PC-12 midair breakup?

[Ted]

With the instructor laptop plugged in, you can change a good portion of the current conditions without pausing with the click of the mouse. How would you like a 40kt front-left crosswind and gusts of 30 after that, low visibility, heavy snow, and a PFD and MFD failure? The only problem was adding wind instantly jerked the sim around upon changing it. It scares a lot of people!

That sounds like my kind of instructional fun.

The one that did have me working was OEI icing crosswinds to mins ILS with AI failure and the ILS was dialed in incorrectly for my HSI (thanks to my co-pilot who was "helping" and making things difficult, since neither of us were impressed with the challenge we were getting). Anyway, that one was work, but still got it down.

The SimCom 421 sim is also very old - I think it predates my birth. So, it does have limitations.

 

[overdrive148]

That sounds like my kind of instructional fun.

The one that did have me working was OEI icing crosswinds to mins ILS with AI failure and the ILS was dialed in incorrectly for my HSI (thanks to my co-pilot who was "helping" and making things difficult, since neither of us were impressed with the challenge we were getting). Anyway, that one was work, but still got it down.

The SimCom 421 sim is also very old - I think it predates my birth. So, it does have limitations.

That sounds brutal! The 172 is much easier to fly, but I can still throw some people for a loop. During the expo a couple girls from the 737 sim across the way that I gave a ride dared me to go ride in their non-motion sim. Of course, 737 with no fuel, major wind shear, borderline IMC, on short final to a tiny airport with a mountain directly at the end of it seemed a little unfair I did manage to touch down...just with the tail instead of the wheels

I didn't make it hard for them in their first try, but on their 2nd after that flight, I gave them a carrier landing with a 25kt straight left crosswind (pushing into the island of the carrier) with 20kt wind shear, low vis and snow for mediocre braking. And failed about every instrument I could find in the instructor panel. It's only fair! (I landed it after a few tries but it wasn't pretty). Never been in another sim but it does look older FMX is pretty nice. Ton of work to build though.

I also kind of flew through the carrier (40kt headwind and flaps, 20kt, 0, 40kt tailwind, 40kt tailwind and a dive to bring airspeed up to VNE with a GS of 200 or so kt). And landed on a suspension bridge to assert dominance.

 

[Warrior]

I wouldn't call Kennedy's Piper complex......

I believe that the Saratoga was Kennedy's plane. I think that plane is retractable, constant speed prop, and a little faster than the training Cessna 172's, etc. The FAA in its wisdom calls it complex and requires folks like me without complex training to get some before I fly it.

Granted the Saratoga isn't as complex as the single turboprop under discussion.

But I don't think anyone on here would recommend that I just go out and get in a Saratoga and fly it with only Piper Warrior experience.

 

[Ted]

That sounds brutal!

It kept the heart rate up and I was working, especially since I didn't have a way to cover the AI. The resultant panel layout I had was something only the Russians could love, it was so bad. But, I landed the thing.

Thing is, something like that doesn't compare much to some of the real life situations hat you come across when dealing with weather. Icing, thunderstorms... thunderstorms especially. I'm reminded of one night when several bad decisions left me boxed in for a night visual approach to my home airport (next to a ridge) with a thunderstorm descending, high on short final, and rain so hard I couldn't see anything but the runway lights. Couldn't see the runway at all, and had to wait for it to calm down before taxiing to the FBO. Fortunately, we were in the Aztec.

After that, my boss (who was right seat) never questioned if I called him up and said I couldn't make it back in time for work on Monday due to weather.

 

[Henning]

Sims can be psychologically damaging. I dont like simulated dying.

Why? I don't personally view it as simulated dying, I consider it a tactile education in the limitations of a machine. It's like a book that gives you tactile as well as visual data to remember for future use.

 

[Henning]

That sounds like my kind of instructional fun.

The one that did have me working was OEI icing crosswinds to mins ILS with AI failure and the ILS was dialed in incorrectly for my HSI (thanks to my co-pilot who was "helping" and making things difficult, since neither of us were impressed with the challenge we were getting). Anyway, that one was work, but still got it down.

The SimCom 421 sim is also very old - I think it predates my birth. So, it does have limitations.

Since the plane predates your birth as well, the limitations aren't likely significant. The X-15 program relied heavily on their sim, and that predates Simcom's sim

 

[Ted]

Since the plane predates your birth as well, the limitations aren't likely significant. The X-15 program relied heavily on their sim, and that predates Simcom's sim

It's very relevant, seeing as computer technology has changed hugely in the past 30+ years, and this is just an advanced X-Plane/FlightSim.

 

[Henning]

It's very relevant, seeing as computer technology has changed hugely in the past 30+ years, and this is just an advanced X-Plane/FlightSim.

Yeah, no, that's no good, you need the real sim, the one that makes you sweat because it feels real. I've never seen Simcom's stuff, just Flight Safety and American Airlines.

 

[overdrive148]

It kept the heart rate up and I was working, especially since I didn't have a way to cover the AI. The resultant panel layout I had was something only the Russians could love, it was so bad. But, I landed the thing.

