Overflying class D

[flyingcheesehead]

Again, to clarify, it is the responsibility of a radar controller to coordinate the transition of a surface area with a nonapproach control tower. It is not the responsibility of an ARTCC controller to coordinate the transition of Class C airspace with an approach control facility.

Right - But in the case of the Class C, I think you would agree that it's the Center controller's responsibility to either hand you off to approach or terminate services well before you reach the boundaries of the class C itself.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

MKE approach has long been known for poor ATC service.

No disagreement there, unfortunately.

Supposedly, the FAA plans on moving Madison approach in with Milwaukee or Chicago in the next 5 years or so, building a new tower on the east side of MSN but providing radar services remotely - Sounds like they're trying to consolidate things like they did with NorCal and SoCal. Any word on what the future of GRB approach is going to be?

 

[roncachamp]

Right - But in the case of the Class C, I think you would agree that it's the Center controller's responsibility to either hand you off to approach or terminate services well before you reach the boundaries of the class C itself.

Absolutely.

 

[roncachamp]

Supposedly, the FAA plans on moving Madison approach in with Milwaukee or Chicago in the next 5 years or so, building a new tower on the east side of MSN but providing radar services remotely - Sounds like they're trying to consolidate things like they did with NorCal and SoCal. Any word on what the future of GRB approach is going to be?

Unofficially, the Northeast Wisconsin ATC Service Degradation Plan has Green Bay approach moving to MKE and an FAA contract tower at KGRB.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I believe the problem lies in the distinction between "approach control" and "center". Center controllers control the airspace at a higher altitude, generally, than the surface areas of C or D go up to. If you are receiving VFR advisories from center, you are usually at a higher altitude and could not penetrate either C or D space without significantly altering your altitude, causing the center to either coordinate a handoff to the approach control in that area, or drop your services and bid you farewell. If you are receiving VFR advisories at an altitude at which you could penetrate C or D airspace, you are already talking to the appropriate approach controllers.

Bryon,

While that is true out in your area, there are plenty of places out here where Center handles the low airspace because there are no nearby TRACONs, while heading East from here there are TRACONs everywhere. It's a pretty stark difference - If I head East around the south end of the lake, I'll hit Madison, Rockford, Chicago, South Bend, Fort Wayne, Toledo, Mansfield, Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, Allentown, and Philadelphia Approaches on the way to Wings, and rarely talk to Center. If I head due west at 4000 feet, Madison will hand me off to Chicago Center, they'll hand me to Minneapolis Center, and I think the next Approach I'd be talking to is Sioux Falls, SD.

Another example: In Wisconsin we have three TRACONs: Madison, Milwaukee, and Green Bay. We do have chunks of airspace belonging to Minneapolis and Chicago TRACONs as well.

We have 10 towered airports aside from the primary Class C's mentioned above. MKE approach handles OSH, ENW, MWC, and UES. GRB approach handles ATW. RFD Approach handles JVL. However, the other four are the ones that this scenario would apply to: CWA, EAU, and LSE are all handled by Minneapolis Center. CMY is a bit of a special case - Volk Approach (military) takes care of them when they're open, but that is a fairly limited amount of time. Chicago Center takes care of them the rest of the time.

So, in those cases, Center would be required to handle class D transitions.


JVL, ENW, UES, MWC, OSH, ATW, CWA, EAU, LSE, CMY

 

[roncachamp]

We have 10 towered airports aside from the primary Class C's mentioned above. MKE approach handles OSH, ENW, MWC, and UES. GRB approach handles ATW. RFD Approach handles JVL. However, the other four are the ones that this scenario would apply to: CWA, EAU, and LSE are all handled by Chicago Center. CMY is a bit of a special case - Volk Approach (military) takes care of them when they're open, but that is a fairly limited amount of time. Chicago Center takes care of them the rest of the time.

Minneapolis Center, actually.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Minneapolis Center, actually.

Right you are. I must have crossed the wires while I was typing that because I had CMY in the forefront of my mind. Fixed.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Bryon,

While that is true out in your area, there are plenty of places out here where Center handles the low airspace because there are no nearby TRACONs, while heading East from here there are TRACONs everywhere. It's a pretty stark difference - If I head East around the south end of the lake, I'll hit Madison, Rockford, Chicago, South Bend, Fort Wayne, Toledo, Mansfield, Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, Allentown, and Philadelphia Approaches on the way to Wings, and rarely talk to Center. If I head due west at 4000 feet, Madison will hand me off to Chicago Center, they'll hand me to Minneapolis Center, and I think the next Approach I'd be talking to is Sioux Falls, SD.

