Personal Minimums / Wind and Gusts

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dmcquade

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New Hampshire
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FlyingInNH
Hey all,

With regard to your personal minimums, what would you recommend for a new pilot in terms of gusts? For example, today in NH there is a nice 12KT wind, but 20KT gusts. Having only 17 hours under my belt I'm going to probably pass on flying today unless my instructor wants to hop in and do some maneuvers, but I wouldn't fly solo in 20KT gusts until I'm a lot more proficient on my landings.

So the question, does anyone have any recommendations on a personal minimum for gusts?
 
This is one of those pilot "non answers" but it is true.
Only you can make that decision.

Your instructor should have set a limit it in your log book when signed off to solo
 
It depends on runway alignment and what you're flying. And in the case of a 17 hr student…solo, where you are in your training.
 
Gusts can be very tricky and challenging. Some of my most difficult landings I have done were in gusty conditions. A strong steady cross wind at 20 knots is easier to manage than a 8 knot crosswind gusting to 16. Even a direct headwind gust can catch you off guard and make for some fun stuff.

I would personally advise a student pilot not fly with gusty conditions unless with an instructor. However, that being said... If your instructor is available, get him to go up with you. Good to experience with someone there to help. If you go anyway, remember you can always go-around and be ready!
 
During training I was provided limits. Look at your solo signoff.

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I was also provided limits on my solo endorsement. Steady wind, no more than 10 knot crosswind. I am not sure about your setup, but during my training, my instructor also required me to get approval for each solo flight. She would not have signed me off for 12G20 at 17hrs time.
 
asechrest said:
I was also provided limits on my solo endorsement.
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Same... and they increased as I improved. That being said, my self imposed limitations are based on experience so it's hard to say what they would be for you.

Edit: I remember someone posting a graphic that had wind conditions that were categorized by green, yellow, red. Pretty interesting.
 
A personal minimum is exactly what it sounds like; it's a personal minimum. No one else can recommend you a personal minimum. Take a CFI up and see what your limits are
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
During training I was provided limits. Look at your solo signoff.
Click to expand...

I remember having crosswind limitations too, but they were specified on a separate sheet that was kept in my file rather than part of the generic solo endorsements in my logbook.

Guess the procedure varies...
 
Now, the question was for a new pilot.

Student pilot limitations will be sufficient, but the real answer is to go up with an instructor on an over-limit day and raise the limits.

My limits vary. During the summer, they are bigger. Weather here has been consistently extremely calm most of the winter, so they are on the low side now. When the wind starts to pick up, I'll go solo to a really wide runway (generally Half Moon Bay or Oakland, both of which have 150 foot wide runways more than a mile long), and practice low approaches and then landings.

Gusty HEADwinds can take the wind out of your sails. Take them seriously, especially as the gusts approach 0.3 Vs0.

In gusty winds, I find it not very helpful to separate crosswinds from headwinds. A headwind can turn into a half-crosswind with as little as 30 deg variation in direction. I treat them all as crosswinds.
 
MAKG1 said:
Gusty HEADwinds can take the wind out of your sails. Take them seriously, especially as the gusts approach 0.3 Vs0.
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Very difficult to fly the 0.3Vs0 approach. I've never even tried it. Maybe Bob Hoover could manage it....

:D (I know it was a typo, just didn't see the need to resist tempation)
 
Clark1961 said:
Very difficult to fly the 0.3Vs0 approach. I've never even tried it. Maybe Bob Hoover could manage it....

:D (I know it was a typo, just didn't see the need to resist tempation)
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Not a typo.

Fly an approach at 1.3 Vs0 like you're supposed to, with a 0.3 Vs0 gust headwind. The gust quits. What's your airspeed now?

0.3 Vs0 is less than 20 knots in a Cessna or Piper trainer. That's not all that an extreme gust factor.
 
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Yes, only you can determine what you can do and what you can't. Personally I would choose to stay on the ground with 20kt gusts. For solo you should have limitations in your logbook that your CFI wrote in when he/she signed you off.
 
MAKG1 said:
Not a typo.

Fly an approach at 1.3 Vs0 like you're supposed to, with a 0.3 Vs0 gust headwind. The gust quits. What's your airspeed now?
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okay, I read it too quickly but with gusty winds you aren't supposed to fly 1.3 Vs0. You're supposed to fly 1.3 Vs0 + 1/2 the gust factor.

So, to turn it around on you, what's your airspeed now?
 
What plane will be flown? What is its max demonstrated crosswind?
Don't all certified planes have a published max demonstrated crosswind? Perhaps a starting point would be 50% of that?

Agree as other have stated it is something only an individual can decide for themselves.
Agree as has been stated that number will vary with the plane being flown.
 
