[OT] How long to get a Ford Catalytic Converter?

[JimNtexas]

Twenty five days ago I dropped my 70,000 mile 2012 Ford Focus off at the dealer to get some minor work done, including investigating an check engine light and a Texas state inspection.

Turns out the light was for a bad catalytic converter, which must be replaced in order for it to pass state inspection. The car is still under warranty.

After a week or so I started calling both the dealer and Ford Corporate customer service. They both told me that there are no catalytic converters for Ford's most popular car!

Last week the Ford customer service person said the part had been shipped, but she didn't know from where, didn't have any kind of tracking number, so she couldn't give me any guess as to when it might arrive.

The dealer says that as far as they know the part hasn't shipped yet.

I've called several other dealers, they all say they can't get these converters.

How is this possible??????

Everyone I've talked to has been polite, but they can't really do anything for me, nor can they find the true status of this part.

It doesn't appear I can do anything, but I'd really like to know the name of the Ford manager who is in charge of their supply chain. Could this fiasco be due to anything other than massive incompetence?

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

As it is a warranty item, I would politely tell the dealer that you would be more than happy to drive a loaner on their dime until they decide how they are going to make this right.

Then smile for as long as it takes while you put miles on their car.

 

[JimNtexas]

As it is a warranty item, I would politely tell the dealer that you would be more than happy to drive a loaner on their dime until they decide how they are going to make this right.

Then smile for as long as it takes while you put miles on their car.

Dealer: "We can't do that for liability reasons. You do get $30/day for a rental car"

Me: "But your cheapest rental car is $40/day."

Dealer: "Too bad, so sad."

I'm driving my 200,000 mile Ford Explorer, which still runs great, but since I drive about 50 miles a day it's eating a lot of gas.

 

[cowman]

I dunno about the supply issue but it seems really weird that a catalytic converter on a 2 year old car would fail after only 70,000 miles.

I would see if someone can verify the converter is actually bad and it's not a busted wire or bad O2 sensor. The way these things usually work is there's an O2 sensor before the catalytic converter in the exhaust system and one after. The first one reads oxygen and is used by the computer to tune the air/fuel ratio. The second sensor is only there to verify the catalytic converter is still working. If something is wrong with that second sensor or a bad wire or something, the computer might see it as a bad converter.

 

[wsuffa]

Last time I had a major problem with a car manufacturer (GM), I lived in a state with a lemon law. They got obstinate with me & major delays with tranny parts. They became very cooperative when I contacted the consumer protection agency and State's Attorney office.

That was quite a number of years ago. I haven't bought GM since.

 

[Henning]

Dealer: "We can't do that for liability reasons. You do get $30/day for a rental car"

Me: "But your cheapest rental car is $40/day."

Dealer: "Too bad, so sad."

I'm driving my 200,000 mile Ford Explorer, which still runs great, but since I drive about 50 miles a day it's eating a lot of gas.

Tell them bull****, their liability blanket covers covers anything that happens in their cars, besides,my of have your own insurance. If they won't, take your car to another dealer who will. I bet that changes the tune, warranty work is what makes a new car dealership work, not sales.

 

[Neal Howard]

Federal Law mandates 8 years / 80K miles emissions control warranty on catalytic converters of passenger cars.

Texas has a pretty good lemon law for new cars, but the emissions warranty enforcement is supposed to be the federal EPA's turf. There's supposedly an EPA number to call, but given the dysfunction in government today, who knows if they could/would be of any help to you.

 

[MAKG1]

I dunno about the supply issue but it seems really weird that a catalytic converter on a 2 year old car would fail after only 70,000 miles.

I would see if someone can verify the converter is actually bad and it's not a busted wire or bad O2 sensor. The way these things usually work is there's an O2 sensor before the catalytic converter in the exhaust system and one after. The first one reads oxygen and is used by the computer to tune the air/fuel ratio. The second sensor is only there to verify the catalytic converter is still working. If something is wrong with that second sensor or a bad wire or something, the computer might see it as a bad converter.

It's REALLY easy to test a cat.

Warm it up thoroughly until the computer is closed loop. Grab an IR thermometer and measure the temperature of the cat and its inlet. A working cat will be hotter than the incoming exhaust. Be careful not to measure the heat shield as it will be a lot cooler (that's the point, after all).