Another example: In Wisconsin we have three TRACONs: Madison, Milwaukee, and Green Bay. We do have chunks of airspace belonging to Minneapolis and Chicago TRACONs as well.

We have 10 towered airports aside from the primary Class C's mentioned above. MKE approach handles OSH, ENW, MWC, and UES. GRB approach handles ATW. RFD Approach handles JVL. However, the other four are the ones that this scenario would apply to: CWA, EAU, and LSE are all handled by Minneapolis Center. CMY is a bit of a special case - Volk Approach (military) takes care of them when they're open, but that is a fairly limited amount of time. Chicago Center takes care of them the rest of the time.

So, in those cases, Center would be required to handle class D transitions.


JVL, ENW, UES, MWC, OSH, ATW, CWA, EAU, LSE, CMY

Sorry, showing my mostly easterner off. Only flew west of Ohio a few times, so limited experience.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron, do you have access to the specific question that Granby submitted? That hasn't been posted to this thread AFaIK and this might be why many of us can't see where you're coming from. I didn't find anything in the FAA's response that said anything about deviating.

Not Granby's actual letter, but the response pretty clearly spells out the questions.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Ron, do you have access to the specific question that Granby submitted? That hasn't been posted to this thread AFaIK and this might be why many of us can't see where you're coming from. I didn't find anything in the FAA's response that said anything about deviating.

Not Granby's actual letter, but the response pretty clearly spells out the questions.

 

[gismo]

Not Granby's actual letter, but the response pretty clearly spells out the questions.

Ron, I've read and re-read the FAA response (link in post #41) and like most of the rest here cannot see any support for the notion that the original question or the response was limited to, or even related to a pilot altering his flight path and as a result, entering SUA. All I can see is the FAA clearly stating that the requirement to maintain two way comm can only be met by communicating with the specific facility which has jurisdiction over the SUA involved.

Can you point out or quote the portion of the Granby response which supports your belief that the situation being addressed involved the pilot changing his course or altitude and then entering SUA?

 

[roncachamp]

Ron, I've read and re-read the FAA response (link in post #41) and like most of the rest here cannot see any support for the notion that the original question or the response was limited to, or even related to a pilot altering his flight path and as a result, entering SUA. All I can see is the FAA clearly stating that the requirement to maintain two way comm can only be met by communicating with the specific facility which has jurisdiction over the SUA involved.

Can you point out or quote the portion of the Granby response which supports your belief that the situation being addressed involved the pilot changing his course or altitude and then entering SUA?

SUA is Special Use Airspace; Restricted Areas, MOAs, etc. I don't recall it being mentioned in the Granby letter.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron, I've read and re-read the FAA response (link in post #41) and like most of the rest here cannot see any support for the notion that the original question or the response was limited to, or even related to a pilot altering his flight path

The two scenarios presented could not arise other than via the pilot altering course or altitude. As I explained above, it's just not possible for the pilot in those scenarios to enter C-space in the situations described without altering course or altitude unless the controller isn't following the book. For example, there is a lot of buffer between the limit of Center space and the beginning of C-space (both vertically and horizontally), so to enter C-space, the pilot would have long ago left Center airspace, requiring Center to terminate radar service to that aircraft. IOW, the scenario itself is from a practical standpoint oxymoronic -- it simply cannot arise without someone doing something wrong.

and as a result, entering SUA.

I thought we were talking about C/D-space, not Special Use Airspace (R-/W-/P-areas and MOA's).

 

[gismo]

SUA is Special Use Airspace; Restricted Areas, MOAs, etc. I don't recall it being mentioned in the Granby letter.

Per the info in one or more of my GPSs I'm used to calling Class B and C SUA. Probably not technically correct FAA speak wise but I think you know what I meant.

 

[roncachamp]

I thought we were talking about C/D-space, not Special Use Airspace (R-/W-/P-areas and MOA's).

Actually, when the subject is the Granby letter we're talking only about Class C airspace.

