Operations at Non-Towered Airports

[gkainz]

"Taking the active" is a word or two short of complete. The more appropriate would be "Podunk traffic, Warrior 4321A, taking the active 6 for departure, Podunk".

"Taking the active..." is a word or three too many, I think, and is not correct in a non-towered environment. More correct, IMHO, would be "Podunk traffic, Warrior 4321A, runway 6 for departure, Podunk". IIRC, there is no "active" runway, however, there is the runway currently in use.
Heard someone get razzed a while ago in response to the "taking the active" with "Where ya' takin it?" and another response was "Wait! Don't take it, 'cause I'm gonna be needin' it here in few minutes!"

 

[mikea]

As to "... please advise.", I've heard this on the back end of an IFR training approach and taken it to mean "NON STANDARD [VFR] APPROACH". It should be a heads up to get you looking beyond the standard VFR pattern for approach. How many VFR only pilots know the IFR approaches into their local airport? Hopefully you got enough information to figure out where the arriving aircraft is.
I know that while I was training, no one ever told me what those nonstandard radio calls related to.

How about "Podunk traffic, Cessna 3 6 Bravo is on a practice VOR Alpha approach 6 miles northwest at one thousand three hundred. Will be turning final for runway zero niner at 2 miles. Podunk."

Anything else means, "I'm instrument rated and if you don't know what I mean you deserve to be run into."

It's up to YOU, hey YOU, the guy talking to make sure everybody knows what YOU are saying. That's why it's a SAFETY procedure. If you can't make your positions and intentions clear just stay off the frequency.

Imagine an announcement, "Attention ENTIRE BUILDING. We have an emergency. Please follow emergency procedure Zulu one six Tango." Everybody else just die quietly.

What I always got was just the "on the V O R Alpha approach.." my CFI took the time to show me what the approach looked like.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

When I find less than optimal communications in the non-towered pattern or elsewhere, one of the most effective ways to boost overall quality is to simply speak by the book. Then the others usually straighten up quick- IF THEY'RE EVEN LISTENING -there's something about it, either a subliminal guilt trip since they were all taught the basics at some point or maybe they think you might be from the Feds ?

Trying to correct them has to be done very tactfully, if at all or they just get riled up and make things worse.

 

[Toby]

AOPA Air Safety Foundation has just posted an updated Safety Hot Spot about operations at non-towered airports. The Web page consolidates information from many sources via links.

Check it out at: http://www.aopa.org/asf/hotspot/

This is excellent, Bruce. Thanks.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I'm a little off topic here, but let's also watch towered airport. This post is from a friend on the Bonanza web board.

Dave

"Guys,

This is OT - but my hands are still shaking, and I have to tell some folks who might have some good ideas & advice.

This afternoon my wife (pregnant), dog & I flew from Arizona up to Eagle (Vail) Colorado. Postcard bluesky day - and the new GAMI baffles had me at 202KTAS at 15.5k. Life was good. Able to leave the office at 2:30pm in AZ, and have dinner in Vail with a dear friend who was in town.

I learned to fly in Eagle and lived there for a long time, so know the area very, very well. In range of EGE tower, cancel Flight following (too nice a day to file IFR), talk to tower. Reported left downwind abeam the tower, right on pattern altitude. Cleared to land. Have been monitoring tower freq for 30 miles and I'm the only guy around.

Strobes, taxi & landing lights are on while 10 miles out. Gear down, one notch of flaps, and on final.

Over the threshold and a bit higher -maybe 50 ft - than normal since there is usually a sink at the end of Rwy 25 - and am getting about ready to think about flaring -

THEN - something I hoped I'd never, ever see - a white flash below me

- a Cessna directly BELOW me by 10 - 20 feet and about 30 feet ahead of me just touching down. Yank to the right (the old runway & an open area is that direction) - float over the grass to the right of the runway as I firewall everything as I am paralleing this guy landing.