In an OBD-II vehicle, it's not at all hard to distinguish between an oxygen sensor fault and a cat fault. The upstream sensor will switch, and OBD-II has a set of specs for the various parts of its response curve. The downstream sensor will not register a cat fault unless it switches, too. If it's just open, you'll get a sensor fault but not a cat fault.

There are a few ways a cat can fail early, but it is almost always a symptom of something else. That is, they don't die, but rather get killed. They can fail structurally with rock hits, excessively rough roads, perhaps corrosion (though it would take a lot). They can fail internally by excessively rich mixture. These do not always set codes (though they do if it's real bad). It can be caused by vacuum leaks, ruptured fuel pressure regulators, poor spark in one cylinder, and so on. If this happens, the vehicle will drive like a total dog. It won't get out of its own way.

The big one? Exhaust leak. Is the engine real loud? You'll get nearly normal engine performance with this one, but the sensor will read oxygen that didn't come through the engine and will enrich the mixture. Until the fuel trim maxes out, you won't get a code. This can melt the cat as you blast a bunch of unburned fuel and some oxygen as well. Same thing if you run an unrepaired ignition miss for a long time.

I hope these guys had the sense to plunk a scanner on the vehicle and read the fuel trims.

Modern cats are very model specific. Not because they do anything different from any other, but because of the exhaust plumbing. Supply chain problems happen, and sometimes they are severe. You might insist on a universal, but they may need to dig the welder out of the pile of unused crap they haven't touched in 10 years.

Remember, FORD = "Found On Road Dead." For the record, I used to drive a very early Exploder (first year, serial number ~30,000), and put 300,000 miles on it. Ford light trucks can be identified by sound. Characteristic power steering pump whine….

 

[KSMooniac]

You need to talk to some district-level ford guy and at least get the loaner car going on their dime. What a fiasco.

 

[AggieMike88]

Jim; for some data gathering, call the local independant exhaust and muffler shop (not the chains) and ask them if they could service your car with a new cat (aftermarket), certify the emissions, and have you one your way by the end of the day or next day.

If they say yes, then definitely start putting pressure on the dealership.

Somebody is definitely dropping the ball here claiming you need to put an OEM cat on there (which you don't).

FYI; 4 years ago, I had both cats replaced on my 2003 F150 6cyl truck for less than $500 installed with tax. I got the call to come back and get the truck (I had dropped it off) within 4.5hrs of leaving it with the shop.

 

[Doggtyred]

Some unsolicited advice. The cat converter rarely if ever fails of its own accord. Its simply a pipe with metal beads in it. Something else (monitored or unmonitored by the OBDII) has most likely caused the CC to fail. Replacing the CC without fixing the problem will fail the new CC in short order.

 

[Henning]

Some unsolicited advice. The cat converter rarely if ever fails of its own accord. Its simply a pipe with metal beads in it. Something else (monitored or unmonitored by the OBDII) has most likely caused the CC to fail. Replacing the CC without fixing the problem will fail the new CC in short order.

Many modern converters do not use beads, they use a form of a web matrix of a metallic-ceramic composition commonly formed in squares, diamonds, and hexagons, and sometimes this physically fails and blows out. Sometimes though, as you say, it becomes contaminated and ineffective, sometimes even clogging, this was the effect lead had on them. Lots f possibilities to consider....

 

[Mike Smith]

Jim, I am the parts manager at a Ford dealership. Send me a PM if you would like for me to check on this for you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ted]

Jim, they're screwing you and need to at least give you a loaner on their dime. Nothing that yelling at the right person wouldn't fix.

Cats should last way longer than 70k...

 

[Henning]

Jim, they're screwing you and need to at least give you a loaner on their dime. Nothing that yelling at the right person wouldn't fix.

Cats should last way longer than 70k...

Unless you run over something or play Dukes of Hazard at RR crossings, emulate chase scenes from Streets of San Francisco or Dirty Harry, drive a hot converter into flood water, or some other physically traumatic thing to it.

They are far from damage proof.

 

[cowman]

Somebody is definitely dropping the ball here claiming you need to put an OEM cat on there (which you don't).

