD NOT ALLOW THE AIRCRAFT TO OUTCLIMB THE RISING TERRAIN. BY THIS TIME THE PILOT FELT THAT, BECAUSE OF THE NARROWNESS OF THE CANYON, HE COULD NOT SUCCESSFULLY REVERSE COURSE. HE THEREFORE ELECTED TO CONTINUE UP THE CANYON, WHERE HE EVENTUALLY FLEW THE AIRCRAFT THROUGH A CONTROLLED IMPACT WITH THE TERRAIN.

    Probable Cause and Findings
    The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:
    THE PILOT'S POOR INFLIGHT DECISION. FACTORS INCLUDE DOWNDRAFTS AND A BOX CANYON.
     
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  12. DenverJayhawk

    DenverJayhawk Filing Flight Plan

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    if accurate, i'm guessing he will have a hard time finding insurance on his next airplane
     
  13. Mahneuvers

    Mahneuvers Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    People weren't killed but they were seriously hurt. I'm surprised the puns haven't been more polarizing.
     
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  14. Piperonca

    Piperonca Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    POA rules have impedance for that sort of thing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2022
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  15. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

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    Are we sure someone on board didn't have a magnetic personality? Perhaps the current drew them in?
     
  16. flyingron

    flyingron Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    This one was a "club" plane (1/6 ownership). One of the shares came up for sale a few years ago I recall.
     
  17. FORANE

    FORANE En-Route

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    I've only had my 650xi for a couple weeks now but it did have a popup like you cite right around the MAP.
     
  18. Brad W

    Brad W Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    those pics give me a bit of the creeps. A good friend of mine from college lost his dad to an accident eerily like this....scud running a mooney somewhere up near Cleveland, OH back in the 1980's... a few years before I learned to fly. He was the first "ordinary" person that I knew of that was a pilot. Up till then being a pilot was a daydream that I thought was only for the ultra rich.
     
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  19. geezer

    geezer Line Up and Wait

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    One of the injured was released from the hospital, about noon the next day, Monday.
     
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  20. Tobias Göller

    Tobias Göller Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Hi,

    Fast airplanes and scud running do not mix at all. With an L4 you could get away with something like that... but today with all the antennas, powerlines, windmills... it's not a good idea. In reality probably never was.

    The faster the plane the more dangerous it is.

    I bet he literally did not see the power line coming.

    I live & fly in a mountainous region (up to ~14000ft). Weather can be very difficult in winter. People know of the dangers - and still: Every other year we have someone who thinkgs it's a good idea to go flying in conditions with low ceilings and / or fog. Some even try at night - with an obituary written by the local NTSB-like organizsation.

    Moving Maps et. al. don't replace a solid IFR training. Not at all. And with single engine piston aircrafts... in icing conditions (that do prevail here in winter)... some people really seem to have an urge to end their lifes.

    Everything happens for a reason. And that reason mostly is physics.

    Tobias
     
  21. Tobias Göller

    Tobias Göller Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Hi

    Good to hear. Let's hope both do recover. Every landing you can walk away is a good one - that part they managed quite well so far. Maybe we should give a thought to the "don't make every mistake there is - you won't live long enough to make them all" bonmot...

    Tobias
     
  22. Tobias Göller

    Tobias Göller Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Hi

    As long as the spark isn't using my aircraft to create an arc all is well....

    Tobias
     
  23. FlightmechH3

    FlightmechH3 Pre-Flight

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    "Requesting flyby of the tower"

    "NOT THAT TOWER!!!"
     
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  24. Tobias Göller

    Tobias Göller Pre-takeoff checklist

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    ... did someone already bring the "buzz the tower" joke? :)

    Just asking for a friend...

    Tobias
     
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  25. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Bro do you even lift
    good lord, problems started WAY before the approach.....

     
  26. Tobias Göller

    Tobias Göller Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Hi

    The question is: What did go wrong - and where did that come from?

    Defect instruments and then pilot overload as a consequence?

    Tobias
     
  27. Hang 4

    Hang 4 Pattern Altitude

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    that’s an understatement. Holy crap.
     
  28. Baked Potato

    Baked Potato Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Who was he talking to? Was that Potomac?
     