I could see how many antennas he had on the top, the kind of gas cap, and clearly read his tail number (N1925X). Simply firewalling everything probably would not have stopped my path into this guy - I had to yank over to the right and sidestep as I stopped my descent & firewalled everything.

Start yelling at tower, "Holy Sh** Tower, are you talking to a Cessa 25X??? 54E Going around!!" Tower excitedly and agitatedly asks "Airplane on runway - Eagle Tower.... Airplane on Taxiway Alpha - Eagle Tower.....Airplane at Ramp - Eagle Tower"

Find the numbnuts in the FBO - and the guy is dumber than a post.

Very, very low tide in the gene pool. I am one very, very ****ed off guy because some idiot just about took out my whole family and his only respose was showing some grubby piece of paper with scribbles on it and the comment, "I thought this was the frequency, I think it was last time I came in and been calling on it for a while, but didn't hear nothin' so.. I dunno..." He was not apologetic, not concerned, just looked like a grubby guy with a blank expression. He had no landing light on, no strobes - nothing. Forgot to even raise the flaps.

I guess the 40 biz jets, couple of 757's, and 80 some foot tall new control tower might have tipped him off - but no - this dim bulb just decided it was fine to go ahead and land straight-in and not talk to a soul.

Tower pulled the tapes and at their request, I faxed them my license, medical, & registration (maybe I shouldn't have - but I did nothing

wrong) - and talked with the controller. He is as upset as I am and his boss is talking to this numbnuts. He said the tapes were just as by the book as could be (except for my "HOLY S**T), and said that two other aircraft landing prior & subsequently said they heard no other traffic report. Three Navy KingAirs were at the FBO, and one Navy Ensign said to me, "I saw it and It was the funniest thing - I thought you guys were landing in formation - there was probably 10 - 15 feet vertically between you guys. Then I heard the story and wanted to kick the guys ass myself"

Guys, this pilot should NOT be anywhere near an airplane. If it wasn't me, it might be you, or the GV biz jet, or maybe that 757 with a couple of hundred people on it next time. What can I do to make sure this kind of idiot never gets behind a control wheel until he has it figured out? Who signed this mental midget off on his last BFR?

Sorry for the long rant, but this is the nearest I've come to being a greasy spot for a long time, and all due to the incompetence, ignorance, and laziness of some other pilot.

Can I do more with the FAA to keep this guy on the ground? Can I get him ramp checked? (I would be surprised if there were not deficiencies with the plane). Is there anything else I can do at this point?

OK - I'm done for now. One more margarita before bed - and an extra kiss for the wife since we have lived to tell about this one.

Fly Safe - keep a sharp lookout."

 

[Greebo]

Holy **** Dave, thats a hell of a story.

(Oh - you might want to wrap it in quote tags, just to make it clear where you're quoting someone else...right now it looks like your story...)

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Holy **** Dave, thats a hell of a story.

(Oh - you might want to wrap it in quote tags, just to make it clear where you're quoting someone else...right now it looks like your story...)

=================================
O.K. Thanks for the suggestion.

Dave

 

[Tom-D]

Can I do more with the FAA to keep this guy on the ground? Can I get him ramp checked? (I would be surprised if there were not deficiencies with the plane). Is there anything else I can do at this point?

OK - I'm done for now. One more margarita before bed - and an extra kiss for the wife since we have lived to tell about this one.

Fly Safe - keep a sharp lookout."

[/size]

To me this sounds like someone is WAY too depandant upon their radio.

Clear blue sky, and this guy sneaks up on ya?? Your base to final turn should have had him pegged from there.

I can understand not seeing him below and in front of the Bo. But was he there all the way around the pattern?

The Violation as I see it, was his not contacting tower.

NORDO ? RED light? Green Light? --- (His bad).

His ignoring the rules does not reliece you from responsibility of avoidance. VFR day means you look out the window and avoid ALL other aircraft.

calling FSDO may just turn this around on the Bo driver.

