Pattern or Departure turn

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ncc1701e

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ncc1701e
I've read in the Airplane Flying Handbook that the turn into or departing from the pattern should be made past the departure end of the runway within three hundred feet of the pattern altitude. Does that mean both conditions have to be satisfied even in the case of a very long runway? In other words with a long runway a typical GA airplane will be airborne, reach pattern altitude, and will have to level off and wait until past the departure end of the runway before making any turns?
 
If it is a controlled field (which most long runway fields are), just coordinate with the tower as to when you start your crosswind. At uncontrolled, I'd be inclined to fly to the end of the runway to avoid risk of conflicting with NORDO traffic.
 
I'm not sure I follow. If you are departing the pattern and leaving the area why would you have to level off?
 
Hmmm....perhaps its just the local procedures I've become accustomed to, believing it to be standard, but 'round these parts, One gets to 500' (maybe 700' agl in some cases) and initiates a turn out of the area.
 
The AFH procedure is default, and yes, you have it right.

Local procedures, especially for noise abatement, will very often differ. For instance, E16 requires levelling off at TPA before the crosswind turn. There is a big sign at each end of the runway that says "no crosswind turns below 1300 MSL." They also want departures to climb to 2000 MSL before any turns.

There are a few airports where you really can't fly past the end of the runway due to nearby conflicting airspace. An example is KHWD, where flying past the end of 28L will put you into KOAK Class C while you're still talking to Hayward Tower. It's also a 600 MSL TPA because it's so close to the KOAK conga line -- read the A/FD.
 
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At our busy airport, tower likes us to turn as soon as practicable. They're nice about it, however, and usually start with "Please"
 
wabower said:
At our busy airport, tower likes us to turn as soon as practicable. They're nice about it, however, and usually start with "Please"
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Once at RDU the tower asked me to turn to a heading which literally would result in me buzzing the tower. I asked for confirmation and then buzzed the tower. Could see the controllers waving to me :rofl:
 
dell30rb said:
Once at RDU the tower asked me to turn to a heading which literally would result in me buzzing the tower. I asked for confirmation and then buzzed the tower. Could see the controllers waving to me :rofl:
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Hahaha, I think they do that on purpose. They told me cleared on course, and when I continued on runway heading after acknowledging they repeated it. I guess I added my own 'at pilot's discretion'.
 
ncc1701e said:
I've read in the Airplane Flying Handbook that the turn into or departing from the pattern should be made past the departure end of the runway within three hundred feet of the pattern altitude. Does that mean both conditions have to be satisfied even in the case of a very long runway? In other words with a long runway a typical GA airplane will be airborne, reach pattern altitude, and will have to level off and wait until past the departure end of the runway before making any turns?
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I think the intent is that we should make the turn at no less than 300 feet below pattern altitude, not that we have to stop climbing.
 
MAKG1 said:
Local procedures, especially for noise abatement, will very often differ. For instance, E16 requires levelling off at TPA before the crosswind turn. There is a big sign at each end of the runway that says "no crosswind turns below 1300 MSL." They also want departures to climb to 2000 MSL before any turns.
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Unless you're staying in the pattern, I don't see how "no crosswind turns below 1300 MSL" translates into levelling off at TPA.
 
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Departing out of SJT to the west, I frequently get "runway heading to departure end, cleared on course." No mention of altitude, they just don't want folks overflying the hangars to the west. No noise complaints that I'm aware of but obviously something causes them to issue that. I don't get that instruction departing N,S or E - only west (over the hangars).

Unless I get other instructions from an operating ATC authority, my standard is runway heading to 500 AGL and turn out.
 
MAKG1 said:
TPA is 1300 MSL (1000 AGL) at E16. Well, 1281 MSL, but close enough.
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I was pointing out that the sign doesn't say anything about levelling off if you're leaving the pattern. However, I overlooked your next sentence, where departures are covered separately, so in the words of the immortal Roseanne Roseannadanna. "Never mind!" :redface:
 
The AIM pretty clearly states that if you're remaining in the pattern, you should (unless otherwise instructed/published) make your turn to crosswind 300 below TPA or after passing the departure end of the runway, whichever comes last.
 
Ron Levy said:
The AIM pretty clearly states that if you're remaining in the pattern, you should (unless otherwise instructed/published) make your turn to crosswind 300 below TPA or after passing the departure end of the runway, whichever comes last.
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Even if at KSAW?
 
Departing HND on Rwy 17L, departing to the south, I asked tower for a left turn out reaching 500ft AGL. They denied the request, left turn at departure end was their comment. I could have turned before reaching the tower.

On departure at mid field, I called, "I'm above TPA now, can I turn left?"
I heard a chuckle in the reply, "Left turn approved."
 
MAKG1 said:
There is no published exception for KHWD in the AIM or A/FD, but if you follow that advice on 28L, you're going to bust Class C.
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As I said -- what's in the AIM is the general recommendation. As always, you gotta be smarter than a box'o'rocks and not do something generally recommended when there's a regulation in the way of doing it in that specific time/place.
 
when i'm towing i usually start the first turn at 3-500 AGL depending on our position wrt the airport. When i'm being towed i just follow the towpilot :D
 
Ron Levy said:
As I said -- what's in the AIM is the general recommendation. As always, you gotta be smarter than a box'o'rocks and not do something generally recommended when there's a regulation in the way of doing it in that specific time/place.
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Not a specific regulation -- there is SOME space between the threshold and the boundary of Class C at KHWD. But it would take a pretty steep turn to pull it off, especially in a fast aircraft. So, it really falls in the "not a good idea" category, not the "forbidden" category.
 
The whole idea behind the AFH procedure is so you'll be at TPA by the time you're ready to turn downwind-the leg in which you are most likely to climb into somebody and have a midair.
 
GCA319 said:
The whole idea behind the AFH procedure is so you'll be at TPA by the time you're ready to turn downwind-the leg in which you are most likely to climb into somebody and have a midair.
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Of course, don't blindly follow this procedure. Different situations call for different actions.
 
tonycondon said:
when i'm towing i usually start the first turn at 3-500 AGL depending on our position wrt the airport. When i'm being towed i just follow the towpilot :D
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When I'm towing, we normally hit 200ft AGL just before departure end. 3000ft from start of takeoff. I'll wait to about 500ft before starting the crosswind turn, a little farther if it's a planned "pattern tow".

When I'm on the trailing "hang on" end of the rope, I go where it leads.
If I don't like where it's leading me, I'll call the TP on the radio, or debrief TP on the ground. He may have seen a conflict I did not see.
 
GCA319 said:
The whole idea behind the AFH procedure is so you'll be at TPA by the time you're ready to turn downwind-the leg in which you are most likely to climb into somebody and have a midair.
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Right, so if you pass through the TPA halfway to the end of the runway you have already departed the pattern and none of this applies.
 
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