I obtained the PPL in 89. My CFI advised spins were not required at that time, but he did have me demonstrate spin recovery including under the hood.I don't remember it been a required item for PPL, at least in the time I've been in the flying business. Which admittedly isn't long compared to some of the dinosaurs on here, maybe they can expand on when the FAA required spin training to attain a PPL.
The spin requirement was gone by the time I started training in 1971, though my instructor did give me a lesson on spinning and recovery.Little over a week before this, I was visiting my son and he told me the day I was leaving that he was going to be doing spin recovery in the T6A that morning (he's an IP for that aircraft, but this sortie was without a student and for his own proficiency). Even as I'm just getting started in a Piper, I asked my CFI to put us into one so I could experience it. Juan Browne stated in his video that spin training is no longer taught in civilian flight training, which makes no sense to me. I damn sure want to know how to avoid it- and what to do to in the event I fail...
Indeed. And that was the argument made by the T-6 pilot embedded video clip within that blanco T-6 video (a YT video featuring another YT video, gotta love the internet). I concur with his premise that spin recovery proficiency is moot at pattern altitudes. It is the spin onset/recognition of the incipient rotation stall indication that is more important, and self-limits the entire control-departing sequence in the first place. If that carveout/training approach also keeps a cohort from not giving up on flying because they can't stand flight in 3 dimensions, then twofer I suppose.The spin requirement was gone by the time I started training in 1971, though my instructor did give me a lesson on spinning and recovery.
The impetus of the removal was the realization that people mostly weren't dying from being unable to recover from a spin; they were dying from stalling too low for recovery FROM the spin. So the FAA changed the emphasis on stall/spin PREVENTION...the "I damn sure want to know how to avoid it" you mentioned. If you avoid the stall, you avoid the spin.
Oh I'd be screaming too alright, but not for the reason you think. I disagree with the equivalence btw. I don't find learning the anachronism of pushing a grocery shopping cart from the castering-end particularly germane to piloting. Commercial insurance would just skyrocket if you added TW, and given the already discussed landscape in airline-hegemonic CFI land, that's just a recipe for a ton more ground loops in this space.I think *taking* spin training is a good way to increase your piloting skills. But I feel the same way about taildragger training. You'd hear a LOT of screams if the FAA started requiring a few hours of taildragger time during flight instruction....
Probably more productive to ignore them and not give them clicks than watch their dumb videos and point out errors. They and their fans will never admit they get anything wrong.She did not have only 200 hours, that was Gryder pulling that out of his nether regions like usual. And his assessment of stalls/spins, and Juan’s, shows they probably haven’t actually done it. And there’s nothing wrong with a tail low wheel landing, either. And I’d like to meet the T-6 pilot who has never bobbled one on. I do T-6 checkouts for insurance, transition training for new T-6 pilots, and have flown T-6s for 15 years. Scott Perdue’s discussion on it was respectful. With the caveat that we still don’t know what happened, because it could have been a control failure, or a pax whose foot got stuck at the base of the stick, or a prop failure, or…nobody knows here, not really. But with that caveat, his take on it was the only one I’d put any stock in. He actually flies them, too.
I usually let other people click and then tell me. But the downside to not correcting their errors is that people then are free to think “a 200 hour pilot who didn’t belong in a T-6 as evidenced by this terrible landing couldn’t recover from a basic spin which is no big deal”, and then they pass that info along until it’s gospel. Which isn’t right or fair… normally I try to ignore it. Once in awhile one comes along that makes that harder.Probably more productive to ignore them and not give them clicks than watch their dumb videos and point out errors. The abs their fans will never admit they get anything wrong.
No one knows for sure (or isn’t talking) as to what was planned for the flight.I had a question about this flight, not even about the spin issue. Backing up more, what type of maneuvers were planned, had been done, & doing?
Whilst we can say pilot error and be correct, it's possible that a terrified passenger becomes the pilot, and pulls back hard on the stick. It's happened. The T6 snaps over about five times quicker than my Skyhawk, and a fully developed spin is nearly instant.It's because there is no other info right now to give us an idea of what the initial cause was.
I just watched Juan's video and while I'm not a huge fan of him, I thought it was one of his better ones. He obviously did more research on the pilot than DG did and kept it respectful while addressing what appears to be known -the airplane spun in from almost 4000'.
'In extreme cases, the inertial pitching moment could exceed the capability of the elevators to introduce an aerodynamic pitching moment in order to effect a recovery from the spin. It was for this reason that our Pilot’s Handling Notes included a statement to the effect of “Recovery from a spin might be facilitated by the occupant of the rear seat bailing out first”.'PPL Spin Training is not the issue here. There is a world of difference between awareness/recovery in a spam can or typical aerobatic aircraft and a T6. I routinely practice spins at 3000 feet in my Decathlon. That would be foolhardy in a T6.
Total pilot hours is also not the issue. Hours in type might be. I don't know that number, but do recall reading the family had only owned this aircraft only a short time.
Here is an article on spin training from an instructor pilot with 50 years experience in the T6: https://www.t6harvard.com/pilot-stories/spinning-the-t6-scully-levin/ One point got my attention: an unintended spin at a higher than normal entry speed often results in the aircraft snapping over on its back.
Mechanical causes should not be ruled out just yet. A close friend of mine who collects and restores vintage aircraft looked at the accident aircraft a few years ago for purchase. At the time, it was very much a "project" aircraft. He expressed misgivings about the condition at that time.
Yikes.'In extreme cases, the inertial pitching moment could exceed the capability of the elevators to introduce an aerodynamic pitching moment in order to effect a recovery from the spin. It was for this reason that our Pilot’s Handling Notes included a statement to the effect of “Recovery from a spin might be facilitated by the occupant of the rear seat bailing out first”.'
From what I understand, I don't think this was a 'terrified' passenger. Guy was heavily involved with warbirds. But, even the most well mannered passenger can accidentally touch something critical at the wrong time resulting in disaster.Whilst we can say pilot error and be correct, it's possible that a terrified passenger becomes the pilot, and pulls back hard on the stick. It's happened. The T6 snaps over about five times quicker than my Skyhawk, and a fully developed spin is nearly instant.
I was a rated rotary wing aviator adding a fixed wing rating in 1985. I did spin training in a 172 over Monterey Bay at night. Might as well have been under a hood. Invaluable training. Glad I benefitted friend it.My training was in 1982-83. My instructor was stupid enough to show me one. I practiced them solo without his knowledge.
I don’t know .. but I think that experiencing a few spins 20-30 years ago without staying current won’t make you any more prepared …Spins were not required when I did my PPL in 1969, but my CFI felt they were good insurance, and we did a couple in a 1960 Cessna 150.
First, he demonstrated, then I did 2 or more, until he was satisfied that I reacted quickly and properly.
On the ground, the Examiner asked if Ozzie had taught me spins, I affirmed.
In the air, power off stall, he kicked the left rudder full to the limit, and I recovered from the resulting spin. He complimented Ozzie for my training.
Years later, I did an hour of aerobatic flight in a Cessna Aerobat, and became comfortable with my skills for recovering from any unusual attitude that turbulence might produce. Small Cessna's are pretty benign for stall recovery.
A T 6 is a completely different skill.