Owning your own airplane for flight training?

HatTrickHero11 said:
How often do planes need to be serviced?
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Fuel, tire air, and engine oil habe to be checked every flight. Other maintenance must be performed on a regular schedule, as often as every 25 hours depending on the aircraft and how it's used. A complete and intrusive examination of the aircraft is required every year (typically a couple of thousand dollars worth of work).

Do single engine aircraft have to get overhauls on the engine? If so, how often? And how much does that cost?
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Typically every 1800-2000 hours for the aircraft about which we're speaking, and the cost will be on the order of $17,000.

I also want a motorcycle as my vehicle of choice so maybe I will have to get that to get my mind preoccupied haha.
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A much more reasonable choice for someone of your apparent income level. You can use it to get back and forth to the airport where you rent a plane.
 
HatTrickHero11 said:
Well my Dad is an optometrist, and he needs to get so many hours of continuing education each year to maintain his license to practice. So I could fly the plane to those places so he doesn't have to go to the airport constantly and can get me some hours
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As you'll learn, it's not legal for you to be your Dad's aeronautical chauffeur at least until you get your Commercial Pilot certificate.
 
Ron Levy said:
As you'll learn, it's not legal for you to be your Dad's aeronautical chauffeur at least until you get your Commercial Pilot certificate.
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I understand that I need a commercial license to be paid to fly, but I wouldn't be paid to fly. I would just fly
 
Ron Levy said:
I've owned four, and he's right. And it's two engines if you buy a twin (and yes, I've owned one of them).
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You'd have to really bollux the deal to buy a Cherokee or Skyhawk that takes its own worth in maintenance after the first year. You gentlemen are correct about one thing though. It is a very good idea to have the sort of financial wherewithal to perform major repairs. You just never know when they'll come up. You can ameliorate the risk to some degree with a good pre-buy inspection. Usually, if the engine, which is the biggest ticket item, is on the way out, it will give some warning. Most engines don't just die out of a clear blue sky, pardon the metaphor.

It is true that there are guys, despite all this, who need huge repairs out the gate. I remember a fellow who frequents the Purple Board who bought himself a Skyhawk under the tutelage of the resident mechanics and other self-appointed experts. The damn thing died in the middle of his first major cross country. He gets it fixed remotely, and finally recovers it months later. Thing doesn't have the oomph he's used to. A bit of checking later, two of the new jugs are bad out of the box. New jugs ordered (though he has the pleasure of paying for all the installation/deinstallation) but months later they're in. Then, on the maintenance flight he has a really rough landing and a prop strike.

However, the real message here is poor people shouldn't own airplanes. Hate to put it that way, but it's true. I bought one both to defray training costs and because I knew I wanted one, and I've never for an instant regretted the decision. Jesse is actually being quite wise.

But if you have the wherewithal, it is so worth it.
 
Don't buy it if you can't afford to replace the engine tomorrow, is my line. There's wiggle room in that general platitude, but it's my standard line for potential purchasers.

I'm an LLC co-owner, and the LLC owns the aircraft. Never "partners". There's significant reasons to do that if you have any assets. Co-ownership essentially cuts your fixed costs by the number of co-owners, and I like to say "minus one".

The scenario can (and does) come up where something happens, the aircraft needs $, and one (or hopefully not more than one) co-owner can't instantly cough up the cash.

So being realistic/fatalistic, your co-ownership divides costs by the number of co-owners, minus one.

Five very active pilots will book a single aircraft to the point where renting starts to look good again, so never more than five. Unless some are generally inactive and then you'd worry about their currency.

Our bird sits a little more than it should. Four would be perfect. We have three.
 
jesse said:
If you buy a $20,000 airplane, and couldn't afford the very next day to turn around and put $15,000 into the airplane, you can't afford to own it. Just my opinion.
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Wow. If we thought like that we'd be walking instead of flying multiple airplanes for the past 35 years.

We are still flying multiple airplanes and don't spend that much.