Thing is, something like that doesn't compare much to some of the real life situations hat you come across when dealing with weather. Icing, thunderstorms... thunderstorms especially. I'm reminded of one night when several bad decisions left me boxed in for a night visual approach to my home airport (next to a ridge) with a thunderstorm descending, high on short final, and rain so hard I couldn't see anything but the runway lights. Couldn't see the runway at all, and had to wait for it to calm down before taxiing to the FBO. Fortunately, we were in the Aztec.

After that, my boss (who was right seat) never questioned if I called him up and said I couldn't make it back in time for work on Monday due to weather.

I do kind of question the real-world relativity from the sim, but IMC and instruments do feel very relevant. As for real world Tstorms, never had those or icing or been boxed in much of anywhere but only like 100 hours total. The wind shear and other fun stuff is icing on the cake and are rather enjoyable to fly in and mess around. Doing a landing the short way across the carrier with a 40kt headwind etc. Glad you made it down okay - double glad your boss was there to see it!

 

[James331]

Yeah, no, that's no good, you need the real sim, the one that makes you sweat because it feels real. I've never seen Simcom's stuff, just Flight Safety and American Airlines.

Redbird is just a modified version of MS flight sim.

 

[Henning]

Redbird is just a modified version of MS flight sim.

I've never seen one. The only sims I am familiar with are the ones that are built as a real cockpit. PC sims have some usefulness I see with IFR procedure learning, but not so much for muscle learning.

 

[Ted]

Glad you made it down okay - double glad your boss was there to see it!

That was a few years back and almost 2,000 hours ago. I've had many more stories since then.

 

[Ted]

Yeah, no, that's no good, you need the real sim, the one that makes you sweat because it feels real. I've never seen Simcom's stuff, just Flight Safety and American Airlines.

SimCom has two sims for the 421 - full motion (old) and non-motion (new). The full motion one I like the motion on, but its real fault is the computers are too slow. It has about a 1/4 second lag vs the airplane. So, turn the yoke, nothing happens for 1/4 second or so. Takes a bit to get used to. Their 425 full motion I didn't feel was much better. And the 421 non-motion was better right up until the computers crashed and the instructor had no idea what to do.

 

[MAKG1]

It's very relevant, seeing as computer technology has changed hugely in the past 30+ years, and this is just an advanced X-Plane/FlightSim.

Some of the really old sims have limitations that are quite different from what you might expect from a current desktop sim. They are not necessarily slower. Many of them were hideously expensive analog computers, used because the AC was by far the fastest way to solve a differential equation. And it still is, though the development costs are generally considered too high for anyone to use them anymore; digital control and simulation is much better understood and cheaper for given performance now. Analog computation gets you out of the usual sampling limitations we're used to, but it gets you a whole bunch more related to the dynamics, especially those related to saturation. But that strategy was good enough to make autopilots in the early 70s, with the computational power available then.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Well, to fly for my company you will need the minimum times for insurance:

2500 total time
1000 PIC
500 multi and then pt 135 IFR times. 400 series Cessna helpful but not required.

I get unsolicited resumes that have much more time than required.

Our company will transition to the PC-12 next year, and add pilots. The insurance will add more minimums to fly for my company, a few for example:

Initial training (Simcom mentioned)
100 hours turbine,
25 hours in make and model, for those with less time then the check airman will have to ride right seat until the 25 hours is met.
25 hours in flight after passing the checkride with a check airman (like airline IOE, and will be counted towards the 25 hours total time in the PC-12, if needed)

These are just insurance requirements. When I start asking for resumes I will pick the best applicants. I will bet all will far excede the minimum requirements. The applicant will get a chance to prove him/her self with logged total times and previous experience on their resume.

I have two medics, one patient and possibly a patient family member on board. So no, I am not willing to give someone without minimum flight times a chance. Probably any applicants with just minimum flight times won't make the first cut.

Hope this helps you understand a little more.

There's nothing wrong with requiring that kind of time, if you pay for it. Which, you probably do. Unfortunately, there are too many companies who don't pay for that kind of experience. I bet everyone here would say that I had no business being in a 1900, but hey it worked out. I think I had 700 hours of airplane time when I got in it.

 

[James331]

Well, to fly for my company you will need the minimum times for insurance:

2500 total time
1000 PIC
500 multi and then pt 135 IFR times. 400 series Cessna helpful but not required.

I get unsolicited resumes that have much more time than required.

Our company will transition to the PC-12 next year, and add pilots. The insurance will add more minimums to fly for my company, a few for example:

Initial training (Simcom mentioned)
100 hours turbine,
25 hours in make and model, for those with less time then the check airman will have to ride right seat until the 25 hours is met.
25 hours in flight after passing the checkride with a check airman (like airline IOE, and will be counted towards the 25 hours total time in the PC-12, if needed)

These are just insurance requirements. When I start asking for resumes I will pick the best applicants. I will bet all will far excede the minimum requirements. The applicant will get a chance to prove him/her self with logged total times and previous experience on their resume.

