Pilot - MX cooperation

[David36]

I would like to talk a little about how you found the proper way to cooperate with maintenance guys, how to ensure your best as a pilot regarding repairs, works done etc.

It is known by regulations that the pilot is the one who has the ultimate responsibility of integrity and safety of the aircraft he operates, so how do you find from your experience the best way to ensure this together with checking mx logs, have a good preflight after repairs and other tips related? How can a pilot ensure that that work is done as it should, except being itself a mech?

Sorry mech guys, no argue for you, the purpose of the thread is to find out the best way to cooperate, despite that old advice which says to never trust you. :mrgreen:

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I would recommend every owner, club, partnership have at least one member attend Savvy Aviators Seminar. They are over a 2 day weekend and about $599. I am sure i have saved this amount or more every year that I have owned my airplanes. Also join a type club. If you own a Comanche join ICS.....etc.. Type clubs have the best source of data for your airplane. You should know every ad on your plane and ensure it was done and signed off in your logs and if you have on going ADs then you should know what those are, what other aviators are paying to get those done and have an Idea of what you mechanic is going to charge you to do same.

172/Cherokees are not terribly difficult and most mechanics can service them but if you get into more complex aircraft you can often save money by having a type specialist like Comanche, Mooney, Bonanzi, 210, 310's and such.

One of the big things I found and was surprised by in Aviation is that a bid/quote is not quote, even if in writing. There seems to be no attempt to honor prices and times given. I even had a mechanic try to charge me $200 more for a cylinder after he quoted it because he mistakenly quoted his cost on the purchase of the cylinder and printed it out and gave it to me. Small 1-2 man shops are often extremely unprofessional and you likely will get anything from a hillbilly with a certification to a grease monkey A&P who has his buddy IA come in to do the inspection for him.

When and if you find a good mechanic, keep him, wait for him during scheduling conflicts, only use him to the extent possible. My mechanic gets a set of steaks when I pickup my Comanche from annual. And he works with me to keep costs down. He allows me to source larger more expensive parts so that he doesn't have to mark them up 40-80%.

With that said you "Should" get quotes in writing and make clear that you never want any surprises to stop and call you when they see something that you are not aware of. They sometimes get the idea that "it has to be fixed anyway, I will fix it and he will be ok with an extra $1200 on what I told him." You don't want to allow him to have this attitude.

Savvy Aviator recommends that you have a letter on file which states that they only do work for which they have given you a written quote and will stop and call you if something comes up that exceeds the quote by xx amount or %.

Further with Annual inspections you should have them give you a complete list of discrepancies before authorizing the repair of same. Make it clear you may or may not have the same IA/Shop do the repairs of discrepancies depending on what they are and their total cost.

You can always have the discrepancies repaired by another mechanic and this is recommended by some in the industry as their is a built in conflict of interest in having the same IA do the inspection and telling you what must be fixed, and his also drumming up business for himself to do those repairs. This is like letting the BMW service writer determine what must be done to your BMW each visit and then giving him a signed check.

This is easiest done on a field with more than one repair shop or if you have a hangar and can have an a&p come into your hanger to fix any discrepancies.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I know plenty of aviators who have the pilot go up with them when returning the plane. I guess they figure if his ass is in the right seat he will think twice before signing it off and climbing in with you.

Also, don't fall into the trap when the mechanic says its ready but I will have the paperwork done tomorrow. You cannot legally fly it without the paperwork and sign off returning it to service. Should anything happen it is your ass x3.

My AI picks up my plane from my field and then returns it when he is done. I do not ride with him but I do pickup the logs when I write the check. No logs, no check. No job is done until the logs are signed off and returned.

Some guys leave their logs with Mechanics, I do not recommend this either.

BTW- take your logs to work and photo copy every page and create your own logs on DVD in pdf. If you ever loose your logs or mechanic says he gave them too you when he didn't, then it might be the only thing you got. It takes an hour or two to do this but if you ever need it could save you a great deal of aggravation.