Maybe OEM is a requirement for the warranty? Only speculating.

 

[Ted]

Unless you run over something or play Dukes of Hazard at RR crossings, emulate chase scenes from Streets of San Francisco or Dirty Harry, drive a hot converter into flood water, or some other physically traumatic thing to it.

They are far from damage proof.

Very true. But to give an example, a friend of mine who does road testing for Chrysler was driving a Challenger SRT8 with cats on it that were aged (artificially) to about 150,000 miles when he visited last week. Still working great. He said the artificial aging was harsher than normal use and was really more like 250k.

 

[cowman]

This whole thread is making me picture a group of guys standing around a car in a driveway sipping beer while speculating on what the problem might be.

Come on let's jack her up and take a look already.

 

[KSMooniac]

Cats in my chevy pickup expired after some misfiring due to a faulty distributor cap (that was proactively replaced in during a tuneup!). Unburnt fuel will do a lot of harm!

I replaced them with an aftermarket Magnaflow kit that bolted-in for under $400 and got $100 back from the cats at a local scrapper.

 

[Henning]

Very true. But to give an example, a friend of mine who does road testing for Chrysler was driving a Challenger SRT8 with cats on it that were aged (artificially) to about 150,000 miles when he visited last week. Still working great. He said the artificial aging was harsher than normal use and was really more like 250k.

Yeah, since leaded gas disappeared from gas stations, the only failures I have seen on converters is by physically damaging them, and I doubt if that is part of the artificial aging program. Without physical operating condition damage, my suspicion would fall to poor quality control in the manufacturing of the converter and or catalytic matrix. Converters don't just 'go bad' without something damaging them. You would have to choke the engine with fuel almost to damage it using unleaded, and I doubt anyone would not notice the loss of fuel mileage.

 

[KyleT]

If you are making payments demand that ford pay the months payments that it has been in their possession.

If not, enjoy the loaner and keep pressuring them. The willingness for them to help out an owner of a 70k mile focus is just not very high unfortunately.

A polite firm inquiry to the parts manager may get stuff done, and anonymously calling other dealers parts dept. close and asking about availability of that part may lead you to one not in the "system". Then get your car and take it to them.

I will say I saw plenty of cats go bad with no external damage. We could speculate all day every which way why, but there was no firm reason or pattern to this that we saw.

 

[PaulS]

I've got a toasted cat in a 2008 hemi jeep gc. Took a while to figure out what was going on, but I think what happened is the egr valve was sticking open causing a lean reading at lower rpms which in turn caused the bank to go too rich frying the thing. $1350 at the dealer for the y pipe that has two cats, not installed.... assachusetts uses California emissions. It's got 130 k on it.

No help to you, but I share your misery.

 

[kyleb]

Not relevant to the OP, but I had a good experience with an aftermarket cat I had to install on my old 1999 (?) Accord.

The original cat failed at ~120k miles. The OEM replacement was $700 at the Honda dealer. The aftermarket unit was $150 at the local Midas.

The aftermarket cat was still going strong when the car was sold at ~300k miles.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

The test for the cat is one of the most difficult and least reliable tests in the OBD II rules. It used to be that you could just look at the switch rate of the downstream sensor and if it was too high, then it meant that the catalyst O2 storage capacity was lost and the efficiency was down. But, people figured out that you could put a little R/C filter on the downstream sensor and not set the codes even with no cat at all. California's A.R.B. didn't like that and changed the rules. Now you have to detect slow sensors without setting a code because the catalyst makes the sensor look slow, and also still detect the bad catalyst even if there is a slow sensor.

So, your problem may be due to a bad catalyst or you just managed to drive it in a way to trick the diagnostic. For this sort of code, the best thing is to clear it yourself first and drive for a couple months to see if it stays gone. You can't just clear it and take the car in, because there are codes that tell if you have driven enough to actually detect faults if one were present (obviously, these do not turn on the light), so you want to clear any codes well in advance of going in for any kind of state inspection.

 

[AggieMike88]

Jim, they're screwing you and need to at least give you a loaner on their dime. Nothing that yelling at the right person wouldn't fix.

Cats should last way longer than 70k...