Deb


1948 Luscombe 8E
"Lester"
 
HatTrickHero11 said:
I understand that I need a commercial license to be paid to fly, but I wouldn't be paid to fly. I would just fly
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The FAA considers the loggable flight time itself to be compensation if someone else is paying for it in return for you taking them where they want to go, when they want to go. As I said, you'll learn these and many other rules during your training. All I'm trying to say is that you can't legally collect money from people for flying them to places they want to go to get "free" flying for yourself, so don't count on that as a contributor to the costs of owning and flying an airplane.
 
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And that's why many people who bought airplanes are walking around instead of flying the airplane they bought, while it sits on the tiedown with a problem they can't afford to fix.

N1347B said:
Wow. If we thought like that we'd be walking instead of flying multiple airplanes for the past 35 years.

We are still flying multiple airplanes and don't spend that much.

Deb


1948 Luscombe 8E
"Lester"
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Ron Levy said:
The FAA considers the loggable flight time itself to be compensation if someone else is paying for it in return for you taking them where they want to go, when they want to go. As I said, you'll learn these and many other rules during your training. All I'm trying to say is that you can't legally collect money from people for flying them to places they want to go to get "free" flying for yourself, so don't count on that as a contributor to the costs of owning and flying an airplane.
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I am not being reimbursed for anything. We will fly there, he will do his stuff, the next day we will fly out. (an example of a typical day) I would just fly from one airport, land, the down, stay the night, and leave the next day. The FAA would have an issue for this?
 
denverpilot said:
Don't buy it if you can't afford to replace the engine tomorrow, is my line. There's wiggle room in that general platitude, but it's my standard line for potential purchasers.

I'm an LLC co-owner, and the LLC owns the aircraft. Never "partners". There's significant reasons to do that if you have any assets. Co-ownership essentially cuts your fixed costs by the number of co-owners, and I like to say "minus one".

The scenario can (and does) come up where something happens, the aircraft needs $, and one (or hopefully not more than one) co-owner can't instantly cough up the cash.

So being realistic/fatalistic, your co-ownership divides costs by the number of co-owners, minus one.

Five very active pilots will book a single aircraft to the point where renting starts to look good again, so never more than five. Unless some are generally inactive and then you'd worry about their currency.

Our bird sits a little more than it should. Four would be perfect. We have three.
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First off, what's an LLC? And I agree, if I can only solely buy an airplane and that's all I have money for, I have no business going in to buy at all.
 
wabower said:
And that's why many people who bought airplanes are walking around instead of flying the airplane they bought, while it sits on the tiedown with a problem they can't afford to fix.
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I guess that's where we are spoiled. Luscombes are such simple airplanes. I haven't spent $15,000 in ten years and a1000 hrs of flying mine. Can say the same for the Old Man's as well. Personally, I think folks buy more airplane than they can afford and often need. Think simple.

Apparently, our experiences with the four airplanes we have right now seem to be the exception. Could also be that I have one fine IA, too.

Deb



1948 Luscombe 8E
"Lester"
 
HatTrickHero11 said:
I am not being reimbursed for anything. We will fly there, he will do his stuff, the next day we will fly out. (an example of a typical day) I would just fly from one airport, land, the down, stay the night, and leave the next day. The FAA would have an issue for this?
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Not as long as you pay for it out of your own pocket. But having your Dad pay for it, not you, seems to have been the idea. Unless, of course, you would have made that flight to that place on that day even if your Dad wasn't involved, in which case your Dad can chip in half the cost.

Like I said, there's a lot you'll be learning about the rules and regs as part of your training.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not as long as you pay for it out of your own pocket. But having your Dad pay for it, not you, seems to have been the idea. Unless, of course, you would have made that flight to that place on that day even if your Dad wasn't involved, in which case your Dad can chip in half the cost.

