Paying a PPL (again)

[Captain]

I'm pretty sure I know the answer, but I'll ask anyway.

Would there be a problem paying a PPL with flight time for a non flying related job? Like a kid mows my grass and instead of giving him money I pay hime with flight time in my plane.

Or could a flying club give its president, say 5 hours a month, as compensation for being the president?

 

[BillTIZ]

Bartering, goods for services is a form of compensation.
But you are compensating mowing grass with flight time. So you are not paying him to fly, but to mow grass. A private pilot, with certain approved exceptions, cannot be compensated for flying, which you are not doing.
You would be better off to pay the kid in cash, and let him use the cash to buy fuel.
Then there is less doubt.

 

[poadeleted20]

No problem at all, as long as you put no strings on the flying, e.g., letting the club president fly free as long as he flies it to the shop for maintenance, or letting the kid fly free as long as he flies you to someplace you want to go. In the cases you describe, the flying time is compensation, but not for providing pilot services, and thus is legal,

 

[jpower]

Legal. A family friend got paid flying time for working on hangers all summer.

 

[hopmedic]

Just out of curiosity, since there have been a number of this type of thread, and you're already taught me that it is a grey area as far as interpretation, what would the FAA do in a case where you do something that seems innocent, but they interpret it as being compensated for flying?

 

[poadeleted20]

...what would the FAA do in a case where you do something that seems innocent, but they interpret it as being compensated for flying?

They take your license for a month or two. Two quotations for you -- "Seems, Madam? I know not 'seems'", and "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." By Administrator v. Merrell, they are permitted to advance their own interpretation of their own rules as part of an enforcement action (so long as it does not conflict with an unretracted previous interpretation). So any time you as a PP or less are considering something involving money, think very carefully about whether or not the FAA has said it's OK to do that, and be very wary of breaking new ground, because where the FAA is concerned, a quote which does not apply is "It is easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

 

[hopmedic]

They take your license for a month or two. Two quotations for you -- "Seems, Madam? I know not 'seems'", and "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." By Administrator v. Merrell, they are permitted to advance their own interpretation of their own rules as part of an enforcement action (so long as it does not conflict with an unretracted previous interpretation). So any time you as a PP or less are considering something involving money, think very carefully about whether or not the FAA has said it's OK to do that, and be very wary of breaking new ground, because where the FAA is concerned, a quote which does not apply is "It is easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

Thanks. And funny you should mention that quote. The first time I ever heard that quote was about 10 years ago. I went to my first EAA chapter meeting, after having just joined EAA. I stood and introduced myself when invited to do so, and said that my wife said I could join EAA, but I coulnd't take lessons yet. The president responded with, "It's easier to get forgiveness than permisson."

 

[AggieMike88]

If in lieu of someone paying me directly for the flight, can I direct them to provide a donation to an aviation charity such as Angel/Grace Flight, VAC, and PnP?

 

[ja_user]

If in lieu of someone paying me directly for the flight, can I direct them to provide a donation to an aviation charity such as Angel/Grace Flight, VAC, and PnP?

Private pilots have to have 500 hours to do donation/raffle type of flights. (The charity gets money, and you are donating the flight for their benefit.)

 

[AggieMike88]

Private pilots have to have 500 hours to do donation/raffle type of flights. (The charity gets money, and you are donating the flight for their benefit.)

Thanks for that. But the intention was for the passenger(s) to donate their funds to the charity to show their appreciation for the flight, not me donating flying time.

Along that line, what if I was to accept their cash, but immediately turn it over to the charity?

 

[bflynn]

Thanks for that. But the intention was for the passenger(s) to donate their funds to the charity to show their appreciation for the flight, not me donating flying time.

Along that line, what if I was to accept their cash, but immediately turn it over to the charity?

If you take money for flying, then you've taken money. The fact that you immediately disposed of the money is irrelevant.

 

[poadeleted20]

If in lieu of someone paying me directly for the flight, can I direct them to provide a donation to an aviation charity such as Angel/Grace Flight, VAC, and PnP?

If that donation is a condition of the flight, then you've created a quid pro quo, and it's now a 91.146 flight with all the rules and paperwork appertaining thereto. If you ask rather than direct, and the charity is not involved in the process in any way other than getting a surprise donation, and you give them the free ride regardless of whether they donate or not ("Glad you enjoyed the flight. If you really want to thank me, just give a donation to XYZ."), then it should be fine.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you take money for flying, then you've taken money. The fact that you immediately disposed of the money is irrelevant.

I agree. When doing charity flights, it would be most imprudent to let the money (even a check made out to the charity) touch your hands, even if it's all done IAW 91.146.

 

[AggieMike88]

you give them the free ride regardless of whether they donate or not ("Glad you enjoyed the flight. If you really want to thank me, just give a donation to XYZ."), then it should be fine.

That is what I was thinking.

The donation was never a condition of the flight. More than once I've taken a non-flier for an out-and-back ride, and they offered some cash at the end. I've politely refused of course. But now, I'll have a card or two ready to hand to them that has the charities' information.

 

[Captain]

Just make the check payable to "Children's & Adults Social Health" fund...you can just put C.A.S.H.

 

[poadeleted20]

That is what I was thinking.

The donation was never a condition of the flight. More than once I've taken a non-flier for an out-and-back ride, and they offered some cash at the end. I've politely refused of course. But now, I'll have a card or two ready to hand to them that has the charities' information.

There ya go!