Yup. Which is why I get same scrap values on cats off of 150k mile cars/trucks as I do ones with 60k or less. Occasionally one has lost some of the media/matrix and I get a reduced price. But this is due to some of the physical reasons Henning mentioned.

 

[PaulS]

The test for the cat is one of the most difficult and least reliable tests in the OBD II rules. It used to be that you could just look at the switch rate of the downstream sensor and if it was too high, then it meant that the catalyst O2 storage capacity was lost and the efficiency was down. But, people figured out that you could put a little R/C filter on the downstream sensor and not set the codes even with no cat at all. California's A.R.B. didn't like that and changed the rules. Now you have to detect slow sensors without setting a code because the catalyst makes the sensor look slow, and also still detect the bad catalyst even if there is a slow sensor.

So, your problem may be due to a bad catalyst or you just managed to drive it in a way to trick the diagnostic. For this sort of code, the best thing is to clear it yourself first and drive for a couple months to see if it stays gone. You can't just clear it and take the car in, because there are codes that tell if you have driven enough to actually detect faults if one were present (obviously, these do not turn on the light), so you want to clear any codes well in advance of going in for any kind of state inspection.

Geoffrey, not sure if your post was directed at me, but we are down to the cat, O2 sensors replaced ( with OEM), no leaks in the exhaust, PCM reflashed, yet it repeatedly fails the slow sensor test and less often the cat efficiency test. If you look at the down stream o2 sensor on the good bank, the signal is very stable where the downstream o2 sensor on the bad cat follows the upstream sensor and is much more active. I was able to get a sticker as the slow sensor test needs the jeep going over 60mph, and the cat efficiency test takes a few hundred miles to set. But it's a pain in the butt with the MIL light on as the remote start won't work and the cylinder deactivation doesn't work along with a few other things.

 

[MAKG1]

Did anyone think to test the electrics between that slow downstream sensor, the PCM, and ground? Is it a heated sensor? Is the heater powered?

It's one of my major pet peeves when someone reads a code and immediately grabs a sensor. Those should also last well over 70K miles unless fouled or physically damaged.

 

[StinkBug]

Regardless of the reason for the cat being bad there is a reason why cats are hard to come by on a lot of new cars. It's because they aren't supposed to fail so soon, and all of the ones produced are for cars on the production lines still. They simply haven't started throwing those parts into bins for repair orders yet because they aren't supposed to be failing.

Sucks for you, but I'd certainly be talking to Ford about a loaner car. That liability stuff is BS, tons of dealers have loaners, and if they are gonna pay for a rental, they should pay for a rental. You need to get angrier, and louder in an area where new car customers can hear. Last thing they want is to lose a car sale because that loses them both that sale and all the service after the sale.

 

[Henning]

Cats don't get repaired, they don't get resold, they get recycled for scrap. There are no catalytic converters available at the junkyard except to scrappers. There is a reasonable aftermarket these days though, and cats should outlive the warranty, that's likely why the factory spares don't exist, the industry relies on the aftermarket to provide.

 

[48dodge]

You haven't put any 100LL in your tank have you?

 

[N747JB]

Maybe OEM is a requirement for the warranty? Only speculating.

Yes, OEM must be used for warranty. I seldom use OEM converters on used cars that are out of warranty, they are about 3X's the cost of aftermarket.

 

[N747JB]

Rental cars are covered by extended service agreements, Ford will reimburse dealers a certain number of rental days per year. The number varies between dealers, but it is a very small number, maybe 3-5% of the total number of warranty claims. They are allocated 6 months at a time we have normally used our allocation by the 4th month.
Every dealer has their own policy on rental/loaner cars, most will offer them during the 1st 12/12,000, some longer, some not at all.
Was the car purchased from the dealer? Is it serviced there? Do you have other vehicles that were purchased or serviced there? Is the issue recurring or the fault of the dealership? These are some of the things that would go into the decision for the dealer to pay for a rental car.

 

[Henning]

Yes, OEM must be used for warranty. I seldom use OEM converters on used cars that are out of warranty, they are about 3X's the cost of aftermarket.

