Piper Apache $32k obo

A

Apache123

Line Up and Wait
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Aug 3, 2011
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Lake Forest, IL
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Hey, Steve!
Just putting this out there in case any are interested; I'm still flying her regularly but will hopefully move up to something faster after she's sold. So I'm in no rush. =)

Based out of Waukegan, IL (KUGN).

Details:
Left engine overhauled and installed December 1997 by G&N Aircraft at Griffith Airport, 850hrs

Right engine overhauled August 1989 by Land Air Associates, 1900hrs

ACTT 4950

Prop AD 97-18-02 complied with 2011 so 3 and a half more years until next inspection (new blades on last inspection because she still had blades from the early 80s and were shaved to limits previously -- props done by the prop shop in Wheeling, IL 2005 and Maxwell Air Service prop shop in Minnesota 2011).

Within the last 12 calendar months:
New generators and votlage regulators left and right
15-year / 1500hr Heater Overhaul AD
pitot-static/transponder test
new digital tachs L & R (Electronics International model)

It has a built-in oxygen console I have two "large" tanks and one hand-held/emergency

The next annual is due August 2013, Pitot/Static&Transponder test due April 2013.

For anyone seriously wanting multi-time consider this bird. The typical trainer/renter from flight schools these days is the seminole which will be around $300~$350/hr wet. This Apache has consistently burned 11gph +/- 1 in cruise via lean until rough and then enrich until smooth (yay carburetors). During training flights with time spent full-rich during maneuvers I'd get 15gph.

So with the annual done, assuming even 15gph at $6/gal, flying 100 hours (ATP minimum multi time), then selling this bird for something even as low as 23k (crazy low, but to illustrate the fast-sale-ability as a trainer price), compared to renting a seminole which would net you about 25 hours for that same cost. Lean her out to 11gph and get even crazier. To someone wanting to go airliner this could be your best time building option. Go halfsies with someone and it's even more efficient as a time-building twin.
 

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What engines are in it? The original 150 hp?

I did my MEI in the Geronimo conversion. Lovely old flying machine. This would be some cheap multi time. Pull her back to 55% and fly for little more than a 172 in go-fast mode!
 
LDJones said:
What engines are in it? The original 150 hp?

I did my MEI in the Geronimo conversion. Lovely old flying machine. This would be some cheap multi time. Pull her back to 55% and fly for little more than a 172 in go-fast mode!
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Yep, Lycoming O-320-A1A
 
Since I've been flying 180s in the Geronimo, I'm curious about your useful load, cruise speeds and single-engine performance with the 150s.
 
Useful is 1220. Cruise I get 115kts at 11gph at gross using 20"/2000rpm and 130kts when it's me plus one and 23"/2300.
Single engine climb is as you'd expect: 100fpm up to 5500'. That is one of the biggest differences between the Apache and the Geronimo conversion: single engine performance.
 
I've always had a soft spot for those things due to the rounded lines. Can't complain about the price, nothing like buying a twin for Cherokee money.
 
steingar said:
I've always had a soft spot for those things due to the rounded lines. Can't complain about the price, nothing like buying a twin for Cherokee money.
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Too bad you can't operate it for Cherokee money.

Otherwise, on the face of it, this looks like a pretty good deal if one needs to build twin time.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Too bad you can't operate it for Cherokee money.

Otherwise, on the face of it, this looks like a pretty good deal if one needs to build twin time.
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Agreed, if I did have the AMUs to operate it I'd be tempted. But I don't, I barely have what it take to maintain my own little puddle jumper.
 
I'm curious about the operating costs. How much does it run you to own it? How much is an annual, etc.
 
jmp470 said:
I'm curious about the operating costs. How much does it run you to own it? How much is an annual, etc.
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The "First Annual" after purchase (she'd been out of annual for a year) led to a few discrepencies: I had a new ELT installed, Generators and Voltage Regulators, it had to get new prop blades to comply with an AD. Heater overhaul, new digital tachometers. This wasn't a typical annual (though it was probably an "I didn't get a prebuy and this was the first annual since purchased" =P).

The following annual:
Inspection cost was about $2200, no airworthiness discrepancies last annual but I elected to have one of the cylinders overhauled, it's a Lyc O-320 so that was about $1200 including labor.


