Paint Problems

[AdamZ]

Some of you may recall that in the spring I posted regarding a friend who had a nightmare getting his Lance out of the paint shop. They told him 4-5 weeks and as it turns out he bought it in in late February and didn't get it back till June.
The paint shop owner gave excuse after excuse after excuse. Finally he got it back. He went to this particular paint shop because it promised a quick turnaround and beat his other quote by about $3,000.00 ( ya get what ya pay for)
As soon as he got back the Lance it went in for either a 100 hr or an annual and the local A&P pointed out that he got a crap paint job. He probably should have bought the A&P out to pick the plane up with him but quite frankly he just wanted to get the plane back after 5 months in the paint shop he thought he'd never see it again.
On first look the paint job looks good ( especially if you saw the plane before) Upon closer inspection, there are areas that are clearly a slop job IMHO. Some of the paint surfaces on the Fuselage are painted but rough and look like they have a mat finish rather than glossy which I believe it should be. there is paint spatter on the front Pax window, He did not paint the fuselage well or completely between where it meets the flaps. Shouldn't he have removed the flaps? He did not paint inside the wheel wells or well doors. Within days of getting the plane back a big chunk of paint about the size of a Cell phone cracked and peeled off under the cowling. The painter said its b/c the cowling was old and he can't guarantee the paint on an old cowling. Is this BS? The inspection plates were re-secured with the wrong size screws ( since corrected by the local A&P)
The paint shop was supposed to strip the plane and repaint. they claimed there were three layers of paint and that striping them is what took so long. Its hard to tell if the paint was totally stripped or stripped at all but we suspect it was not. Why? because for example on the back pax/cargo door there is a pockmark in the paint indicating something under the outer layer. ( He intends on reweighing the plane and this should give us a better Idea) The plane was reweighed by an IA hired by the paint shop which when the numbers are reviewed show that my friend has gained 379 lbs of useful load. Can this be so? The new W&B places the CG aft and out of the envelope. I always thought the Lance had a forward CG.
The sporty two tone stripe that was applied is an inch above the wing on the Pax side and actually meets the wing so much as to have the bottom section cut of on the pilots side. I addition there is buildup of paint not sanded down where the body paint meets the spot that tape was apparently applied to apply or protect the stripe.
He also did not remove any antennas but only painted up to the silicone sealer. To me that's like painting a wall and only painting up to the light switch cover but not removing the cover. I recognize that I could be wrong about this since I have NO experience in this arena.
The painter keeps dodging phone calls and I will put on my lawyer hat and sue the painter if he dosen't make things right for my friend but I don't want to take such action if the painter should not be expected to do the things I have mentioned. My friend had expected the plane to look like it rolled of the assembly line ( on the outside only of course) With the exception of any dings and blemishes in the aluminum skin. Were his expectations reasonable, unreasonable or otherwise. I hear a bad paint job can lead to corrosion problems later on. Any input would be most appreciated so we can decide what action to take.

Note I may post this in both POA and AOPA so of course just reply once, we just want to get as much info as possible to help my friend with his decision. Thanks everyone!!!!

 

[Skip Miller]

Note I may post this in both POA and AOPA so of course just reply once, we just want to get as much info as possible to help my friend with his decision. Thanks everyone!!!!

The first question is: what did the work order specify?

-Skip

 

[AdamZ]

Excellent question skip! Believe me I laid into my friend for this. There was no work order. I know I know UGH! Just an agreement to strip and paint the plane for X dollars. It amazes me what otherwise intelligent people will do or not do.

 

[Richard]

Oh, gee. Patent defects and possible latent defects. Is the most current W&B properly entered into the log? If so, even if the W&B is found in error, because it shows it's out of the envelope is the a/c even airworthy?

You mentioned wrong size screws to replace the inspection plates. Did this oversize the hole or crossthread the previous tap? Were the fasteners too long and perhaps penetrated into something? No one but the shop knows just how many different sized screws were used until they found the right size and they're not saying.