IF the Guy was lower and in front... who has right of way.

Day --- VFR --- NORDO!!! I love it. (shut up and drive)

Anyway, a real good lesson taught the hard way. No one hurt - learn and fly.

 

[wsuffa]

OK, Dave, so I gotta ask WHY the tower asked for a fax of his license and medical. That is asking for trouble, I think....

I've had a small share of issues at towered airports (including the one where tower cleared a guy for TO on the opposite end of the runway to which I was cleared to land short final), but never anything quite like your friend's story.

The moral is: eyes always on a swivel, even when you think it clear.

 

[Greebo]

To me this sounds like someone is WAY too depandant upon their radio.

At a non-towered field, I'd agree. At a towered field, radio communications are mandatory. That said, see-and-avoid is, of course, always the pilots responsibility.

IF the Guy was lower and in front... who has right of way.

At a towered field? I thought the "lower on final" rules only applied to non-towered?

 

[Tom-D]

OK, Dave, so I gotta ask WHY the tower asked for a fax of his license and medical. That is asking for trouble, I think....

I've had a small share of issues at towered airports (including the one where tower cleared a guy for TO on the opposite end of the runway to which I was cleared to land short final), but never anything quite like your friend's story.

The moral is: eyes always on a swivel, even when you think it clear.

Most likely going to violate the pilot.

" Landing at towered airport with out clearance."

Flying the down wind and Wagging your wings tells the tower what?

If you get a green light what can you do?
If you get a red light what are you to do?

 

[wsuffa]

At a non-towered field, I'd agree. At a towered field, radio communications are mandatory. That said, see-and-avoid is, of course, always the pilots responsibility.

There is an exception for Class D that permits arrival and landing in the event of communications failure.

Pertinant quote: " (2) If the aircraft radio fails in flight under VFR, the pilot in command may operate that aircraft and land if -- "

At a towered field? I thought the "lower on final" rules only applied to non-towered?

I don't recall any exceptions to those rules that says "non-towered" only....

The serious violation is failing to get a clearance to land. And probably careless and reckless for not having the proper radio frequencies/charts. If he can show radio failure, then it's just clearance to land.

 

[wsuffa]

Most likely going to violate the pilot.

" Landing at towered airport with out clearance."

Flying the down wind and Wagging your wings tells the tower what?

If you get a green light what can you do?
If you get a red light what are you to do?

Tom, as I read it the Bo' pilot was the one doing the faxing. He did have landing clearance.

I agree with you on the rest of it....

 

[Tom-D]

Tom, as I read it the Bo' pilot was the one doing the faxing. He did have landing clearance.

I agree with you on the rest of it....

It really doesn't matter who's doing the Faxing, the tower is recieving and they'll do the violation paper work, and submit it to the FSDO.
Towers have a lot of clout with FSDO, and when they send in the paper, with out asking for a call they are POed, and don't want to talk.

The pilot can kiss his ticket good buy for 90 days and a check ride, and maybe some remedial training with a CFI.

And from here, that looks like a good thing.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I'm a little off topic here, but let's also watch towered airport. This post is from a friend on the Bonanza web board.

Dave

"Guys,

This is OT - but my hands are still shaking, and I have to tell some folks who might have some good ideas & advice.

This afternoon my wife (pregnant), dog & I flew from Arizona up to Eagle (Vail) Colorado. Postcard bluesky day - and the new GAMI baffles had me at 202KTAS at 15.5k. Life was good. Able to leave the office at 2:30pm in AZ, and have dinner in Vail with a dear friend who was in town.

I learned to fly in Eagle and lived there for a long time, so know the area very, very well. In range of EGE tower, cancel Flight following (too nice a day to file IFR), talk to tower. Reported left downwind abeam the tower, right on pattern altitude. Cleared to land. Have been monitoring tower freq for 30 miles and I'm the only guy around.

