Past Marijuana Use

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djbouch

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Dear Aviation Community,

I am a student pilot and I am having some trouble getting a medical certificate. I am sixteen years old, and I just graduated high school. I am trying to get as much of a head start on my career as possible, and I am hoping that my behavior won't hinder my ability to do this.

In 2007 I used marijuana four times, and once in January 2008. I have always wanted to be a pilot; I took ground school when I was fourteen, and had a few lessons until my money ran out. I stopped flying until a few months ago when I decided that I could now afford to get lessons. When I decided to start flying again I made a commitment to stop my social smoking. January 8th was the last time I smoked and I will never do it again. I feel very guilty about my behavior and I am always ashamed to tell people, not to mention the minor trouble I have had getting my 3rd class medical. The doctor told me that I passed everything but he had to defer my case because I had indicated use of marijuana on my form. I got a letter from the Medical Certification Division of the FAA, and it asked for more information. I replied in May declaring my frequency of use, effective dates of abstinence, that I never purchased the drug, encountered legal problems, or needed medical treatment.

My big concern right now is that I am about two months away from my solo and I read on the web that it takes 4-6 months to process my letter. Do you have any idea if this is the case, or if there is any way to speed up the process? I am hoping that my naiive behavior won't ground me for two years. Is this a possibility? Could my past use of marijuana affect my goal of having a career as a pilot?

I understand that drug use must stay far away from aviation and I fully regret my decision to engage in this behavior. I am concerned that it may be impossible for me to assure the FAA that I won't do drugs again. Thank you for your knowledge and insight.

Sincerely

Daniel B
 
Yes, it can take that long.

You have two things in your favor but barely. First, you stopped using. Second, you were truthful on the form.

Now, there are a few things against you. The fact that you used at all, it was within two years of your medical application and the FAA now knows about it.

You stand a huge chance of being denied a medical certificate. If they do issue it, it may be a Special Issuance (SI) with a requirement to return for reevaluation in one year.

If you want to help your case, you can go find the best psychiatrist/psychologist around you and seek a mental health evaluation. Ask that doctor to help you prove to the FAA there is no dependency issue and there is no effect on your abilities for having used the drug in the past.

It may not help but it dang sure won't hurt. You've set the stage and now you have some hurdles to jump through.

You're not the first to post this question. Had you asked before having applied, the recommendation would be to first keep yourself clean.

The second would be to not apply for a medical. If you want to fly, go for a sport pilot ticket. With that, you can at least start flying. You then let two years pass so you can honestly state you've not used in the previous two years.

Now, for the worst part of the reality... You've admitted use and it's now a part of a permanent FAA file available to any and all future employers in aviation. I don't believe the medical information area is available but an aviation employer may well ask for a signed release. That disclosure may keep you from being hired for some time, if not forever. I hate to say that but it's a sad reality for such a choice you've made.

You've made the bed and now you have to lie in it and let time and performance in the rest of your life overwrite that seemingly small issue. The fact is, it's not so small. It shows a lack of good judgment. If you've read anything about Aeronautical Decision Making (ADM) you'll know that it is all about using good judgment.

There's hope but only if you're willing to truly bust your ass and work for it. It won't be an easy road given your actions and disclosure. Now, you have to prove you know how stupid you were in your choices, what you've learned from it and how much you are willing to work for something more for your life.

Last, now that you've admitted it here, be prepared. Some are going to slam you hard for it. Some may do it out of superiority. Some will do it because it scares the hell out of them that they may have to share the sky with someone who used such judgment.

Keep a thick skin for the harsh words but a humble heart for the constructive criticism. There are a great many folks here who truly care and will want you to succeed. Listen to their wisdom and take it to heart.

Daniel, I wish you the very best.
 
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One of our esteemed contributors here has advised (and I'm paraphrasing here, so these are my words, not his) NEVER to seek mental health attention until advised to do so by the the FAA or your AME or personal physician. Apparently lots of folks end up with a "record" they'd be better off not having.

So if the FAA responds by asking you to get evaluated, you must. But I don't think it would be a good idea to "seek treatment" until they do - after all, you just certified you hadn't needed to seek treatment.

I may be off base here, and I'm sure that Dr. Bruce or other medical pros will chime in and correct me, but I'd wait until you get an authoritative opinion before going farther on this.

Like Kenny, I applaud your honesty, and I wish you the best of luck. You may have to delay your plans, but you shouldn't have to abandon them. If you haven't already come clean with your folks, I recommend you do so.