On accessories use the term "IRAN" Inspect and repair as needed rather than Overhaul. Overhauling has a particular legal meaning and requires that they replace perfectly working parts which is often much more expensive than just fixing it as needed.

Cylinders are bolt on Accessories. If you have a damaged cylinder or two or three you can take them off and have them repaired....Many aviators will be scared into spending $20-40-60k for a OH engine when it is not warranted. If the mechanic is having a bad year or has a kid in college you will be his saving grace if you are just a little bit stupid.

 

[flyingmoose]

If you want to be "Savvy" and understand what is going on with you airplane, you just have to learn. If you can help with inspections you will get untold knowledge into the aircraft and what the inspecters are looking for and how they get fixed.

Tony seems to have had some bad experiences, its not like that everywhere and you really should not have that much trouble getting stuff done to your airplane. Network and find out who you can/might be able to trust. If you are unsure you can always get another opionion. Being able to "Communicate" is no different than communicating with other people in anything you do. My best advice is....If you cannot talk with your a&p IA and be able to ask questions while they explain everything you want to know, in a way you can understand...walk! I am a big believer in this. They should be able to take the time to show you or explain it to you.

Good luck
Cheers

 

[schmookeeg]

He allows me to source larger more expensive parts so that he doesn't have to mark them up 40-80%.

Does your IA really mark up parts 40-80%? That seems grossly excessive, particularly for large parts.

We do 20% for small parts, 10% for large ones, and 0% for outside services -- as a default, but then will alter this on a case-by-case basis if things are "out of round", so to speak.

In exchange for the markup, we will pay our labor if our part fails prematurely, and for local pickups, this covers our transport costs (which are non-negligible). We have also flown to our clients in AOG situations at our expense.

I thought the above was fairly standard practice. Apparently we're rubes and could have been enjoying tech startup-grade margins. Who knew?

 

[poadeleted20]

The best way to do this is to take your mechanic to lunch now and then, and get him/her talking about your plane. The more interest you show in your aircraft's maintenance, the more the mechanic will be willing to explain things to you when work is done.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Does your IA really mark up parts 40-80%? That seems grossly excessive, particularly for large parts.

We do 20% for small parts, 10% for large ones, and 0% for outside services -- as a default, but then will alter this on a case-by-case basis if things are "out of round", so to speak.

In exchange for the markup, we will pay our labor if our part fails prematurely, and for local pickups, this covers our transport costs (which are non-negligible). We have also flown to our clients in AOG situations at our expense.

I thought the above was fairly standard practice. Apparently we're rubes and could have been enjoying tech startup-grade margins. Who knew?

You sound very fair Mike. Next time I get broke down in Thermal, maybe it will be worth it for me to have you come out there. The local guys really try to hose you at TRM. That is the airport I fly into most often when Wintering in LaQuinta. I have not done business with La Quinta as I don't like their cats crawling on me.

About 9 years ago I had TRM install a battery in a Cherokee and the bill came to $470. The same battery was at Aircraft Spruce just up the road about 60 miles for $135. He told me he doesn't markup much and I took his word for it.

At my home field the local yokel attempted to charge me 300% markup on a $60 5 ply tire.

Another IA tried to charge me 8 hrs to replace a fuel cell. That might be the going time on a 182 but its only 2-3 hrs on a Comanche.

I'm not saying all IA's and A&Ps are unethical or over priced but I sure am a magnet for them. What you charge for your time and markup is your business but just don't change the arrangement after the deal.

So to all Air Craft owners keep your eyes open, get most of your work done at home field and if you think something might be going out replace it before going across country as Interstate Mechanics seem to $$$.

 

[schmookeeg]

You sound very fair Mike. Next time I get broke down in Thermal, maybe it will be worth it for me to have you come out there. The local guys really try to hose you at TRM. That is the airport I fly into most often when Wintering in LaQuinta. I have not done business with La Quinta as I don't like their cats crawling on me.

About 9 years ago I had TRM install a battery in a Cherokee and the bill came to $470. The same battery was at Aircraft Spruce just up the road about 60 miles for $135. He told me he doesn't markup much and I took his word for it.