Your bud should be thinking of liens and compensation for defective workmanship and/or materials. The lien because you want to catch the paintshop before they decide to close and move on. For all you friend knows, he may have paid for the moving costs of a shady shop. Time is of the essence.

 

[Anthony]

Adam. I'll bet your friend is just sick. I am always wary of the "low bidder" if its A LOT lower than the others. Its easy for us to Monday morning quarterback, but he should have had a detailed work order with a step by step process, paint spec, finish, etc. As far as the W&B issues go, that is scary.

 

[bbchien]

Some of you may recall that in the spring I posted regarding a friend who had a nightmare getting his Lance out of the paint shop. They told him 4-5 weeks and as it turns out he bought it in in late February and didn't get it back till June.
The paint shop owner gave excuse after excuse after excuse. Finally he got it back. He went to this particular paint shop because it promised a quick turnaround and beat his other quote by about $3,000.00 ( ya get what ya pay for)
As soon as he got back the Lance it went in for either a 100 hr or an annual and the local A&P pointed out that he got a crap paint job. He probably should have bought the A&P out to pick the plane up with him but quite frankly he just wanted to get the plane back after 5 months in the paint shop he thought he'd never see it again.
On first look the paint job looks good ( especially if you saw the plane before) Upon closer inspection, there are areas that are clearly a slop job IMHO. Some of the paint surfaces on the Fuselage are painted but rough and look like they have a mat finish rather than glossy which I believe it should be. there is paint spatter on the front Pax window, He did not paint the fuselage well or completely between where it meets the flaps. Shouldn't he have removed the flaps? He did not paint inside the wheel wells or well doors. Within days of getting the plane back a big chunk of paint about the size of a Cell phone cracked and peeled off under the cowling. The painter said its b/c the cowling was old and he can't guarantee the paint on an old cowling. Is this BS? The inspection plates were re-secured with the wrong size screws ( since corrected by the local A&P)
The paint shop was supposed to strip the plane and repaint. they claimed there were three layers of paint and that striping them is what took so long. Its hard to tell if the paint was totally stripped or stripped at all but we suspect it was not. Why? because for example on the back pax/cargo door there is a pockmark in the paint indicating something under the outer layer. ( He intends on reweighing the plane and this should give us a better Idea) The plane was reweighed by an IA hired by the paint shop which when the numbers are reviewed show that my friend has gained 379 lbs of useful load. Can this be so? The new W&B places the CG aft and out of the envelope. I always thought the Lance had a forward CG.
The sporty two tone stripe that was applied is an inch above the wing on the Pax side and actually meets the wing so much as to have the bottom section cut of on the pilots side. I addition there is buildup of paint not sanded down where the body paint meets the spot that tape was apparently applied to apply or protect the stripe.
He also did not remove any antennas but only painted up to the silicone sealer. To me that's like painting a wall and only painting up to the light switch cover but not removing the cover. I recognize that I could be wrong about this since I have NO experience in this arena.
The painter keeps dodging phone calls and I will put on my lawyer hat and sue the painter if he dosen't make things right for my friend but I don't want to take such action if the painter should not be expected to do the things I have mentioned. My friend had expected the plane to look like it rolled of the assembly line ( on the outside only of course) With the exception of any dings and blemishes in the aluminum skin. Were his expectations reasonable, unreasonable or otherwise. I hear a bad paint job can lead to corrosion problems later on. Any input would be most appreciated so we can decide what action to take.

Note I may post this in both POA and AOPA so of course just reply once, we just want to get as much info as possible to help my friend with his decision. Thanks everyone!!!!

$3,000 below for a paint job? Your friend got what he paid for!

This is a Lawyer's approach to quality. Sorry, Adam, I mean it. If he wanted a top notch job- stripped bare, well masked, antennas off, Hardware out, covers off, cowling done separately and off the bird, he needed to specify. Then the hours estimate would have gone up, up, up. Kinda like the shops that repaint your car for $99!

