Plane down in TN

[Cooter]

http://komonews.com/news/nation-world/officials-confirm-plane-crash-in-collegedale

Another plane down, not many details yet.

 

[mulligan]

I want to speculate here first.

Not really, but I did fly into that airport a few weeks back. Not an easy little airport. There are no arrival procedures and a huge mountain with gusty winds to a little runway surrounded by trees.

After doing a landing to a complete stop, back taxi, and takeoff, I was thrilled to have landed there for what I hope was the last time, especially with Chattanooga a few miles away.

Sorry for the loss of the two.

 

[Mike Smith]

I'll speculate second, approach or departure?

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

I'm not a big fan of shorter runways built in glacial drags. I've flown out of the now closed one like this just a few miles away in Cleveland, TN. They are challenging. The only reason a transient flies into one of these is to pick someone up. There are better places to stop for fuel. Hopefully this isn't one of those cases where he was there to pick one person up, they brought a friend, and he pushed the performance edge.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

I'll speculate second, approach or departure?

Article says it happened on take off.

 

[Velocity173]

I want to speculate here first.

Not really, but I did fly into that airport a few weeks back. Not an easy little airport. There are no arrival procedures and a huge mountain with gusty winds to a little runway surrounded by trees.

After doing a landing to a complete stop, back taxi, and takeoff, I was thrilled to have landed there for what I hope was the last time, especially with Chattanooga a few miles away.

Sorry for the loss of the two.

I fly over it on a daily basis but never have gone into land. Does seem to be a tricky little airport if the winds come over the hills near by. Always wondered why they put hangers and a ramp on the approach end of 3.

RIP.

 

[GRG55]

Been a rough couple of days for GA:

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/06/accident-occurred-june-11-2016-near_11.html

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/06/accident-occurred-june-11-2016-near.html

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/06/accident-occurred-june-10-2016-at.html

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/06/grumman-american-aa-1b-fatal-accident.html

 

[sarangan]

At first look I would not have guessed this is challenging airport. I have not flown here so forgive me for asking. Elevation seems fairly flat, and the 4000ft mountains are about 20 miles to the east. So what makes this a difficult airport?

 

[mulligan]

At first look I would not have guessed this is challenging airport. I have not flown here so forgive me for asking. Elevation seems fairly flat, and the 4000ft mountains are about 20 miles to the east. So what makes this a difficult airport?

Maybe not mountains but very large hills surrounding the airport. Very windy and trees surrounding the entire area.

 

[RyanB]

I live in Chattanooga and fly into FGU pretty regularly. It can have its challenges as with alot of airports, but I wouldn't say its a difficult airport to land at. With the sloping runway that slopes in almost either direction and with the trees on either side, it can create a wind tunnel type effect. Will be interested to hear about findings in this accident. It appears it could have been a turn back after departure. Also from some of the photos, i notice one of the three prop blades seems to be unscathed, not sure if that indicates no engine power at impact, or just a flat stall. Not sure if weight was a problem, density alt yesterday was around 3000'. I went over to the airport yesterday shortly after i heard about it. I heard bits and pieces of things from the man that sits on the unicom at the fbo desk. Things such as "no radio communications" and "he was really moving fast" "did you see him do a 180?". Some sort of a turn back was done because the wreckage ended up facing the 21 departure end which would've been the active runway. Also heard a flight instructor was on downwind with a student and witnessed it from the air, would like to hear what he says. very sad for sure.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

At first look I would not have guessed this is challenging airport. I have not flown here so forgive me for asking. Elevation seems fairly flat, and the 4000ft mountains are about 20 miles to the east. So what makes this a difficult airport?

It is not Kansas. If I can get to 50 feet here I can fly around until I run out of fuel. Hills and the above mentioned wind tunnel effect add to the difficulty. If you back the map out to the 100 mile range you will see that the whole path from Chattanooga to Knoxville is a valley created by one big glacial drag. That adds to the wind tunnel effect when you have a NE or SW wind. When you do have winds that cross the ridges (NW or SE wind) you get LOTS of turbulence.

I just did a street view of the area. This is not that bad of an airport. Nothing like the old one up the road in Cleveland. (Sloped runway, hills on 3 sides, shorter than ideal, etc...) This looks OK.

 

[Velocity173]

That's an old picture above as well. Hanger and planes just before the approach of 3 now.

 

[Bill]

This is not a difficult airport. If there is crosswind, you can get a little turb as you drop below the tree line of the ridges, but it quiets down again down near the runway. Latest reports are the plane was departing and maybe tried to circle back to land.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/06/fatal-accident-occurred-june-11-2016-at.html

 

[Gsxrpilot]

I've been in and out of this airport a few times as my son is in college there. I also fly a Mooney. If this was an issue with the departure such as engine failure, there aren't many options with hills, trees and houses all around. If 21 was the active, it slopes down hill from the numbers to the middle of the runway. I treated it as a Short Field takeoff and with the slope, was in the air with plenty of room to put it back down on the runway if I had a problem. Of course the same slope makes speed on landing very critical in a Mooney.

 

[Bill]

I've been in and out of this airport a few times as my son is in college there. I also fly a Mooney. If this was an issue with the departure such as engine failure, there aren't many options with hills, trees and houses all around.

Yes, no real options with an engine out either way, you're going to eat bark.

If 21 was the active, it slopes down hill from the numbers to the middle of the runway.

There is significant elevation change between the ends and the middle, it is V- shaped, opposite of hump back.

 

[Challenged]

Man, that's like landing in a bowl.

