Piper down off the coast in Destin

Hope for the best,water landings at night,usually don't turn out well.
 
Two deceased - a man and a woman. They were overdue to land in Destin and it sounds like they were coming from somewhere in Texas. They were so close...
So sad.
 
I wonder if the 'black hole' effect got them, maneuvering off shore to land? It could be more of an 'instrument turn' depending on conditions.
 
Lived in the area when I was stationed at Eglin AFB and did some flight instructing there. Just north of the beach is hwy 98 and then the approach end of runway 32, so the plane was close, I'd guess 1/2 - 1 mile. Weather shouldn't have been a factor as it was clear and light winds all day. Pretty developed along the coast so plenty of city lights. GPS approaches to 32 and 14. Should be able to recover the plane and hopefully find the cause. Sad. RIP.

edit: AirNav shows PAPI on both ends. Coming from Texas I would think the plane would extend over the water heading south on downwind, or just enter on a left base, so always a possibility of disorientation and turning base leg and/or final one could lose control, especially if they went out too far over the water.
 
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sourdough44 said:
I wonder if the 'black hole' effect got them, maneuvering off shore to land? It could be more of an 'instrument turn' depending on conditions.
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Thats a good guess. The 911 call was at 6:52 and sunset is 5:30 so it would have been night conditions.

The black hole effect is very real! I don't fly to unfamiliar airports at night unless they have a visual and/or instrument glide slope available... and I always use them
 
dell30rb said:
The black hole effect is very real! I don't fly to unfamiliar airports at night unless they have a visual and/or instrument glide slope available... and I always use them
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No kidding. I treat night flying (especially over water) like IMC.

I did a VFR departure over the water once in Hawaii at night - crystal clear - no moon. Very disconcerting and easy to screw up if you aren't ready for it.
 
sourdough44 said:
I wonder if the 'black hole' effect got them, maneuvering off shore to land? It could be more of an 'instrument turn' depending on conditions.
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That's sort of what I was thinking, it is VERY dark looking south into a the gulf on a night with very little moonlight. :( I've flown into Destin 100's of times, but I don't think more than 20 have been at night. It's not a particularly difficult approach VFR even at night, the coast line is pretty well lit, but maneuvering away from the coast could cause some issues, especially if you are IR.
RIP
 
I came into M41 one night to get cheap self serve on a long trip and I remember it really messed with me. Black hole approach and its 3000x60 which is a lot different than what I'm used to at night. I put my faith in the 2 light PAPI and it turned out fine.

RDU has a pretty bad one too, if you come into the small GA runway on the edge of the field, the approach is directly over Umstead state park. I think its worse because RDU is lit up like xmas, but the approach has nothing. The small runway has REIL but nothing else.

https://goo.gl/maps/26RpVspYSXP2
 
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Fearless Tower said:
No kidding. I treat night flying (especially over water) like IMC.

I did a VFR departure over the water once in Hawaii at night - crystal clear - no moon. Very disconcerting and easy to screw up if you aren't ready for it.
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A very valid warning.

A read through the August 2000 Gulf Air Airbus A320 accident supports this. They came in high and hot on a clear night, tried to do a visual go around, became disoriented (black sky, black water) and flew a perfectly good commercial airliner into the sea.
 
I've flown down to KMKY a few times at night, same situation. Small airport in the middle of a whole lot of NOTHING.

Too bad about these folks. Do we know point of origin for the flight? Looking at the track, it appears it may have flown out of KGLS (Galveston)? That's about a 450 nm flight direct, and if they took a few detours it could have put the fuel level pretty low. Looking at the track, they definitely did NOT go direct, and with all the twists and turns they made, the fuel was probably pretty close to empty.

It's likely they had a tailwind though, most of the night winds are out of the west or NW. Doing a direct flight from KGLS to KDES in my plane would burn about 40 gallons (including taxi fuel) which would put me with BARELY an hour reserve. Probably would have refueled at some point along that way, but if they pushed it, ran out of gas AND had a black hole situation, that's just a recipe for disaster.
 
Caramon13 said:
Looking at the track, it appears it may have flown out of KGLS (Galveston)? That's about a 450 nm flight direct, and if they took a few detours it could have put the fuel level pretty low. Looking at the track, they definitely did NOT go direct, and with all the twists and turns they made, the fuel was probably pretty close to empty.

but if they pushed it, ran out of gas AND had a black hole situation, that's just a recipe for disaster.
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That thought did run through my mind too. It's happen before, "aww we're almost there, we should make it". Sad if that's what caused it. They would have been talking to Eglin approach but had probably switched over to Unicom.

Link at OP says the aircraft number was recovered and was a PA28-181.
 
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Yeah I have a PA-28-180, I think the fuel capacity is similar though, about 50 gallons total, 48 usable. Burning nearly 40 on that flight that would have put them at 8 gallons left in the plane. That's if they leaned properly, and actually GOT a true 10 GPH burn.

Speed wise they probably made great time with the tailwind, but again, if they failed to lean properly and taking the track they took, I'm betting fuel PROBABLY was on their minds...
 
According to the Destin Log this morning, the FAA has confirmed it was a PA28 Archer and crashed 300 yards off the coast. I imagine they know the radar track to determine where it went down.
 
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I think a lot of people are assuming an IFR rating. If the pilot was VFR only, it's a good chance he had never flow in complete darkness. I know that around here, even on a moonless night, it is still easy to fly night VFR.

I've never heard the term "black hole", although I understand what it's talking about. Honestly, I can't say that I would have considered the darkness if flying out over the ocean for base, it's not something that gets talked about frequently.
 
bflynn said:
I think a lot of people are assuming an IFR rating. If the pilot was VFR only, it's a good chance he had never flow in complete darkness. I know that around here, even on a moonless night, it is still easy to fly night VFR.