-Tim
 
djb-you will get a letter requiring a psych evaluation and some verification of abstinence. Call 405-954-4821 serially, on three separate days, be polite, cordial (you will apparently get noplace) but it will boot you case up to the senior lay examiner, who will put it on the federal psychiatrist's desk.

I would't do anything more until you have nudged the system. You case will be unusual- you have 'fessed up, and though I think it unlikely, you may get no more than a title 9 warning. More likely you get the demand for a psych eval letter from a shrink, and then three serial one year issuances with a psych followup each time.

Hang in there, it this is REALLY REALLY what you want to do it will happen.
 
Another opportunity to correct me. I believe djb can continue with his training, even though he can't solo, and progress through instrument, commercial, and multiengine work (all dual), and then once he has a medical, he can go fly all the required solo stuff and pile on the checkrides. I seem to recall several young folks did this - started training at 15 or so and then soloing and taking the private, instrument, commercial, and multiengine rides as soon as they were old enough.
 
DJB,
With the FAA it is like the old saying, its better to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission. Do not EVER admit to anything on your medical form again OK (With the exception of driving related stuff that they can trace). Smoking pot is like having a beer. I would say that most of the pilots I know, including the military guys, have done some pot usage so you are in good company. I would seek the advise of an aviation medical service (like the one in Colorado Springs) before I went any further with the feds. I always joke with my wife that the day I retire (And no longer subject to random drug testing), I am gonna roll a fatty that will set of smoke alarms throughout the entire nieghborhood. I am joking ofd course, but get some advice from an expert.
Frank
 
F.Baum said:
DJB,
With the FAA it is like the old saying, its better to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission. Do not EVER admit to anything on your medical form again OK (With the exception of driving related stuff that they can trace).
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This is probably the worst advise you could get. I cannot codone what Frank is telling you to do. In fact he is telling you to break the law.

Follow what Dr. Bruce has said. Do not lie on your medical. The feds are looking into stuff and have been prosecuting people. You are doing the right thing. That goes a long way in my book and shows me that you are the type of pilot I would want to have up in the air with me.
 
smigaldi said:
This is probably the worst advise you could get. I cannot codone what Frank is telling you to do. In fact he is telling you to break the law.

Follow what Dr. Bruce has said. Do not lie on your medical. The feds are looking into stuff and have been prosecuting people. You are doing the right thing. That goes a long way in my book and shows me that you are the type of pilot I would want to have up in the air with me.
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When I first read the post by Frank, I almost said something but didn't; a failure on my part. Scott's right. You don't lie to the feds, particularly if you value a role in aviation and more so if you value your liberty. Read the following... three sources on the same story...

http://www.aopa.org/flightplanning/articles/2008/080325pilot.html

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/03/22/pilot_sentenced_for_lying_about_health/

http://www.capecodtoday.com/blogs/i...ot-sentenced-for-lying-to-investigato?blog=80
 
smigaldi said:
This is probably the worst advise you could get. I cannot codone what Frank is telling you to do. In fact he is telling you to break the law.

Not even close to being true. The FAA form is so vague its not even funny. If I go to a rock concert and breath passive smoke does that constitute marajuana usage ? The FAA is looking for habitual problems and they couldnt care a less about someone in the OP's situation. I can guarantee the FAA has bigger fish to fry than people who forget to disclose something on their medicals.
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KennyFlys said:
When I first read the post by Frank, I almost said something but didn't; a failure on my part. Scott's right. You don't lie to the feds, particularly if you value a role in aviation and more so if you value your liberty. Read the following... three sources on the same story...


Ken, with all respect you are giving alot of advise that you apparently are not qualified to give. First, this insulin case was overturned on appeal, and had this not resulted in an incident we would have never heard of it. Second, I know two pilots who forgot to report bypass operations and both of them never went to jail and are still flying. One flys a G-V and the other a 747. Lastly, if the OP were to deal with a regional office instead of Ok City, he would have his case resolved in days instead of months. The only thing I would not withhold would be a driving offence involving drugs or alcohol. This is the one that will getcha.
Best wishes,
Frank
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F.Baum said:
KennyFlys said:
When I first read the post by Frank, I almost said something but didn't; a failure on my part. Scott's right. You don't lie to the feds, particularly if you value a role in aviation and more so if you value your liberty. Read the following... three sources on the same story...