Strobes, taxi & landing lights are on while 10 miles out. Gear down, one notch of flaps, and on final.

Over the threshold and a bit higher -maybe 50 ft - than normal since there is usually a sink at the end of Rwy 25 - and am getting about ready to think about flaring -

THEN - something I hoped I'd never, ever see - a white flash below me

- a Cessna directly BELOW me by 10 - 20 feet and about 30 feet ahead of me just touching down. Yank to the right (the old runway & an open area is that direction) - float over the grass to the right of the runway as I firewall everything as I am paralleing this guy landing.

I could see how many antennas he had on the top, the kind of gas cap, and clearly read his tail number (N1925X). Simply firewalling everything probably would not have stopped my path into this guy - I had to yank over to the right and sidestep as I stopped my descent & firewalled everything.

Start yelling at tower, "Holy Sh** Tower, are you talking to a Cessa 25X??? 54E Going around!!" Tower excitedly and agitatedly asks "Airplane on runway - Eagle Tower.... Airplane on Taxiway Alpha - Eagle Tower.....Airplane at Ramp - Eagle Tower"

Find the numbnuts in the FBO - and the guy is dumber than a post.

Very, very low tide in the gene pool. I am one very, very ****ed off guy because some idiot just about took out my whole family and his only respose was showing some grubby piece of paper with scribbles on it and the comment, "I thought this was the frequency, I think it was last time I came in and been calling on it for a while, but didn't hear nothin' so.. I dunno..." He was not apologetic, not concerned, just looked like a grubby guy with a blank expression. He had no landing light on, no strobes - nothing. Forgot to even raise the flaps.

I guess the 40 biz jets, couple of 757's, and 80 some foot tall new control tower might have tipped him off - but no - this dim bulb just decided it was fine to go ahead and land straight-in and not talk to a soul.

Tower pulled the tapes and at their request, I faxed them my license, medical, & registration (maybe I shouldn't have - but I did nothing

wrong) - and talked with the controller. He is as upset as I am and his boss is talking to this numbnuts. He said the tapes were just as by the book as could be (except for my "HOLY S**T), and said that two other aircraft landing prior & subsequently said they heard no other traffic report. Three Navy KingAirs were at the FBO, and one Navy Ensign said to me, "I saw it and It was the funniest thing - I thought you guys were landing in formation - there was probably 10 - 15 feet vertically between you guys. Then I heard the story and wanted to kick the guys ass myself"

Guys, this pilot should NOT be anywhere near an airplane. If it wasn't me, it might be you, or the GV biz jet, or maybe that 757 with a couple of hundred people on it next time. What can I do to make sure this kind of idiot never gets behind a control wheel until he has it figured out? Who signed this mental midget off on his last BFR?

Sorry for the long rant, but this is the nearest I've come to being a greasy spot for a long time, and all due to the incompetence, ignorance, and laziness of some other pilot.

Can I do more with the FAA to keep this guy on the ground? Can I get him ramp checked? (I would be surprised if there were not deficiencies with the plane). Is there anything else I can do at this point?

OK - I'm done for now. One more margarita before bed - and an extra kiss for the wife since we have lived to tell about this one.

Fly Safe - keep a sharp lookout."

Sincerely sorry about the close call...

But, a BFR or any other CFI sign off, just says the pilot passed "on that day". Although it is concievable he was not signed off at all, or his "skills" had suffered perishability.

Also, a FREQ on piece of paper... ? Last I knew we were supposed to fly with a current chart, so maybe you can get this "pilot" on that.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

OK, Dave, so I gotta ask WHY the tower asked for a fax of his license and medical. That is asking for trouble, I think....

I've had a small share of issues at towered airports (including the one where tower cleared a guy for TO on the opposite end of the runway to which I was cleared to land short final), but never anything quite like your friend's story.

The moral is: eyes always on a swivel, even when you think it clear.