 

[Bill]

Preliminary is in:

http://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20160611X45600&key=1

 

[Velocity173]

That's the description I heard as well.

 

[Lindberg]

A flight instructor reported that he was conducting a flight with a student pilot and was on approach runway 21 at FGU, when he witnessed the accident airplane on short final approach to runway 3. The flight instructor contacted the airport via Unicom and confirmed that the landing runway was runway 21. In addition, he did not hear any communications from the accident airplane. Shortly thereafter, he observed the accident airplane in a climbing left turn, near the departure end of runway 3, approximately 80 to 100 feet above the ground.

There seems to be some information missing. AFAIK, there's no "landing runway" at an untowered field. I'm also wondering who was exactly where, when.

 

[rbridges]

There seems to be some information missing. AFAIK, there's no "landing runway" at an untowered field. I'm also wondering who was exactly where, when.

I may have missed it, but maybe the winds favored the other direction. I was wondering if the plane pulled up too fast since traffic was landing the other direction.

 

[RyanB]

The flight instructor who witnessed it from the air held a safety meeting last Sat. Morning at Wilson air. Hearing it first hand, it sounded to me like he was in a hurry to get on the ground and without noting the winds, he attepted to land with a tailwind, but too fast to land so he did a go around near the opposite end of the rwy. Slow climb speed from the tail wind+weight and DA at the time and making steep turns at low altitude to try and land the other direction caused a partial stall/spin scenario. It's likely fuel was on his mind as well. Will be interesting to see what the probable cause is. Sad

 

[Cooter]

The flight instructor who witnessed it from the air held a safety meeting last Sat. Morning at Wilson air. Hearing it first hand, it sounded to me like he was in a hurry to get on the ground and without noting the winds, he attepted to land with a tailwind, but too fast to land so he did a go around near the opposite end of the rwy. Slow climb speed from the tail wind+weight and DA at the time and making steep turns at low altitude to try and land the other direction caused a partial stall/spin scenario. It's likely fuel was on his mind as well. Will be interesting to see what the probable cause is. Sad

Off topic, but is there another Wilson Air besides Memphis?

 

[Velocity173]

Off topic, but is there another Wilson Air besides Memphis?

There's a Wilson Air at Chattanooga.

 

[Lindberg]

I may have missed it, but maybe the winds favored the other direction. I was wondering if the plane pulled up too fast since traffic was landing the other direction.

The NTSB preliminary says winds were reported as calm. I wonder who was lower.

 

[midcap]

Unerving story. So the pilot basically tried to climb to quickly while turning to tight?

 

[Dave Theisen]

There's a Wilson Air at Chattanooga.

And CLT.

 

[flyingriki]

This fellow was a friend to many of us in the experimental world. He later died and so far only his daughter may survive. A very sad day for us.

 

[RyanB]

A bit late in posting this, but as a follow up, the probable cause has been released. Sounds like the same ol’ song and dance.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

• The pilot's failure to maintain adequate airspeed and his exceedance of the airplane's critical angle of attack while maneuvering after a go-around, which resulted in an aerodynamic stall.

https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20160611X45600&key=1

 

[FastEddieB]

Been into Collegedale a few times and found nothing remarkable or difficult about it, compared to many small airports in E TN.

 

[3393RP]

Slow climb speed from the tail wind+weight and DA at the time and making steep turns at low altitude to try and land the other direction caused a partial stall/spin scenario.

Flying with a tailwind does not lower airspeed.

 

[FastEddieB]

Flying with a tailwind does not lower airspeed.

Nice catch.

The only way it could matter, other than shear, would be if the pilot was mistakenly pulling the nose up due to the increased groundspeed creating the illusion of climbing at too great an airspeed.

Maybe that’s what Ryanb meant?.

 

[Bill]

Been into Collegedale a few times and found nothing remarkable or difficult about it, compared to many small airports in E TN.

It is mostly benign, but:

1. It is in a valley between two small ridges. When the wind is right you can get some decent mechanical turb as you drop below the tree lines of the ridges.
2. On approach to 3, you pass over a large group of hangars and aircraft parking, and this area is decently lower than the threshold of 3. Again, when the wind is right, you can encounter significant sink as you approach the threshold of 3. The higher the wind speed, the more the sink. If there is any appreciable wind at all, I aim my touchdown point to be about 1/3 down the runway (no biggie, runway is nearly 5000') to avoid and/or have cushion for the sink.
3. Visually, it's somewhat interesting in that the runway is a big V with significant drop in the middle.

 

[RyanB]

Nice catch.

The only way it could matter, other than shear, would be if the pilot was mistakenly pulling the nose up due to the increased groundspeed creating the illusion of climbing at too great an airspeed.

Maybe that’s what Ryanb meant?.

That’s more or less the way the witnessing CFI explained it at the safety meeting I attended shortly after the accident.

 

[3393RP]

Nice catch.

The only way it could matter, other than shear, would be if the pilot was mistakenly pulling the nose up due to the increased groundspeed creating the illusion of climbing at too great an airspeed.

Eddie, I've never experienced this, but another effect strong winds can have is when making a steep turn in gusty conditions. A large gust of wind perpendicular to the airplane then has a vertical component in relation to the wing, and can change the wing angle of attack and lower the stall speed.

It's an unlikely scenario but something to think about, especially when manuevering at low altitude.

Bill, it looks like the slope of the runway could give the illusion one is losing altitude after initiating a go around, and that might result in a pull-up that reduces airspeed. Maybe the foreshortening of the telephoto lens is exaggerating the slope, but it looks pretty steep.