Ken, with all respect you are giving alot of advise that you apparently are not qualified to give. First, this insulin case was overturned on appeal, and had this not resulted in an incident we would have never heard of it. Second, I know two pilots who forgot to report bypass operations and both of them never went to jail and are still flying. One flys a G-V and the other a 747. Lastly, if the OP were to deal with a regional office instead of Ok City, he would have his case resolved in days instead of months. The only thing I would not withhold would be a driving offence involving drugs or alcohol. This is the one that will getcha.
Best wishes,
Frank
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Overturned or not, it was a lie on the form. This cannot be disputed.

Sorry man, but lying on the application is not the way to go. Regardless of what you think my qualifications are, were I hiring and I discover you blatantly lied on an application... you would be terminated.

The kid screwed up and now he's trying to make it right. Will he do it to the satisfaction of the aeromedical branch? That remains to be seen. But, coming clean on the issues goes a lot further than lying and getting caught later on.

On this issue, you and I shall forever disagree.
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F.Baum said:
KennyFlys said:
When I first read the post by Frank, I almost said something but didn't; a failure on my part. Scott's right. You don't lie to the feds, particularly if you value a role in aviation and more so if you value your liberty. Read the following... three sources on the same story...


Ken, with all respect you are giving alot of advise that you apparently are not qualified to give. First, this insulin case was overturned on appeal, and had this not resulted in an incident we would have never heard of it. Second, I know two pilots who forgot to report bypass operations and both of them never went to jail and are still flying. One flys a G-V and the other a 747. Lastly, if the OP were to deal with a regional office instead of Ok City, he would have his case resolved in days instead of months. The only thing I would not withhold would be a driving offence involving drugs or alcohol. This is the one that will getcha.
Best wishes,
Frank
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To me, its not really about "Will I get caught," its "Did I commit a crime" and furthermore "Am I purjoring myself when I sign this form?"

Sure - there's no way the FAA is going to know whether or not you were/are a pothead or even an alcoholic (probably not many other drugs as well) unless something happens, but that doesn't make it OK to just lie about it.

Of course, this is my opinion on how I'd handle things. Not judging anyone here.
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Sorry man, but lying on the application is not the way to go. Regardless of what you think my qualifications are, were I hiring and I discover you blatantly lied on an application... you would be terminated.


Thanks for the response and let me clarify, I dont advocate lying either. I will say this much; before I would answer this question the FAA should define usage. If you get carried away at a party one nite and snort a line and never do it again does that make you a cocain user ? Also we should remember that pot is legal in many states (To a certain degree) so the OP probably didnt break any laws.
The OP has gotten alot of sympathy here and thats good. I dont want him to feel bad about what he has done and I strongly encorage him to get the advise of an expert.
One last thing to remember is that the insulin case you brought up is a safety mater, this isnt. If we keep our posts apples to apples it will be easier on future threads =).
Fly safe
FB
 
I believe medical marijuana is now legal in California. Heard a guy on the radio the other day talking about get a 'scrip for it for migraines.
 
EdFred said:
I believe medical marijuana is now legal in California. Heard a guy on the radio the other day talking about get a 'scrip for it for migraines.
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That is true, but Frank was referring to recreational use.

Lots of stuff is available medically including cocaine.
 
He did say "to a certain degree" and in Ann Arbor it's only (or was) a $5 misdemeanor when they had Hash Bash.
 
Well, I better report my traffic tickets. Those weren't legal either.

Edit: What if you used it where it WAS legal (outside the states).
 
EdFred said:
Well, I better report my traffic tickets. Those weren't legal either.

Edit: What if you used it where it WAS legal (outside the states).
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If those were for DUIs then yes you are supposed to report them. Otherwise your signature constitutes a release for the FAA to retrieve your driving records and they'll get that info. But I do not think they really care about speeding tickets and the like unless, as it says on the form, it was related to DUI.
 
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Uh, linking to a local file will not show up for the rest of us.
 
Well, diabetics were not able to fly until recently. I'm sure you can make the same happen for yourself. I myself am going for the sport pilot route for now because I don't wanna be grounded from all piloting should the medical get denied for being a diabetic.
 
rubber314chicken said:
Well, diabetics were not able to fly until recently. I'm sure you can make the same happen for yourself. I myself am going for the sport pilot route for now because I don't wanna be grounded from all piloting should the medical get denied for being a diabetic.
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I'm an insulin pumpin' type I and have had my medical since 2000. Is it always easy? No, but tell me what worthwhile is.
 
F.Baum said:
KennyFlys said:
When I first read the post by Frank, I almost said something but didn't; a failure on my part. Scott's right. You don't lie to the feds, particularly if you value a role in aviation and more so if you value your liberty. Read the following... three sources on the same story...