So, you threaten and sue the guy. It raises the cost for every one else. Sure, go ahead and be a nice guy and sue the operator.

Call up Oxford in Oxford, ME. They quote about $6,600 for your garden variety PA28. And that includes everything on the list.

There oughta be a law---NOT! If you are a cheapskate, you get cheap. You should see the professional shop's painting agreements- what to be done, the list of items is more than a page long. IMO if there was no written agreement with everything specified, he got a paint job. He sure did.

Now if the guy went to Lancaster PA to another famous shop, specified the level of work, and didn't get it- they'd be fixing it before anyone got a chance to see the aircraft.

You cannot do 300 hours of work for $3,000 and provide materials, a safe environment for employees, etc. You can do it for 50 hours, and no way can you mask, remove, strip....not even a Ford Escort for that.

The perspective of the attorney is the contract. Your friend didn't get a contract, he went cheap. So he got a paint job. There it is. What a lot of owners lack is the perspective of actual work and what it takes. You can't paint an aircraft in 50 hours unless all you're doing is masking and spraying. It's a ridiculous prospect. And your post/perspective also reflects a lack of the "actual what it takes" perspective. The expectations are WAYYY out of line.

What I'm saying is that I would be inclined to be an expert witness for your opposition.

Sigh.

 

[SCCutler]

Heaven forbid common sense and sound business practices intervene.

This lawyer says: If that case come in my door, I'd listen carefully, offer a hot cup of coffee while we discussed, and politely decline representation (no charge for the visit or the coffee).

Plenty of counsel would take it, knowing they could try to shake down the shop and at least spend the retainer before declaring it a lost cause. Not good business.

Complicated work being done. No written estimate or agreement for scope of work and price? He hired paint. They sprayed paint.

(With credits to the Doc) Sigh.

 

[AdamZ]

$3,000 below for a paint job? Your friend got what he paid for!

This is a Lawyer's approach to quality. Sorry, Adam, I mean it. ...

Whoa Bruce. With all due respect I posted here to try and get some information to help advise my friend! If I wanted to take what you call the "Lawyers approach to quality" I wouldn't have posted and would have just sued the guy. That is not my style!! I am trying to educate myself and I clearly state that in my post. First please re read my post. I said " ya get what ya pay for" I also said "I recognize that I could be wrong about this since I have NO experience in this arena."
Bruce I respect you immensely but I sense a blanket prejudice against ALL Attorneys. Which troubles me. PLEASE PLEASE reread the following from my post:

"The painter keeps dodging phone calls and I will put on my lawyer hat and sue the painter if he dosen't make things right for my friend but I don't want to take such action if the painter should not be expected to do the things I have mentioned. ...Any input would be most appreciated so we can decide what action to take. ... just want to get as much info as possible to help my friend with his decision.

In one sense, you are correct that "This is a lawyer's approach to quality" I am trying to educate myself and gather facts from a group of people whom I respect and whom I think may have some answers BEFORE I make a decision how to advise my friend. Yes it was not the brightest move for him to turn over the plane and $$ with out a written estimate, contract or work order. I have said that several times. Then again I think I would get criticized as a lawyer gumming up the works, if I insisted that he get a "written" contract. I can just hear it now " Oh you lawyers have to complicate things a handshake means nothing to you anymore" ( Had I known about the transaction in advance I would have certainly suggested he get a written work order) Bruce my perspective may seem way out of line to you because I said I don't know what is appropriate in the industry. I'm asking for advice and information. That's what these boards are for.
Look I don't want to divert this thread. I'm just looking for advice. The way it appears to me he should not get a Lexus for the price of a Chevy. But just because he paid less dosen't mean he should get crap job. (By the way he paid about $8,000.00 the other quote was about $11,000. not $3000 vs. $6000.) Just b/c he paid less is it ok that there is paint spray on the window or that he used the wrong size screws on the inspection plates or didn't strip the entire plane like he said he would? Let me ask you, if you paid $2.50 per gallon of 100LL would it be ok to have contaminates in the fuel because the other FBOs sell it for $3.29 per gallon. My secretary paid $80.00 for a prescription at on of the local shopping clubs either SAMs club or Costco I think. The same script same mfg was $133.00 at a local chain pharmacy. Should she expect that her medicine won't be as effective or contain contain. contaminates because she bought it for less? Not being in a financial position to own a plane I just don't have experince with such things. Now I understand that it may not customary to remove antennas or flaps unless it is specifically requested. I didn't know if it was possible to "buff" out rough spots on paint or if it needed to be repainted. Its all part of the information gathering process for me.