There is a generic answer I've heard many times before.
And while it does sound somewhat harsh, it actually bears a lot of truth and makes a good point.
So imagine someone giving you the answer in a very nice and polite manner: "If you are asking whether you should fly, you should probably not".

I have made no-go calls in the past where the forecast looked iffy and I could not decide whether to fly or not but recognized my doubt and stayed on the ground. Did some of those forecasts turn into nice weather and a non-issue? Sure. But at least I was driving wishing I would be up there than the other way around. :)

See you in the skies!
 
Listen to your CFI,any answers you get here,are recommendations. From people who won't be in the plane with you.
 
asechrest said:
I was also provided limits on my solo endorsement. Steady wind, no more than 10 knot crosswind. I am not sure about your setup, but during my training, my instructor also required me to get approval for each solo flight. She would not have signed me off for 12G20 at 17hrs time.
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My instructor also put limits on this on my solo flights. As I progressed through training and got more and more landings under my belt, they increased. After passing the checkride, I felt fairly comfortable with those limits for the first month or so. As time has gone by, my time in the air has been a LOT less and I no longer feel as comfortable in the same conditions. Consequently, I will only go up when the winds are a lot more mild. If I start getting out there more often and feel more comfortable with it, I will once again bump it up.
 
My instructor just said to stay under 10 knots, but that was pretty high I think in retrospect.

Honestly though, that was enough because you should self-police yourself. I didn't touch a crosswind I wasn't confident I could handle and for a while that was anything more then like 6-8knots.

Go fly with your CFI on a windy day. You'll be surprised at how difficult anything more then 6 knots or so is for a student pilot early on.
 
Your instructor should set wind limits for you. When it's windy hive him or her a call and go out and extend those limits.
 
Gusts are tuff to put a number on.

As a CFI I put zero limits on my students, instead I put that they need to call me before ANY solo flghts.

I'd rather they make their own go-no go decisions, bounce them off me, use me like a sounding board. Nine point nine times out of ten I haven't had to tell a student not to go up, I might ask one or two questions and they'll make the right decision.

Flying should not be taught as a black and white thing.
 
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Unfortunately, it is highly subjective. My advice is always try the landing. If it gets to be too much either try it again or go elsewhere more aligned to the winds.
 
dmcquade said:
Hey all,

With regard to your personal minimums, what would you recommend for a new pilot in terms of gusts? For example, today in NH there is a nice 12KT wind, but 20KT gusts. Having only 17 hours under my belt I'm going to probably pass on flying today unless my instructor wants to hop in and do some maneuvers, but I wouldn't fly solo in 20KT gusts until I'm a lot more proficient on my landings.

So the question, does anyone have any recommendations on a personal minimum for gusts?
Click to expand...

http://www.midislandair.com/FLIGHT-SCHOOL/Personal-Limitations-Checklist.php#r6
 
I used to be nervous about wind to the point where I wouldn't go solo if the wind was >10kts. Here's how I got over it:

My instructor had me go up with him and spend an hour+ in the pattern in nasty gusty days using the worst runways. On one of these flights we hit wind shear on climbout... just a big bump, no big deal but an attention getter. On another one I was standing in the hangar with rain pouring down. Called him up and he said "this should pass in a few minutes, as soon as the ceiling comes up to 1500, taxi over". We flew in that... bumping around everywhere fighting the controls all the way down... even flying through a small lingering rain shower.

We kept this up until we were going out and he was basically a passenger and I was completely confident in my ability to land safely. At some point it just all came together... just like my first landings before I soloed and I became a better pilot for it.
 
Thanks all!

My CFI didn't put minimums, but I am required to call him or the other CFI before I go and give them the weather briefing. I'll talk to him about recommendations for minimums for me. At the moment my minimums require a pretty perfect day ... Which is good ... I was just curious to see if there was a public consensus (like 1-hour fuel reserves) or if it was more subjective than that. Thanks again!
 
As others have said, ask your CFI, who knows better than we do both what your skills are and what plane you're flying.

The best advice from here is probably just to be conservative, and err on the side of caution.
 
There is no set answer. What is comfortable with one person can be uncomfortable for the other
 
Ended up canceling my solo XC this afternoon and moving up to a shorter area solo. High teens gusting in the 20s was in the TAF for later.

Plan changed to go out do some maneuvers, but be back in the pattern by X time. If the X Wind is under limits stay and work the pattern a few times keeping an eye on the wind and stop if it was over limits.

When i got back to the airport AWOS was good, but asking for a wind check from the tower showed it was dated. Weather was coming in faster than TAFd. 12G16 at 220 for runway 16

Wasn't immediately happy for my setup for the first landing and asked the tower for a low approach to feel for my corrections and gusts. Ended up pretty decently setup by the time i got to the runway and through my go around. Did the traffic pattern and came in for the landing.

i seem to have the habit of removing aileron correction during the flare (maybe this is common) and ended up more left of center than i would normally find acceptable, but it wasn't unsafe and i look forward to practicing more. Hope there will be some day that my and my CFIs schedules line up with weather to just go out and beat up Xwind landings.
 