I've never heard the term "black hole", although I understand what it's talking about. Honestly, I can't say that I would have considered the darkness if flying out over the ocean for base, it's not something that gets talked about frequently.
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Shades of John F. Kennedy Jr.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_Jr._plane_crash
 
I recall a PA28 an FBO had where I instructed, Warrior I think. Guy rents it and flys it to the Midwest somewhere, at night. Ran out of fuel and crashed, killing him (don't recall if others were onboard), at night. Crazy. Nice plane too. Only Piper we had for rent.
 
It's not just a dark night that will cause issues over water, even in the daylight on a hazy day it's hard to tell up from down over water. I was flying with my sister into Grosse Ile MI about a month after JFK Jr went down, we turned over the lake and it was VERY HAZY, I asked her to look and tell me what she saw, "nothing". That's what happened to JFK Jr, except it was at night. With a good moon and clear skies, flying over water is really pretty at night, but not so much if the conditions aren't good and you aren't instrument rated.

bflynn said:
I think a lot of people are assuming an IFR rating. If the pilot was VFR only, it's a good chance he had never flow in complete darkness. I know that around here, even on a moonless night, it is still easy to fly night VFR.

I've never heard the term "black hole", although I understand what it's talking about. Honestly, I can't say that I would have considered the darkness if flying out over the ocean for base, it's not something that gets talked about frequently.
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Very sad, I don't believe the approach to either end of the runway is very difficult at Destin. East side of the field is kind of dark due to a golf course, North side is very close to the bay, west side is well lit, south side where they were approaching from is very well lit and you really should carry a bit of extra altitude because of the condos on the beach.

Regardless, RIP
 
The FAA database that I saw showed this accident pilot getting a private pilot's license in 2014. If so I'd say he's a somewhat newer pilot. That could be a factor.

Things come up that one may not be specifically trained about, over time experience can smooth out surprises. I hear mention of 'better training'? How often have we heard the phrase 'license to learn'?

As we've also known, some lessons have a learning curve that's straight up, only one chance.

Yes, it did say somewhere 'he was a veteran pilot', so it may of just been a reissue of some fashion in 2014.
 
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Seanaldinho said:
East side of the field is kind of dark due to a golf course, west side is well lit, south side where they were approaching from is very well lit and you really should carry a bit of extra altitude because of the condos on the beach.
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That whole area is lit up, it's a resort town, and the golf course is to the right of final to runway 32, so really not a factor. Don't need extra altitude, just stay on the PAPI.

The pilot, 67, lives in Texas. His girl friend, 60, has a business in the area so the news stated he made this trip frequently, so he was familiar with Destin.
 
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sourdough44 said:
I wonder if the 'black hole' effect got them, maneuvering off shore to land? It could be more of an 'instrument turn' depending on conditions.
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I did my night flight for my private many years ago in Venice FL. The instructor pointed me out over the ocean just to show me this. A pit of blackness.
 
sourdough44 said:
The FAA database that I saw showed this accident pilot getting a private pilot's license in 2014. If so I'd say he's a somewhat newer pilot. That could be a factor.

Things come up that one may not be specifically trained about, over time experience can smooth out surprises. I hear mention of 'better training'? How often have we heard the phrase 'license to learn'?

As we've also known, some lessons have a learning curve that's straight up, only one chance.
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The date you saw is the date the cert was issued.
Any number of things could cause a new cert to be issued - replacement cert, change of name or address, statement of English proficiency, etc.
Date of issuance does not necessarily correspond to date the certification was granted.
 
RIP

Gotta wonder if synthetic vision would have helped even VFR only.

I know I sure like it what little I've flown with it, and I wish for it in my plane someday.
 
Even without an instrument rating, private pilots are supposed to know how to fly by reference to instruments without a visible horizon. They should also be aware of solid-VMC situations where the need will arise (not just over water--unlit land can pose the same problem), and be sure to be proficient before encountering such conditions.

It's especially sad when preventable fatalities result from inadequate training or practice.
 
acrophile said:
Even without an instrument rating, private pilots are supposed to know how to fly by reference to instruments without a visible horizon. They should also be aware of solid-VMC situations where the need will arise (not just over water--unlit land can pose the same problem), and be sure to be proficient before encountering such conditions.
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Yeah, true, but stuff happens. Especially when a pilot is relatively inexperienced.

I lived in Harrison, AR when I got my PPL and shortly after getting it I flew my bride to dinner at Hot Springs. It was about an hour flight in my 172. It was daylight going down, dark in the return trip.

There's two very large expanses of nothingness along that route. In fact the entire trip is nothingness except for the Arkansas River Valley. The Ouachita Mountains south of Russellville and the Boston Mountains & Buffalo River National Scenic Riverway North.

We took off from HOT after dinner, it was a moonless night, I told my wife, "you look traffic, I'm watching the instruments." And I did the entire trip. I was lucky, I definitely wasn't prepared for or expecting that.

But, I did have good training from a conservative minded retired full bird colonel.

Lucky.
 
timwinters said:
We took off from HOT after dinner, it was a moonless night, I told my wife, "you look traffic, I'm watching the instruments." And I did the entire trip. I was lucky, I definitely wasn't prepared for or expecting that.

But, I did have good training from a conservative minded retired full bird colonel.
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Sorry but I have to question whether you did receive adequate training if your instructor left you unprepared for, and not expecting, the need to fly by instruments under those conditions (and needing to delegate traffic-avoidance to a non-pilot passenger). Under those circumstances, I think you should have diverted rather than continuing the flight (unless your destination airport made for the only well-lit night landing along your route).
 
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