I have two medics, one patient and possibly a patient family member on board. So no, I am not willing to give someone without minimum flight times a chance. Probably any applicants with just minimum flight times won't make the first cut.

Hope this helps you understand a little more.

That's almost a carbon copy of our mins, minus we don't ask for time in type, but do require a few hundred actual instrument and a little more turbine.

 

[Jaybird180]

Why? I don't personally view it as simulated dying, I consider it a tactile education in the limitations of a machine. It's like a book that gives you tactile as well as visual data to remember for future use.

Sorry, I don't read Braille.

 

[Ted]

There's nothing wrong with requiring that kind of time, if you pay for it. Which, you probably do. Unfortunately, there are too many companies who don't pay for that kind of experience. I bet everyone here would say that I had no business being in a 1900, but hey it worked out. I think I had 700 hours of airplane time when I got in it.

Single pilot?

 

[Henning]

Sorry, I don't read Braille.

You do read 'airplane' though, and you do gain muscle memory.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

That's almost a carbon copy of our mins, minus we don't ask for time in type, but do require a few hundred actual instrument and a little more turbine.

Silly?, but if everyone requires that kind of experience, how does a wannabe pilot ever get it?

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Single pilot?

You bet. It's not hard to fly, if you are trained properly and fly regularly.

 

[Henning]

Silly?, but if everyone requires that kind of experience, how does a wannabe pilot ever get it?

Freight/utility/CFI/**** and Blood/pipeline/banner tow.... Stuff where you will only kill yourself or an equally willing participant.

 

[James331]

Freight/utility/CFI/**** and Blood/pipeline/banner tow.... Stuff where you will only kill yourself or an equally willing participant.

Yep, pt91, CFIing, ferry, large DZ, towing gliders, etc.

 

[Everskyward]

You bet. It's not hard to fly, if you are trained properly and fly regularly.

Are you flying people?

 

[Henning]

Are you flying people?

Do they allow that in a 1900 flying 135?

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Freight/utility/CFI/**** and Blood/pipeline/banner tow.... Stuff where you will only kill yourself or an equally willing participant.

Hours are one thing, but turbine experience, only freight sounds like you would get that

 

[Henning]

Hours are one thing, but turbine experience, only freight sounds like you would get that

Ag can get you turbine time as well, but by the time you are getting into a turbine Ag plane, you could be getting into an airliner only getting paid more so less likely to go airline.

 

[Everskyward]

Do they allow that in a 1900 flying 135?

You can get the autopilot in lieu of SIC opsspec for a 200 and a 350 so I'm guessing you can get it for a 1900 but not sure. You might be limited to 9 pax, though.

 

[olasek]

Silly?, but if everyone requires that kind of experience, how does a wannabe pilot ever get it?

Clearly not everyone is so picky.
Take my friend.
He arrived from Poland with his PPL at Hillsboro Aviation, just outside of Portland, OR. He spent there 2 years getting his FAA credentials - PPL,IFR, Commercial, Multi, CFI,CFII. In his second year there he was an instructor teaching many Chinese students who go through this school. He finally had to leave US since his work permit expired. At this moment he is flying as F/O on a brand new Boeing 737-800 belonging to Travel Service - Czech Republic based tour operator. His current total time in his logbook - 1197 hrs. He had less than 1000 hrs when he got hired and no turbine experience - some Piper Seminole, Senecas were the most he ever flew. Oh, I almost forgot, he got his sea plane rating in Alaska.

 

[James331]

Hours are one thing, but turbine experience, only freight sounds like you would get that

Pt 91 turbine stuff will help.

DZ ops will get you turbine time, and a ton of takeoffs landings and flying at full gross, CG changes, and near VNE decents.

I'm guessing our 1900 guy works for Ameriflight

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Are you flying people?

Do they allow that in a 1900 flying 135?

Boxes. Not sure if you can fly a 135 1900 pax single pilot. I imagine if you could, Great Lakes would with their new 135 deal. So I imagine no, but it's just a stretched 200

 

[Henning]

Boxes. Not sure if you can fly a 135 1900 pax single pilot. I imagine if you could, Great Lakes would with their new 135 deal. So I imagine no, but it's just a stretched 200

Are you flying the D or the tube model?

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Are you flying the D or the tube model?

C model, type rating is the same, so I doubt there is much difference in what can be single pilot in one vs the other

 

[Henning]

C model, type rating is the same, so I doubt there is much difference in what can be single pilot in one vs the other

Sorry, the question wasn't relevant to that, just wondering if the Ds were flying boxes yet. How close do you run the C to gross? Would the extra volume be usable to you?

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Sorry, the question wasn't relevant to that, just wondering if the Ds were flying boxes yet. How close do you run the C to gross? Would the extra volume be usable to you?

Not sure the D can carry as much as a C. SFAR 41C vs Commuter category 23 have slightly different performance requirements. I would be surprised to see D models flying boxes ever due to that. But you generally bulk well before grossing out