Don't go. You are questioning yourself which in itself is a no go determiner.

If you ever question yourself, the weather, your equipment, your health, don't go...
 
dmcquade said:
Hey all,

With regard to your personal minimums, what would you recommend for a new pilot in terms of gusts? For example, today in NH there is a nice 12KT wind, but 20KT gusts. Having only 17 hours under my belt I'm going to probably pass on flying today unless my instructor wants to hop in and do some maneuvers, but I wouldn't fly solo in 20KT gusts until I'm a lot more proficient on my landings.

So the question, does anyone have any recommendations on a personal minimum for gusts?
Click to expand...

What is the crosswind component? It really dpends on how far along you are. At 17 hrs it may or may not be a positive experience, but eventually in the next 20 hrs, you're going to have to learn to deal with those winds, so you can't always avoid them.
 
dmcquade said:
Thanks all!

My CFI didn't put minimums, but I am required to call him or the other CFI before I go and give them the weather briefing. I'll talk to him about recommendations for minimums for me. At the moment my minimums require a pretty perfect day ... Which is good ... I was just curious to see if there was a public consensus (like 1-hour fuel reserves) or if it was more subjective than that. Thanks again!
Click to expand...


Sounds like you got a good CFI.

Just keep slowly increasing the winds you fly in, also like the others said take your CFI up one day in some heavy winds and break yourself in, ideally with a cross wind beyond the max demo of the plane.
 
MAKG1 said:
Not a typo.

Fly an approach at 1.3 Vs0 like you're supposed to, with a 0.3 Vs0 gust headwind. The gust quits. What's your airspeed now?

0.3 Vs0 is less than 20 knots in a Cessna or Piper trainer. That's not all that an extreme gust factor.
Click to expand...

The gust doesn't change the plane's speed, trim does that. What the gust does is steepens that section of the approach, so you add a little throttle in the gust to reduce the rate of sink. Your relationship with stall only changes when you fly through a frontal boundary and the wing instantaneously switches from head to tail, then you drop relative airspeed momentarily, but as long as you are more then 3-4' off the deck, you aren't going to have a problem with it.

Trim the plane for the proper speed and use the throttle to control the descent. If you have a strong headwind, you make a much steeper final approach path to minimize the extra throttle required to drag it in.
 
henning, that's true eventually, but not instantaneously. I've had a gust convert a short field approach to a mush -- with a stall warning and a lot of sink -- 20 feet up over the fence. Full throttle was not enough to arrest the sink, but it was enough to prevent a prop strike. The aircraft bounced once and I went around. I landed and inspected the nose gear and prop, and found nothing, then reported the incident so the owner could keep an eye on it.

Even a light aircraft has some inertia, and will fly the same ground speed for an instant as the wind gusts. Then trim can do its work by reducing the angle of attack to gain the airspeed back. It will not gain it instantaneously.
 
Henning said:
The gust doesn't change the plane's speed, trim does that.
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Yes it does, both airspeed and groundspeed...as MAKG said, instantaneously. It's coming out of a gust on very short final or round-out that'll bite your ass, not going into one.

BTW...shouldn't this thread be titled personal maximums? :wink2:
 
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With respect to the OP, a 17 hour student has no 'personal minimums' Your CFI -The one thats training you, and that CFI only; sets limitations as part of your solo endorsement.
Discussions of personal minimums ('minimum' from the IFR minimum vis etc) are valuable, even this early on, but the OP isn't experienced enough to make the call. If you're not comfortable and your CFI says go, that's fine. Do the flight dual with the instructor there as a confidence booster..
As mentioned before, once your a PPL (and i'm sure you'll be a good one based on your question); if you have a doubt, there is no doubt, but make sure you have the confidence to get back down in weather conditions you wouldn't choose to launch in, because you never know when you might need to make an unplanned landing.
Safe flying!
 
timwinters said:
Yes it does, both airspeed and groundspeed...as MAKG said, instantaneously. It's coming out of a gust on very short final or round-out that'll bite your ass, not going into one.

BTW...shouldn't this thread be titled personal maximums? :wink2:
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Changes in wind speed aren't instantaneous either unless you fly through a boundary. Watch your ASI in gusty winds and tell me how much it jumps.
 
Huh? I've had several occasions where I've Maintained at or near 123mph Va and have the stall horn sound as I get hammered by gusts or shear or whatever your favorite descriptor is. Since airplanes fly in relative wind I'd say my speed must be changing. The airspeed indicator sure indicates such.
 
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