 

[gismo]

The two scenarios presented could not arise other than via the pilot altering course or altitude. As I explained above, it's just not possible for the pilot in those scenarios to enter C-space in the situations described without altering course or altitude unless the controller isn't following the book. For example, there is a lot of buffer between the limit of Center space and the beginning of C-space (both vertically and horizontally), so to enter C-space, the pilot would have long ago left Center airspace, requiring Center to terminate radar service to that aircraft. IOW, the scenario itself is from a practical standpoint oxymoronic -- it simply cannot arise without someone doing something wrong.

I guess it's the "controller isn't following the book" part that's not obvious to me. Aside from the FAA weasel words about "circumstances that mitigate the violation" I don't seen anything that limits this statement to situations where the pilot has changed course or altitude:

"The receipt of traffic advisories from a Center or any other ATC facility does not relieve the pilot of the responsibilities of section 91.3."

Now I can see the logic behind your take on the Granby letter but I could swear that you have reminded me more than once that the FAA rules and logic are often at odds.

I thought we were talking about C/D-space, not Special Use Airspace (R-/W-/P-areas and MOA's).

My bad. I was too lazy to type Class BCD and substituted SUA hoping the difference wouldn't be a concern.

 

[poadeleted20]

I guess it's the "controller isn't following the book" part that's not obvious to me. Aside from the FAA weasel words about "circumstances that mitigate the violation" I don't seen anything that limits this statement to situations where the pilot has changed course or altitude:

It's simply impossible for an airplane in Center space to hit C-space without going through TRACON space first. So either it must either have changed course/altitude or the Center controller dropped the ball a long way back.

As for D-space, if the adjacent airspace is controlled by Center rather than a TRACON, then the basic rule about controllers coordinating transit of surface-based areas applies.

 

[Sac Arrow]

So how does the pilot know if he's communicating with the correct ATC facilty during a Class D transit or arrival?

 

[roncachamp]

So how does the pilot know if he's communicating with the correct ATC facilty during a Class D transit or arrival?

The correct ATC facility for an arrival is the control tower, the frequency is on the sectional, A/FD, approach plate, etc. The correct ATC facility for transition could be the tower or the radar facility that provides approach control services, see the A/FD or an approach plate.

 

[gismo]

The correct ATC facility for an arrival is the control tower, the frequency is on the sectional, A/FD, approach plate, etc. The correct ATC facility for transition could be the tower or the radar facility that provides approach control services, see the A/FD or an approach plate.

Or you could ask whoever you're currently talking to.

 

[Sac Arrow]

The correct ATC facility for an arrival is the control tower, the frequency is on the sectional, A/FD, approach plate, etc. The correct ATC facility for transition could be the tower or the radar facility that provides approach control services, see the A/FD or an approach plate.

The real question is if you are already talking to "an" ATC facility prior to your arrival (on flight following) can you assume the ATC will coordinate your entry if they don't already control the airspace, or is that a bad assumption?

 

[roncachamp]

The real question is if you are already talking to "an" ATC facility prior to your arrival (on flight following) can you assume the ATC will coordinate your entry if they don't already control the airspace, or is that a bad assumption?

That's a bad assumption, and I cannot fathom how anyone might make it.

 

[poadeleted20]

The real question is if you are already talking to "an" ATC facility prior to your arrival (on flight following) can you assume the ATC will coordinate your entry if they don't already control the airspace, or is that a bad assumption?

As long as they know where you are and where you're going, you can safely assume they will either:

1. Coordinate your transit, or
2. Tell you that you can't go in, or
3. Tell you who to call for approval.

 

[Sac Arrow]

That's good to know. I'm going to submit a fairly long list of CFI's requiring remedial training on Monday.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It's simply impossible for an airplane in Center space to hit C-space without going through TRACON space first. So either it must either have changed course/altitude or the Center controller dropped the ball a long way back.

Holy cow.

Seems to me, we've been talking about the "whose fault is it if..." for several pages, with the idea that the controller forgot.

As long as they know where you are and where you're going, you can safely assume they will either:

1. Coordinate your transit, or
2. Tell you that you can't go in, or
3. Tell you who to call for approval.

No, you can't. Controllers are human. Humans make mistakes. Heck, I've been completely forgotten by a controller when IFR! So, the adage about assumptions holds true.

So, in the case where the controller does not do one of the above (which is the controller's responsibility), it is STILL the pilot's responsibility to speak up prior to entering someone else's airspace. The Granby letter addresses this, and presumably the FAA feels the same about class D or B as well.