 

[bbchien]

Whoa Bruce. With all due respect I posted here to try and get some information to help advise my friend! If I wanted to take what you call the "Lawyers approach to quality" I wouldn't have posted and would have just sued the guy. That is not my style!! I am trying to educate myself and I clearly state that in my post. First please re read my post. I said " ya get what ya pay for" I also said "I recognize that I could be wrong about this since I have NO experience in this arena."
Bruce I respect you immensely but I sense a blanket prejudice against ALL Attorneys. Which troubles me. PLEASE PLEASE reread the following from my post:


In one sense, you are correct that "This is a lawyer's approach to quality" I am trying to educate myself and gather facts from a group of people whom I respect and whom I think may have some answers BEFORE I make a decision how to advise my friend. Yes it was not the brightest move for him to turn over the plane and $$ with out a written estimate, contract or work order. I have said that several times. Then again I think I would get criticized as a lawyer gumming up the works, if I insisted that he get a "written" contract. I can just hear it now " Oh you lawyers have to complicate things a handshake means nothing to you anymore" ( Had I known about the transaction in advance I would have certainly suggested he get a written work order) Bruce my perspective may seem way out of line to you because I said I don't know what is appropriate in the industry. I'm asking for advice and information. That's what these boards are for.
Look I don't want to divert this thread. I'm just looking for advice. The way it appears to me he should not get a Lexus for the price of a Chevy. But just because he paid less dosen't mean he should get crap job. (By the way he paid about $8,000.00 the other quote was about $11,000. not $3000 vs. $6000.) Just b/c he paid less is it ok that there is paint spray on the window or that he used the wrong size screws on the inspection plates or didn't strip the entire plane like he said he would? Let me ask you, if you paid $2.50 per gallon of 100LL would it be ok to have contaminates in the fuel because the other FBOs sell it for $3.29 per gallon. My secretary paid $80.00 for a prescription at on of the local shopping clubs either SAMs club or Costco I think. The same script same mfg was $133.00 at a local chain pharmacy. Should she expect that her medicine won't be as effective or contain contain. contaminates because she bought it for less? Not being in a financial position to own a plane I just don't have experince with such things. Now I understand that it may not customary to remove antennas or flaps unless it is specifically requested. I didn't know if it was possible to "buff" out rough spots on paint or if it needed to be repainted. Its all part of the information gathering process for me.

OK. Then my advice is, to go and watch a bit of the preparation for a paint job at a good shop, and conclude that there is no "standard of care" in this industry. Conclude that to do a proper job would require about 300 hours of labor. Conclude that to do a job that looks good, short of the $99 car paint job which always looks like a $99 job, that there's no way to get that kind of job for much less than 300 hrs x$15/hr (paid the guy $10 an hour, really CHEAP) plus materials, plus the spray booth, plus comp, liability, plus....

My comment is really made in the frustration that just about every Attorney and Most Doctors have NO SENSE of how much LABOR is involved here. I personally don't think anyone could be found that I would trust to do my paint can be had at $22 hr net ($15.00/hr paid) to do this. Right there that's $6600 in labor alone.

When politicians say, when was the last time Senator, that you actually did any WORK ( e.g, labor!) the answer is more commonly than not, "not ever" for the senator went to college, law school and into practice. The Doctor, too.

[/rant off]