Pilot training and GPS?

John Baker

John Baker

Final Approach
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John Baker
Things are continually changing in aviation and aviation training. Students no longer have to learn celestial navigation or Morse Code, Loran is hardly mentioned, ADF is brushed over, but still on the knowledge test. Navigation using VORs is still a big part of learning, since it is still in use, yet all of these, are almost ignored in favor of GPS in the real world.

How soon do you think the private pilot training will be GPS emphasized over VOR and ADF. Right now, the knowledge test barely touches GPS, in favor of the tried and true VORs and ADF, even though they are obviously going the way of the dinosaurs.

I realize it takes government bureaucracies a little longer to catch up with the times. There was a thing on the news the other day about Obama being alerted to America having an unemployment problem, and how he intends to have a committee study the matter. What about the FAA, when do you think it will start emphasizing GPS in pilot training?

John
 
John,

Sounds like you're frustrated.

For me it depends on what's in the airplane we're training in. If we have GPS, we use it from day 1, we are in complicated airspace and it helps define the practice area.

I have more problems explaining why we use pilotage, dead reckoning, and VOR than getting students to learn everything they can about GPS.

Now when the FAA written test will drop questions about how to calculate distances with an ADF and get some good GPS questions, that's anybody's guess.

Joe
 
The FAA, as you are aware, focuses on really stupid stuff, like how many satellites are in the constellation. Who cares?? Not me.

One challenge is that, unlike VORs and NDBs, for which all equipment works virtually identically, there is great variation in GPS world.

Still, I don't think it would be a bad idea for part of the practical test to include programming a flight plan into a GPS and flying it. Show knowledge of how to go Direct to a waypoint/airport on the system in the aircraft. If the aircraft doesn't have a GPS, then you don't have to, much like the ADF reqmt in the instrument test (if it ain't working, you don't have to fly an NDB appr).

It seems silly to have such a powerful tool available to pilots, which is now remarkably prevalent even in training fleets, and not require even a modicum of skill in its actual use.

Who cares how many satellites are in a GPS constellation???!!!:mad2:
 
I think many folks think "GPS is so easy how do you test anyone?"

Couple this with one manufacturer's design and intepretation of GPS data dominating the market -- will it be a test of GPS knowledge or Garmin menus and pages?
 
John Baker said:
Things are continually changing in aviation and aviation training. Students no longer have to learn celestial navigation or Morse Code, Loran is hardly mentioned, ADF is brushed over, but still on the knowledge test. Navigation using VORs is still a big part of learning, since it is still in use, yet all of these, are almost ignored in favor of GPS in the real world.

How soon do you think the private pilot training will be GPS emphasized over VOR and ADF. Right now, the knowledge test barely touches GPS, in favor of the tried and true VORs and ADF, even though they are obviously going the way of the dinosaurs.

I realize it takes government bureaucracies a little longer to catch up with the times. There was a thing on the news the other day about Obama being alerted to America having an unemployment problem, and how he intends to have a committee study the matter. What about the FAA, when do you think it will start emphasizing GPS in pilot training?

John
Click to expand...

When I got my Private, I didn't proceed immediately with the Instrument because we -- my instructor and I -- thought that it didn't make sense to "train on all that ADF and VOR stuff, with GPS obviously taking over."

That was 15 years ago! Incredibly, people are still flying VOR and NDB approaches every day.

One thing you don't have to worry about with our government is that "innovation" will leave you behind.
 
dmccormack said:
I think many folks think "GPS is so easy how do you test anyone?"

Couple this with one manufacturer's design and intepretation of GPS data dominating the market -- will it be a test of GPS knowledge or Garmin menus and pages?
Click to expand...

Like I said - know how to work whatever is in the plane in which you are taking your test. No need to activate procedures, or review airspace. Assume a GPS can be a fancy moving map 430 or an old Northstar without bells and whistles. Using the unit in the plane, load a flightplan (if it is capable). Fly direct somewhere. While flying direct, change the waypoint and fly there, then show you can fly the heading to get there (ie follow the GPS directions)

I doesn't have to be about Garmin, or King, or even Northstar. Just know the equipment that's in the plane you are using at a basic navigational level.

"Candidate shall demonstrate the ability to load and activate a flight plan, if unit in aircraft is so capable.
Candidate shall demonstrate ability to navigate to a waypoint using GPS guidance, and to procede to a given waypoint."

I dunno, something like that....
 
flyersfan31 said:
The FAA, as you are aware, focuses on really stupid stuff, like how many satellites are in the constellation. Who cares?? Not me.
Click to expand...

No doubt the knowledge test question bank needs to be updated. I do notice, however, that the private pilot requirements in Part 61 and the PTS just say "navigation systems," without specifying a particular type.
 