  29. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen En-Route PoA Supporter

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    When he bought a Mooney? :)
     
  30. GaryM

    GaryM Pattern Altitude

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    They didn’t exactly walk away…it was a pretty elaborate rescue of both people and plane. But they’ll walk again, so that’s good

    And “Any landing from which you can be retrieved by a large boom truck while your plane is hoisted down in pieces by a crane is marginal at best” just doesn’t roll off the tongue like the original version.
     
  31. flyingron

    flyingron Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Yep, Potomac WOOLY sector.
     
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  32. Albany Tom

    Albany Tom Pattern Altitude

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    So as an instrument student, I ask this of the CII's and experienced instrument pilots: Is is accurate to say that when a pilot is task saturated, and starts to drop tasks/information, that they can't generally tell the difference between over-saturated (dropping tasks) and saturated (at exactly 100%)? Asking because if so, it would seem really dangerous to be flying an approach at the task saturation limit....because you might already be screwing it up and not realizing it.

    Maybe an obvious question.
     
  33. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    Agreed.

    Distractions, task saturation, unfamiliar equipment, other things.

    Definite Swiss cheese happening.
     
  34. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yes….they did.
     
  35. whitepines

    whitepines Pre-Flight

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    Instrument pilot here. Not a bad question at all. A lot of instrument training is learning how to multitask as effectively as possible (the human brain is not wired for it, all we can do is approximate true preemptive multitasking), but even then there is a definite cliff -- 100% saturation is by definition you still have control but can't take anything else on, just over that is a cliff rather like hypoxia where you may or may not recognize you are that impaired.

    Part of remaining a safe instrument pilot (aside from proficiency) is knowing roughly when you are getting near saturation, and knowing what tasks can be dropped or how to otherwise reduce workload before hitting saturation. That means knowing when to ask ATC for straight and level when diagnosing failures, when to break off an unstable approach before it snowballs into plowing into a power line pylon, etc.

    Part of proficiency should be recurrent training in how to handle unexpected situations under the hood. This guy couldn't even hold a heading, and even if that was a systems failure he should have declared, climbed toward safety, sorted the systems problem, and came back in. Crossing Dulles approach path apparently barely under control even had approach worried, based on the recorded comms.:eek:
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2022
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  36. sarangan

    sarangan Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    The towers are marked on the approach chart, plus there is a step down fix (JOXOX) specifically to clear the tower by 700 ft.
     
  37. sarangan

    sarangan Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    There can't be a worse sin in IFR flying than busting minimums. Fast or slow doesn't matter. The only time I've been taught to bust minimums is if you are on fire or some other critical emergency while on an ILS, in which case, keep the needles centered until you collide with the runway at TDZE.

    Flying as a safety pilot (or as instructor) will give you a better sense of how close some of these obtacles are during the very last stages of a final approach. I've watched with nervousness as we pass uncomfortably close to obtacles while the pilot under the hood is oblivious of the hazard. Of course everything is within TERPS specs, but combined altimeter tolerances and being a bit below glidepath, it doesn't take much to get uncomfortably close. If it were a visual approach, we wouldn't be flying that close.
     
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  38. DenverJayhawk

    DenverJayhawk Filing Flight Plan

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    CFII here. My experience with a task saturated students is they cannot tell that they are dropping things. You can even say something to them and often early in their training, they won't even acknowledge that you are speaking to them during the high work load phases of the approach.

    IFR flying is about 2 things, IMO. 1. Staying ahead of the plane 2. Communicating. You HAVE to be ahead of the plane and know what you need to do before it happens. This is what stumps students early on until they get the Ah-Ha moment. And it's aided by checklists and procedures for all phases of a flight and it's beaten into their heads until they see it in their dreams. Once they can consistently stay ahead of the plane, then task saturation tends to reduce and suddenly their Comms improves exponentially.
     
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  39. chemgeek

    chemgeek En-Route

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    The RNAV 14 approach to GAI is not terribly complicated. The Live ATC record does not inspire confidence in IFR proficiency during this incident. The WX at the time was also not promising, even for a highly proficient pilot. There are some lessons here for those paying attention. The outcome could have been far worse.
     
  40. Jim K

    Jim K En-Route PoA Supporter

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    In my experience flying instrument approaches should be kind of boring if you're proficient. Not boring like, "this sucks", to the contrary, I maintain its one of the most fun things you can do in an airplane. I mean boring like, "okay, now I have to sit here for a minute until I turn/descend". If it feels like things are happening fast, you're behind, which is a bad place to be.