Operating costs have been pretty consistent. I can (and do) lean her out "until rough" and then enrich slightly. I must have some unusual engines for carbs because the engines never actually get shaky like my experience with C-172s -- instead, I can lean until there's noticeable powerloss and down to shutdown before it starts shaking like a wet dog. When I lean like this she burns 11 to 12gph (combined). This nets me about 115kts or so. If I want speed I'll lean to "rough" then enrich to a best-guess based on the POH and Lyc. manual for what my speed should be at a particular setting, this will usually get me about 125kts to 130kts indicated at 15 to 16gph. "Climb power" I calculate to be 19gph.

After the cylinder overhaul on the right and fixing an oil leak on the left both engines go through a quart in about 8 to 10hrs.

With a $20 hourly reserve, roughly $75/hr for fuel at $5.50/gal, and two quarts every 10hrs, it ends up being roughly $100/hr to fly this twin.

My wife and I sat down for a while trying to decide whether we just wanted to keep this bird and upgrade her over time to a geronimo w/ better avionics, but decided we'd rather just spend the extra cash getting a twin comanche if someone buys her. It's a great plane, which is why I'm continuing to fly her regularly and am in no real hurry to sell.

Let me know if there's any other questions.
 
Apache123 said:
The "First Annual" after purchase (she'd been out of annual for a year) led to a few discrepencies: I had a new ELT installed, Generators and Voltage Regulators, it had to get new prop blades to comply with an AD. Heater overhaul, new digital tachometers. This wasn't a typical annual (though it was probably an "I didn't get a prebuy and this was the first annual since purchased" =P).

The following annual:
Inspection cost was about $2200, no airworthiness discrepancies last annual but I elected to have one of the cylinders overhauled, it's a Lyc O-320 so that was about $1200 including labor.


Operating costs have been pretty consistent. I can (and do) lean her out "until rough" and then enrich slightly. I must have some unusual engines for carbs because the engines never actually get shaky like my experience with C-172s -- instead, I can lean until there's noticeable powerloss and down to shutdown before it starts shaking like a wet dog. When I lean like this she burns 11 to 12gph (combined). This nets me about 115kts or so. If I want speed I'll lean to "rough" then enrich to a best-guess based on the POH and Lyc. manual for what my speed should be at a particular setting, this will usually get me about 125kts to 130kts indicated at 15 to 16gph. "Climb power" I calculate to be 19gph.

After the cylinder overhaul on the right and fixing an oil leak on the left both engines go through a quart in about 8 to 10hrs.

With a $20 hourly reserve, roughly $75/hr for fuel at $5.50/gal, and two quarts every 10hrs, it ends up being roughly $100/hr to fly this twin.

My wife and I sat down for a while trying to decide whether we just wanted to keep this bird and upgrade her over time to a geronimo w/ better avionics, but decided we'd rather just spend the extra cash getting a twin comanche if someone buys her. It's a great plane, which is why I'm continuing to fly her regularly and am in no real hurry to sell.

Let me know if there's any other questions.
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You didn't mention that it has one of the biggest cabins you'll ever find! No rubbing elbows with the person next to you. Taxiing an Apache is like cruising around in a pretty big truck. It's a very cool airplane.
 
LDJones said:
You didn't mention that it has one of the biggest cabins you'll ever find! No rubbing elbows with the person next to you. Taxiing an Apache is like cruising around in a pretty big truck. It's a very cool airplane.
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Hehe I'm just giving the facts; I hate dealing with 'salesmen' but they're everywhere. I'm with the oatmeal on this one: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/sell_generation

But since you bring it up, yeah it's freaking huge inside. I've had a 275# guy in the right seat and our sides/shoulders didn't touch at all. My wife sleep comfortably in the back seat stretched out.

This is also one of the reasons we've considered going geronimo versus twinki. Maybe that's what we'll do if we don't get an offer we'll accept. =D
 
Sure looks like fun. Wish the SE absolute ceiling was above ground level out here on the light twins... :(
 
denverpilot said:
Sure looks like fun. Wish the SE absolute ceiling was above ground level out here on the light twins... :(
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The drift down with one engine will still give you more time/options than a single with no power.
 
denverpilot said:
Sure looks like fun. Wish the SE absolute ceiling was above ground level out here on the light twins... :(
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Depends on which light twin and how you load it. A Colemill 310 or a RAM T310R will do above ground level, especially if light. Now that doesn't mean they're great for that area, especially as you head west...
 