John Baker said:
Things are continually changing in aviation and aviation training. Students no longer have to learn celestial navigation or Morse Code, Loran is hardly mentioned, ADF is brushed over, but still on the knowledge test. Navigation using VORs is still a big part of learning, since it is still in use, yet all of these, are almost ignored in favor of GPS in the real world.

How soon do you think the private pilot training will be GPS emphasized over VOR and ADF. Right now, the knowledge test barely touches GPS, in favor of the tried and true VORs and ADF, even though they are obviously going the way of the dinosaurs.

I realize it takes government bureaucracies a little longer to catch up with the times. There was a thing on the news the other day about Obama being alerted to America having an unemployment problem, and how he intends to have a committee study the matter. What about the FAA, when do you think it will start emphasizing GPS in pilot training?

John
Click to expand...

Unless you quit training for several years, I'm certain it won't be until long after you pass your PPL checkride.
 
To answer the original question, I think you'll see it change gradually over the next 15 years as Free Flight and NextGen ATC are implemented. I believe that by 2025, you won't be able to fly IFR without a GPS (and maybe ADS-B), and VOR's will be like NDB's are today (or maybe like 4-course ranges).
 
Areeda said:
John,

Sounds like you're frustrated.

For me it depends on what's in the airplane we're training in. If we have GPS, we use it from day 1, we are in complicated airspace and it helps define the practice area.

I have more problems explaining why we use pilotage, dead reckoning, and VOR than getting students to learn everything they can about GPS.

Now when the FAA written test will drop questions about how to calculate distances with an ADF and get some good GPS questions, that's anybody's guess.

Joe
Click to expand...

Hot news, fresh from ASA's curriculum director's visit to OKC: The time-speed-distance problems using ADF will disappear in the next question bank. However, as long as VORs and NDB exist in the system, there will be questions about their use.

I feel the test-writer's pain...sure, questions can be asked about waypoints, receiver sensitivy vs distance to the destination, etc etc etc, but they can't ask questions like "When do you use OBS mode?" because the answer varies between manufacturers....and new hardware pops up every week.

Bob Gardner
 
There are still a lot of airplanes (like mine) that do not have panel-mount GPS units. I can use my portable GPS for "situational awareness" but not for any instrument approaches. When the VOR's and NDB's are gone, it will cost the average airplane owner quite a bit more to fly IFR. Besides being expensive to install, GPS units require updates to the database, which of course have to be paid for.
 
kkoran said:
John,

When was celestial navigation required?
Click to expand...

I do not have a clue if it ever was part of the training. I made an assumption after reading one of Earnest K Gann's books that mentioned having to use celestial navigation while crossing the Atlantic. I just figured he must have had to learn it in his training. I also was using similar thinking when I mentioned Morse code.

See, now this is why I have a disclaimer at the bottom of my posts. I get to say anything I want, whereas you can't. That is because you don't have a disclaimer. :)

John
 
kkoran said:
John,

When was celestial navigation required?
Click to expand...

I had to do celestial navigation, pressure pattern navigation and radar navigation along with the standard dead reckoning, visual, and VOR (TACAN) navigation to get my AF Wings.:D

The did not teach me LORAN.. that was a Navy thing. :rolleyes:
 
John Baker said:
I do not have a clue if it ever was part of the training. I made an assumption after reading one of Earnest K Gann's books that mentioned having to use celestial navigation while crossing the Atlantic.
Click to expand...
That's true, but they had a rated Flight Navigator along to do that stuff. AFAIK, that was never part of a pilot certificate requirement, although they may have had one pilot who was also rated as a navigator to do the cel nav.

And to this day, I regret not taking the military equivalence test for Flight Nav while I was at the Undergraduate Nav School at Mather in 1980 -- too late now.
 
John Baker said:
See, now this is why I have a disclaimer at the bottom of my posts. I get to say anything I want, whereas you can't. That is because you don't have a disclaimer. :)

John
Click to expand...

Ehhhhh, don't sweat it. We all started where you are. The only stupid question is the one unasked.

Cheers!!:D
 
Tony brought up the idea a while ago. I wonder if it would be possible to construct your very own 4 course A-N range, and legally operate it. Maybe Jay could install it at his aviation hotel in IA as an additional attraction :D
 
It sounds suspiciously like having a magenta line of death, Pete. ;)
 
Yeah I was more concerned about the Leagl part.
 
vontresc said:
Tony brought up the idea a while ago. I wonder if it would be possible to construct your very own 4 course A-N range, and legally operate it. Maybe Jay could install it at his aviation hotel in IA as an additional attraction :D
Click to expand...

If you have a ham radio license you might be able to find a ham band in which it would be legal to do this as an experiment. Here's 47 CFR Part 97, which governs ham radio:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...e&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title47/47cfr97_main_02.tpl

(But note the notification and registration requirements in 97.15(a) for antennas located near or at a public use airport.)
 
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