Like I said, there's a lot you'll be learning about the rules and regs as part of your training.
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Well the intention was so he didn't have to deal with the major airports and travel to get to the nearest one that is 40 minutes away, when a small airport is 10 away.
But I do understand that I can't be paid to fly him. I guess I got a lot more to learn
 
HatTrickHero11 said:
Well the intention was so he didn't have to deal with the major airports and travel to get to the nearest one that is 40 minutes away, when a small airport is 10 away.
But I do understand that I can't be paid to fly him. I guess I got a lot more to learn
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Hey, you haven't even had lesson 1 yet -- don't worry about it. You just keep saving your money until you have enough to start training, find a good school/instructor, and then get ready to learn.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not as long as you pay for it out of your own pocket. But having your Dad pay for it, not you, seems to have been the idea. Unless, of course, you would have made that flight to that place on that day even if your Dad wasn't involved, in which case your Dad can chip in half the cost.

Like I said, there's a lot you'll be learning about the rules and regs as part of your training.
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Hee hee. My Dad paid for 40+ hours of my flying. I'd be willing to talk to the FAA about that deal.
 
Ron Levy said:
$8000 a year total ownership cost? Well, I suppose you can do that if you don't fly it very much, keep it outside, and do most of the maintenance yourself, but if you're working on your PPL, you're going to want to fly more than that.
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I don't know.. I don't think that is unreasonable.

The C152 I fly - the owner spends about 2.5k average per year on maintenance. The annual inspection itself usually runs 1 grand with a few squawks (this year it was nose strut leak, brake master cylinder bracket) and 1000 in additional stuff throughout the year. 400 bucks for some part in the electric flap system, and 600 for a radio repair and rebuilt directional gyro was last year. Add in $500 for oil changes and landing lights.

Plane was purchased for 22k cash.

It burns something like 5gph at 95 knots and runs great on premium mogas (STC).

Tie down outside is $40 a month and insurance for him was $500 a year. (for a new PPL double that)

Now drop a couple grand on fuel and go fly a lot.

Other than oil changes and engine overhaul reserve that you should be saving up, flying a lot costs only fuel.

The 152 is actually more fuel efficient than my V8 jeep. I get about 18smpg highway - the plane 18.9nmpg at 8000 feet - 100kts - 65%power
 
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steingar said:
However, the real message here is poor people shouldn't own airplanes. Hate to put it that way, but it's true. I bought one both to defray training costs and because I knew I wanted one, and I've never for an instant regretted the decision. Jesse is actually being quite wise.

But if you have the wherewithal, it is so worth it.
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Right, but I'm guessing you were not in this situation.
HatTrickHero11 said:
The only reason I think 120 an hour is expensive is because I'm only 20! That's a lot of money for someone who doesn't have a career going and is only in college haha.
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Probably the only way it's going to work for HatTrickHero11 is if his parents are willing and able to back him, but it's not logical for him to be doing it on his own.
 
Probably the only way it's going to work for HatTrickHero11 is if his parents are willing and able to back him, but it's not logical for him to be doing it on his own.[/QUOTE]

Thats for sure. I don't really think they are too fond of the idea of me flying. So all this will have to wait till I'm a couple years older, when I'm moved out and have some cash on hand. For the mean time, I will go to my local airport, talk with some people, get to know the big boys, and see if they will take me up and try flying the plane.
 
jesse said:
Nope. Because I don't think I can afford it. But I've worked with plenty of people who have bought airplanes and needed to put substantial amounts of money into it the next week. You need to be accepting of the possibility and able to handle it before you purchase.

No matter how well the pre-buy is, or how well you researched, it can happen. People need to be aware of that.
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Amen brother, Amen!
 
murphey said:
Let's look at the lastest "claim" on AOPA website (which was mentioned in another thread here) at 72 hrs as the average. Assume rental of a C172 is $125/hr

72 hours * 125 = $9000
CFI @ $35/hr for 40 hrs = $1400
Checkride $300
Written $150
Books & such $100
Another 10 hours with the CFI for ground = $350

Total $11,300
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The OP doesn't mention where in California, but depending on location, the price of rentals varies a HUGE amount.
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Yeah, no joke. I'm nowhere near CA, but here's my case: Cherokee 140, I'm paying block time at $88/hr wet. Instructor is, I think, $35 in the air and less on the ground. And I'm doing my knowledge test using self-study and online test prep.