At my home field the local yokel attempted to charge me 300% markup on a $60 5 ply tire.

Another IA tried to charge me 8 hrs to replace a fuel cell. That might be the going time on a 182 but its only 2-3 hrs on a Comanche.

I'm not saying all IA's and A&Ps are unethical or over priced but I sure am a magnet for them. What you charge for your time and markup is your business but just don't change the arrangement after the deal.

So to all Air Craft owners keep your eyes open, get most of your work done at home field and if you think something might be going out replace it before going across country as Interstate Mechanics seem to $$$.

Oh, I understand -- I think you're talking about "AOG" pricing, and I've encountered it in the wild.. the idea that you're hosed anyway, so the mechanics, in the self image of knight in shining armor, inflates the price commensurately (cough, adds a zero). I think there's a famous radiator/tow shop in Baker like that

Out of curiousity, are your annual parts markups like that also? I read that your current IA "allows you" to save the 40-80% markup by sourcing parts yourself, which I found alarming. $435 for a 12V battery is definitely a deep, er, dorking.. -- I'll steer clear of TRM, other than to bail out our clientele. Heh.

Give a shout next time you're in this neck of the woods. I'd enjoy buying a round of beverages over some hangar BS if you ever get in the mood.

 

[wabower]

Tony, if I had to work a tenth that hard to keep a plane in the air I'd sell the damn thing tomorrow and never go to the airport again.

I know plenty of aviators who have the pilot go up with them when returning the plane. I guess they figure if his ass is in the right seat he will think twice before signing it off and climbing in with you.

Also, don't fall into the trap when the mechanic says its ready but I will have the paperwork done tomorrow. You cannot legally fly it without the paperwork and sign off returning it to service. Should anything happen it is your ass x3.

My AI picks up my plane from my field and then returns it when he is done. I do not ride with him but I do pickup the logs when I write the check. No logs, no check. No job is done until the logs are signed off and returned.

Some guys leave their logs with Mechanics, I do not recommend this either.

BTW- take your logs to work and photo copy every page and create your own logs on DVD in pdf. If you ever loose your logs or mechanic says he gave them too you when he didn't, then it might be the only thing you got. It takes an hour or two to do this but if you ever need it could save you a great deal of aggravation.

On accessories use the term "IRAN" Inspect and repair as needed rather than Overhaul. Overhauling has a particular legal meaning and requires that they replace perfectly working parts which is often much more expensive than just fixing it as needed.

Cylinders are bolt on Accessories. If you have a damaged cylinder or two or three you can take them off and have them repaired....Many aviators will be scared into spending $20-40-60k for a OH engine when it is not warranted. If the mechanic is having a bad year or has a kid in college you will be his saving grace if you are just a little bit stupid.

 

[Ted]

Tony, if I had to work a tenth that hard to keep a plane in the air I'd sell the damn thing tomorrow and never go to the airport again.

Agreed. Shouldn't be that difficult.

Spend time talking to your mechanics about the plane maintenance and ask questions is the biggest one. Do research yourself. Helping to save the mechanics time on tedious things typically goes over well.

 

[David36]

Quite interesting advices. I really appreciate.

I would like some advices regarding post-maintenance flights and also, about the ensurance regarding critical structural repairs like airframe or flight controls.

Also, what interests me particularly is how to ensure the safety condition of the airplane, considering I'm not yet an owner, I use to fly planes which I don't own. I noticed that some of you have focused on the financial problems of maintenance, I appreciate it also, it will be useful when I'll have my personal airplane.

 

[Ted]

A standard control check saves many lives. That's the biggest thing. A ground run-up and check for leaks should be performed, as well.

Everyone has their own preferences. It's not bad to have someone else along, if for no other reason than to keep an eye on the oil pressure gauge and make sure that it doesn't drop to 0. I don't want anyone along who I think is going to panic if something goes wrong, at that point he/she is just in the way. Some folks think they need to require the mechanic to come along to make them more motivated to make sure the plane is right. I think if you have to strike fear into them to do a good job, you need another mechanic.