Ken, with all respect you are giving alot of advise that you apparently are not qualified to give. First, this insulin case was overturned on appeal, and had this not resulted in an incident we would have never heard of it. Second, I know two pilots who forgot to report bypass operations and both of them never went to jail and are still flying. One flys a G-V and the other a 747. Lastly, if the OP were to deal with a regional office instead of Ok City, he would have his case resolved in days instead of months. The only thing I would not withhold would be a driving offence involving drugs or alcohol. This is the one that will getcha.
Best wishes,
Frank
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You sir are most obs_enely mistaken. It's easy to recertify after a CABG operation.

If you deal with a regional office like Chicago, very many would never fly again. Too broad a brush. I hardly think you have any basis to know anything about the regions vs. OKC. Who do you deal with at OKC? Got names?

Do you even know what's on the psych panel for past marijuana abuse? Wanna spell out for everyone here? Betch ya got NO IDEA.

As for detecting drug use and lying, it's MUCH easier than you think for a sharp AME to figure this one out. Particularly cocaine.

Lots of huff and puff and lousy advice.
By the way, "welcome" to POA. Sigh.

Senior AME, CFI/ ATP
member of several governmental affairs panels
Medical Columnist T&T
300 medicals per year- 70% of them "complex".
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kevin47881 said:
I'm an insulin pumpin' type I and have had my medical since 2000. Is it always easy? No, but tell me what worthwhile is.
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I'm also type I and have an insulin pump. But I'm still getting a sport pilots for now.
 
bbchien said:
F.Baum said:
You sir are most obs_enely mistaken. It's easy to recertify after a CABG operation.


Senior AME, CFI/ ATP
member of several governmental affairs panels
Medical Columnist T&T
300 medicals per year- 70% of them "complex".
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Thanks for the resonse. You stike me as a person who tries to make things more complicated just to foster a need for your services. It IS easy to recertify, but both of these pilots failed to report their procedures in the first place.(And no, I dont advocate this). I recently went through a situation of my own and got to know a couple of the doctors at the NW regional office. They handled my case very quickly and told me that had this gone through Ok city it would have sat on someones desk for a month before someone could look at it. The people at ALPA Aeromedical echoed this sentiment. In talking to the FAA doctors it was very interesting to find out what they felt was and wasnt important. There is alot of stuff, that if it is not a safety of flight issue, they would rather not know about.
If I could respectfully request two things, first, please dont throw your qualifications around because there are plenty of pilots here and on other lists who make you look like an amature. And second, if you want to continue this discusion lets do it off line so others dont have to be subject to your condicending tone.
Thanks
Frank
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bbchien said:
Lots of huff and puff and lousy advice.
By the way, "welcome" to POA. Sigh.
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We know who is right an who is not Bruce. You are most definitely not a poser.

Frank: What you may not realize on this board is that many of us actually know each other. We are not just faceless Internet chatters. We do get together and see each other, fly with each other, and use the professional services of each other. It is what makes this place so fun. Plus there are also people that I respect on here. This really is a back porch kinda place or a real fly in community.
 
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Frank,

You many not relize it but what you just did made you loose credibility with all the regulars on this board. Dr. Bruce is one of the most respected memebers of this community and crossing swords with him in an antognistic way is a bad move if you truely want to be a part of our community and not just a 2 sec poser and troll. Dr. Bruce has helped many people on this board with their medicals and his credientals are certianlly well above yours.

Get over yourself or get off the board.

Missa
 
Frank,
You're new here, so you may not be aware of Dr. Chien's standing in the community, both here and at AOPA. Perhaps that's why he cited some of his qualifications, so you could evaluate them appropriately. He is well known to many of us here, both from his postings, his personal assistance, and his presence at gatherings.

You are new here. In your own words: "I am one of those flaming/trolling jerks from Usenet and I am surprised they let me in here." In your first post in this thread, you said "get some advice from an expert." I submit that Dr. Chien has shown himself to be an expert.
 
gprellwitz said:
Frank,
You are new here. In your own words: "I am one of those flaming/trolling jerks from Usenet and I am surprised they let me in here." In your first post in this thread, you said "get some advice from an expert." I submit that Dr. Chien has shown himself to be an expert.
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Hum, I missed that... he's inches away from finding out what the MC does to those flaming/trolling jerks who don't change their stripes when they come to this board.
 
All,

Be careful that, in dealing with trolls/jerks/flamers who come here, that you do not fight fire with fire, lest the MC also set its sights on you.

That is all.
Greebo
Management Council
 
I believe this thread has gotten a little too personal. Closing it for review.
 
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