Rental 72 hours @ $88 = 6336
CFI 40 hours @ 35 = 1400
Checkride $300
Written $150
Online test prep, study, etc $100

That's still under $9K using the same number of hours, even with a medical AND a nice set of David Clark head clamps (H10-13.4, $200 very slightly used on eBay). And there's no way I'll have anywhere near 72 hours before I get my ticket, so figure closer to $6K or so, all in.

Never take someone else's cost estimates at face value. You have to use your own situation and your own requirements, and figure it out for yourself. If I believed numbers like AOPA's I wouldn't have started training.
 
Well I am facing these choices and did a search and found this older thread. Really good info here. Had anyone's experiences and opinions changed after these last few months?

I am just doing a lot of research right now to get ready to learn sometimes next year, and it will depend on many variables of when to start. Seeing all the opinions on this thread, I think I might be better served going the renting route.
 
Also in the market for owning a plane for my instrument rating. I just finished my private in a Tomahawk, but cannot do instrument training in it currently. The other rental options is an Arrow at $125/hr and the CFII at $65/hr. I'm thinking a 172 with GPS and my father who is an A&P might be the way to go.
 
Rayden said:
Well I am facing these choices and did a search and found this older thread. Really good info here. Had anyone's experiences and opinions changed after these last few months?

I am just doing a lot of research right now to get ready to learn sometimes next year, and it will depend on many variables of when to start. Seeing all the opinions on this thread, I think I might be better served going the renting route.
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Since buying my own plane (which I purchased during my initial training) I can feed a $100 bill into a shredder without flinching. It's not that it's not a lot of money to me, it's that I've lost sensation in whatever nerves detect that.

That said: I fly on my schedule with the only issue being maintenance due to my own flying and not someone else who rents the same plane as me. It's always where I expect it to be. I know my plane very very well as well as every maintenance decision.
 
denverpilot said:
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I'm an LLC co-owner, and the LLC owns the aircraft. Never "partners". There's significant reasons to do that if you have any assets.
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There are possible legal downsides to a single purpose LLC.

There are also possible pitfalls if the partner/ LLC member's name isn't on the aircraft title.

Co-ownership essentially cuts your fixed costs by the number of co-owners, and I like to say "minus one".
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I agree 100%! Co-ownership is the best way to go for most pilots who are not really wealthy.

And even if the pilot has unlimited money, he or she may not have unlimited time. Aircraft ownership takes a lot of time, it's nice to be able to split that up.
 
Less time, no

Better, MAYBE.

Depends on your goals after you guy the plane.

If you end up flying a ton of hours, it will be better, but I really mean ALOT of hours, like part time job kind of hours

If you buy a low TT, TSMO plane for the right price, learn to fly in it and flip it, you can come out ahead, but you need to know how to buy and sell. Many folks will pay Corvette prices for a Buick, try to sell it for Mercedes prices and then blame the market on why it doesnt sell :goofy:

If you are going to work a lease back with it, but not knowing the industry I wouldnt recommend that for you.

If you were going for your CPL and flipping the plane (even for a slight loss) you would most certainly end up on top.
 
That link is about flight department companies, a totally different issue.
FAA isn't a threat to a few guys owning a little airplane.


JimNtexas said:
There are possible legal downsides to a single purpose LLC.

There are also possible pitfalls if the partner/ LLC member's name isn't on the aircraft title.



I agree 100%! Co-ownership is the best way to go for most pilots who are not really wealthy.

And even if the pilot has unlimited money, he or she may not have unlimited time. Aircraft ownership takes a lot of time, it's nice to be able to split that up.
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