Henning said:
My 310 is still climbing on one at >500fpm at 5500, my turboed Travelair would hold 13,000+.
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At what weight and OAT will your 310 do that? And is your other engine actually feathered or simulated feather doing that?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
At what weight and OAT will your 310 do that? And is your other engine actually feathered or simulated feather doing that?
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Feathered, I climbed out N bound offshore here temps in the 70s, full fuel but light cabin with just me, clothes and snacks, probably 700 or so under gross.
 
denverpilot said:
Sure looks like fun. Wish the SE absolute ceiling was above ground level out here on the light twins... :(
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Plenty of light twins with turbos. SE service ceiling on a Twinkie, even normally aspirated is above ground out there (7,000). SE service ceiling on the turbo Twinkie is 19,000 or 17,000 depending on which model it is.

IIRC the most dismal one is the Seminole at 3800 feet. However, the definition of single-engine service ceiling is where the plane climbs only 50 fpm on one. In the event of a failure, the altitude where the plane can maintain altitude will be somewhat higher, if you do things right... And as has been mentioned, you'll still have more time with one out in a twin than a single. ;)

Out there, it's akin to having a single where only half the engine can fail at a time. ;)
 
Kent, keep in mind that, in summer, DA gets very high out there, which is what really matters for SE service ceiling. I remember taking off from KAPA (I think?) in the Aztec, and the density altitude (as told by the nifty DA display) was something like 8500 or 9000. So you're definitely at the point of "I need a turbo" to have a shot at being above ground level - a Twinkie, or even the Colemill 310, won't cut it with any margin to speak of.

Of course, then you have turbos without intercoolers and weight considerations. By the end of it, you're looking at a very serious twin to get the kind of safety margin I get from my "cheap" twins out here.
 
Still available. I'm not really in a hurry to sell her, so she's only listed here on PoA. I still fly her regularly, but I'm going to move up to a bigger twin when I can.

Just added the Reiff Pre-heat last month.
 
Apache123 said:
Still available. I'm not really in a hurry to sell her, so she's only listed here on PoA. I still fly her regularly, but I'm going to move up to a bigger twin when I can.

Just added the Reiff Pre-heat last month.
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Let me know when you fly it up to Minneapolis for a Mall of America visit!
 
Damn this thing is still for sale? If I wanted multi time I would be all over this! Even if I didn't comparing it to my 182, similar UL, and speed for speed a couple gal/hr thirstier, yet you could buy a lot of avgas for the price delta to a 182 of my vintage.
 
Plus they're way more fun to fly than a 182! No disrespect to the Skylane (owned one myself) but the Apache is just way cool!
 
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Skylane81E said:
Damn this thing is still for sale? If I wanted multi time I would be all over this! Even if I didn't comparing it to my 182, similar UL, and speed for speed a couple gal/hr thirstier, yet you could buy a lot of avgas for the price delta to a 182 of my vintage.
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Very true! The only thing that scares me away from Apaches is maintenance. Steve, how's your bird been so far? Do you have a $/hr number for what you spend in maintenance? What's the biggest thing been? Do you have no-AD props/heater?
 
Still for sale, not in a rush and so when I get responses from barnstormers who say they will give 15k I just laugh and hang up the phone.

I don't know if I have a regular maintenance cost yet as in the first two years I had a lot of work done/things replaced that was pretty expensive. Heater overhaul was about 4k last year and I had to get new blades for the props recently and the pair ended up being 10k. That is probably the next big expense -- 3 years and either a prop inspection AD or no-AD prop conversion.

Not sure what we will do assuming we still have her. If no one buys her at the price I want I'll probably just slowly convert her into a Geronimo.

This thing won't climb on one engine with four adults (including my instructor) on a hot day. I did practice once and we were able to hold altitude at 4000' msl pretty close to gross in ... I think it was early October? But we were definitely balls to the wall on the right engine.

My mall of America trip will hopefully be this spring. =) I'll be sure to post before I fly up. =D

Cheers,
Steven
 
Hey there...been reading this thread as a lurker but wanted to register to have some input. I'm interested but at this point I'm still in the information gathering phase. Can I direct questions to the thread or do you prefer PM?

Thanks
 
DragginTail said:
Hey there...been reading this thread as a lurker but wanted to register to have some input. I'm interested but at this point I'm still in the information gathering phase. Can I direct questions to the thread or do you prefer PM?

Thanks
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Direct to the thread is fine; others may have the same questions. =)
 
I am not saying I am 100% interested, but I would like to talk to you more. Maybe I can cruise over for a lunch one day, since I am based out of Dupage. I would like to see the plane and talk more about it. PM me and I can send you my personal email. But so far I like what I see. :)
 
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