Owners of planes with missing logs?

[AA5Bman]

Anyone own a plane with missing logs? General comments?

The obvious answer is do a thorough pre-buy inspection, and check that the wings are from the right plane - that kind of thing, right? Buy it right because it's not worth as much. Make sure there's no damage evident. Check the firewall and all mods/337s.

If the logs were lost for the first three years of the plane's life and the plane is 35 years old, would that bother you too bad if everything else pointed in the right direction?

 

[ScottM]

If the logs were lost for the first three years of the plane's life and the plane is 35 years old, would that bother you too bad if everything else pointed in the right direction?

Nope I would be fine with that.

 

[John Collins]

With all the airplanes to buy in this market, I would rule out those that have missing airframe logs. I don't worry about missing engine or prop logs, as that can be easily adjusted in the price.

 

[poadeleted20]

With all the airplanes to buy in this market, I would rule out those that have missing airframe logs. I don't worry about missing engine or prop logs, as that can be easily adjusted in the price.

Only if you're sure all AD's are complied with and all mods or repairs are documented somewhere, even if "somewhere" is in a late log entry or 337 by the IA inspecting/approving the undocumented work done during the missing years. In addition, where life-limited parts are involved (like the wing spars on AA-5x's, limited to 12,000/12,500 hours), you need proof of the time in service on those parts or they're junk. I know of one Tiger which sat for a year and a half because it was discovered on the first annual after purchase that one wing was undocumented (replaced without proof of time in service on the replacement wing -- not even the N-number of the donee plane). The shop was never able to determine the source of the wing, and eventually, it had to be replaced to the tune of like $15,000 before the airplane was legal to fly again. The owner had to eat that cost. Not so easy to "adjust" stuff like that if you don't find it on pre-purchase.

 

[EppyGA]

This could be helpful to a degree.

http://aircraft.faa.gov/e.gov/ND/airrecordsND.asp

 

[RMCN172RG]

This could be helpful to a degree.

http://aircraft.faa.gov/e.gov/ND/airrecordsND.asp

I pulled mine before the first annual just to verify against the logs.

 

[wabower]

Which three years? The first three or the last three? or some in the middle?

 

[AuntPeggy]

If the logs were lost for the first three years of the plane's life and the plane is 35 years old, would that bother you too bad if everything else pointed in the right direction?

Which three years? The first three or the last three? or some in the middle?

He answered that.

 

[AA5Bman]

It was the first three years.

The plane is a 1980 model year, and the years 1980 through 1983 were lost. The logs for those years, however, have been "recreated" in May of 1983 from existing paperwork still (at that time) on file with the FBO who was taking care of the plane.

The recreation carries this comment: "New logs constructed from existing records of this aircraft at owner request because originals lost", then is dated and signed by an IA and his certification number is listed. All other logs are fine.

 

[wabower]

Some readers have a limited attention span and use our age as an excuse. In this case I wouldn't get particularly worked up about it from a risk of ownership standpoint, would disclose it and make a small adjustment for an appraisal.

He answered that.

 

[John Collins]

Only if you're sure all AD's are complied with and all mods or repairs are documented somewhere, even if "somewhere" is in a late log entry or 337 by the IA inspecting/approving the undocumented work done during the missing years. In addition, where life-limited parts are involved (like the wing spars on AA-5x's, limited to 12,000/12,500 hours), you need proof of the time in service on those parts or they're junk. I know of one Tiger which sat for a year and a half because it was discovered on the first annual after purchase that one wing was undocumented (replaced without proof of time in service on the replacement wing -- not even the N-number of the donee plane). The shop was never able to determine the source of the wing, and eventually, it had to be replaced to the tune of like $15,000 before the airplane was legal to fly again. The owner had to eat that cost. Not so easy to "adjust" stuff like that if you don't find it on pre-purchase.

I have no disagreement with your post, but it doesn't seem to relate to mine which was only intended to point out that airframe logs can be more important than engine or prop logs.

 

[AA5Bman]

Some readers have a limited attention span and use our age as an excuse. In this case I wouldn't get particularly worked up about it from a risk of ownership standpoint, would disclose it and make a small adjustment for an appraisal.

No doubt about that as engine logs and prop logs come and go with the engines and props. Unfortunately, the logs in question are airframe logs...

 

[poadeleted20]

I have no disagreement with your post, but it doesn't seem to relate to mine which was only intended to point out that airframe logs can be more important than engine or prop logs.

Well, if your point is that it's easier to replace an engine or prop without logs than an airframe without logs, your point would be valid. But there are limited life and AD issues for engines and props, too, and absent documentation of time in service and AD compliance, if there are such issues, the aircraft on which they are mounted is just as grounded as when the airframe logs are missing.

 

[AA5Bman]

Speaking of which...

Having owned a Tiger (see name), I'm somewhat familiar with the life-limited issue, especially as far as missing logbooks go. I've asked around and posted a few questions to this point, but is anyone aware of life-limited parts on a cessna 182 airframe??

As I said, I've asked around (and asked some people who would know), and as far as anyone knows, there are no life-limited parts on a 182 (Q model in this case). This doesn't necessarily prove anything, but it's worth asking again: anyone aware of life-limited parts on 182s? Anyone know someone I could ask who is a definitive expert on the subject?

 

[gprellwitz]

Speaking of which...

Having owned a Tiger (see name), I'm somewhat familiar with the life-limited issue, especially as far as missing logbooks go. I've asked around and posted a few questions to this point, but is anyone aware of life-limited parts on a cessna 182 airframe??

As I said, I've asked around (and asked some people who would know), and as far as anyone knows, there are no life-limited parts on a 182 (Q model in this case). This doesn't necessarily prove anything, but it's worth asking again: anyone aware of life-limited parts on 182s? Anyone know someone I could ask who is a definitive expert on the subject?

I'm not aware of life-limited parts on the Cessna 182 Skylane, but I just fly them; I'm not an owner. How about John Frank or Mike Busch as experts? They're both at the Cessna Pilot's Association, http://www.cessna.org/.