Here's a thing to consider, that OEM converter must still be cheaper to produce than to buy the AM unit, otherwise they would allow it. The money in the auto business is in the parts supply. Way back in HS I was asked to cover for one of the parts guys over Christmas vacation at a Cadillac dealer. Ok... This is at the time the parts counters were transitioning to computers from books and microfiche. So, it was slow and as I sat there, I 'bought all the parts' to assemble a fully loaded Fleetwood Brougham. Now mind you, I could buy this car assembled and painted on the showroom floor for $17,500, drive it away. The parts alone were over $47k.

 

[Alexb2000]

So you have an ESP on the vehicle?

You know that by not taking the rental car you are letting the dealership off the hook with ESP. Twenty five days with most brands would require ESP approval for the extended rental and their involvement to find the part since they are paying the claim. In fact it is conceivable that someone else is getting parts first because of ESP's involvement routing parts to them first since they are in a rental car.

Also, I use Avis and there are certainly rental cars available for less than $210 (7x$30) a week in Austin. Have you spoken to them about it?

 

[PaulS]

Here's a thing to consider, that OEM converter must still be cheaper to produce than to buy the AM unit, otherwise they would allow it. The money in the auto business is in the parts supply. Way back in HS I was asked to cover for one of the parts guys over Christmas vacation at a Cadillac dealer. Ok... This is at the time the parts counters were transitioning to computers from books and microfiche. So, it was slow and as I sat there, I 'bought all the parts' to assemble a fully loaded Fleetwood Brougham. Now mind you, I could buy this car assembled and painted on the showroom floor for $17,500, drive it away. The parts alone were over $47k.

My understanding of the AM convertors is they don't put as much catalyst material inside as the OEM, the materials inside, which include platinum are most of the cost of the convertor. The end result, as explained by my mechanic, is that they don't last as long as the OEM, especially in states that have adopted CA emissions.

 

[Henning]

My understanding of the AM convertors is they don't put as much catalyst material inside as the OEM, the materials inside, which include platinum are most of the cost of the convertor. The end result, as explained by my mechanic, is that they don't last as long as the OEM, especially in states that have adopted CA emissions.

But that wouldn't really matter on a used car so long as they met standard for the duration of the warranty. What they are doing is creating a paper loss that is greater than their realized cost. That is the financial game that mitigates the cost of warranty work. It creates a scenario where due to tax benefit, it is a 'free' service. It's a corporate welfare program to benefit those wealthy enough to buy a new car!

Basically the tax payer foots the bill for manufacturing defects. You think Communism is bad?

 

[Alexb2000]

My understanding of the AM convertors is they don't put as much catalyst material inside as the OEM, the materials inside, which include platinum are most of the cost of the convertor. The end result, as explained by my mechanic, is that they don't last as long as the OEM, especially in states that have adopted CA emissions.

Agreed, this is exactly why I use a CA spec. convertor (even though I'm not in CA) when the OEM isn't possible. Most of those cheap convertors are designed to pass emissions… once, barely, get a sticker, and go directly to auction.

 

[PaulS]

But that wouldn't really matter on a used car so long as they met standard for the duration of the warranty. What they are doing is creating a paper loss that is greater than their realized cost. That is the financial game that mitigates the cost of warranty work. It creates a scenario where due to tax benefit, it is a 'free' service. It's a corporate welfare program to benefit those wealthy enough to buy a new car!

Basically the tax payer foots the bill for manufacturing defects. You think Communism is bad?

OK, you lost me on the "tax" and corporate bailout thing.

 

[Henning]

Agreed, this is exactly why I use a CA spec. convertor (even though I'm not in CA) when the OEM isn't possible. Most of those cheap convertors are designed to pass emissions… once, barely, get a sticker, and go directly to auction.

Maybe some, I don't buy the cheapest junk out there either so maybe I haven't run across it. The couple I have had installed have lasted pretty well and don't fail inspection. Like you, I get ones that are CA/50 State legal and see good service in my limited sample. Another thing to consider, most cars replacing a CC don't have that much longer for life anyway. Typically CCs last the life of a car, and when they go, everything else will follow in short order. This is pretty much true regardless if it is damage or age/use related. If someone breaks a CC, chances are they'll total it before the warranty is up.

 

[AggieMike88]

I could buy this car assembled and painted on the showroom floor for $17,500, drive it away. The parts alone were over $47k.

Welcome to my world.