Bill:

Since this was from a friend on another board, I can't address all the issues. There was discussion. I think when in class D when one is talking to the tower, there is a belief tower is responsible for maintaining separation. And they are, but other things come first. This may have been a non-radar tower.

Other board members suggested my friend file a NASA form for several reasons, not the least of which was his swearing on the radio (there have been other busts for this). Most folks wondered what the folks in the tower were doing. It's a place where TCAD may have given one a heads up (if the other guy had a transponder and it was on). Faxing license, etc. would substantiate legality when making a complaint as well as positively identifying parties and aircraft being fit for flight. If there's a complaint/dispute, it would be pretty embarassing to later determine one pilot wasn't legal.

Dave

 

[wsuffa]

Bill:

Since this was from a friend on another board, I can't address all the issues. There was discussion. I think when in class D when one is talking to the tower, there is a belief tower is responsible for maintaining separation. And they are, but other things come first. This may have been a non-radar tower.

Other board members suggested my friend file a NASA form for several reasons, not the least of which was his swearing on the radio (there have been other busts for this). Most folks wondered what the folks in the tower were doing. It's a place where TCAD may have given one a heads up (if the other guy had a transponder and it was on). Faxing license, etc. would substantiate legality when making a complaint as well as positively identifying parties and aircraft being fit for flight. If there's a complaint/dispute, it would be pretty embarassing to later determine one pilot wasn't legal.

Dave

I figured that was the case. But remember that the tower (or ATC) only assures separation on the ground or IFR separation between participating aircraft. There is no requirement for ATC to provide VFR-VFR separation.... even in Class D space. That's especially true if he was given a visual approach. ATC will generally advise of conflicts with VFR aircraft, but I don't believe it's mandatory (Where's Rick Cote or Todd Henning when you need them). I don't recall if it's radar or not. Bruce would probably know.

So, I'm not sure you're guy is completely in the clear.

EGE is a tough enough airport anyway due to the terrain - especially if one of them didn't have turbocharging. (A division of my former employer once had an office within about a mile of KEGE, been there many times, but not for the last 6 years).

An ASRS is a really great idea.

I don't know whether ATC is required to report this kind of near-miss, VFR and all, but there is some chance of them pursuing both pilots since safety was compromised (the other guy for reckless/careless & failure to get clearance, your guy for failure to see and avoid). It all depends on how PO'd the FSDO is.

 

[MSmith]

Other board members suggested my friend file a NASA form for several reasons, not the least of which was his swearing on the radio (there have been other busts for this).

You have to be kidding.

You are on final, about to land, and you discover a plane BELOW you.

You can be busted for SWEARING?

It seems to me that it might be justified at that point.

 

[bbchien]

He'll be getting a 709 ride. The FSDO has the option to give him remediation (solo flight) or a 709. This is pretty egregious. Landed w/o a clearance. No current sectional (any and all pertinent information)...and I don't see how w/o the freq he can say it wasn't pertinent.

 

[grattonja]

He'll be getting a 709 ride. The FSDO has the option to give him remediation (solo flight) or a 709. This is pretty egregious. Landed w/o a clearance. No current sectional (any and all pertinent information)...and I don't see how w/o the freq he can say it wasn't pertinent.

Let's face facts, he SHOULD get a 709 ride. I have to agree with the poster who said this guy has no business being in the sky.

We all have bad days, lord knows I have had my share, but the combination of landing without a clearance from a tower controlled, doing so while sharing short final with another aircraft at paint exchanging distances, and then flying with a slip of paper with a frequency on it, is lethal. It sounds, from what we have been told, that only the competency of the other pilot saved this from being a likely multiple fatal.

It scares me just thinking about it.

Jim G

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Well, Mark. You and I share the feeling it might be justified, but guys have received fines for it. If it's on tape and you are positively identified and file a complaint, lot's of folks are going to hear it. Some don't feel they have any discretion when it comes to enforcing rules.

Guess we'll see, but it can't hurt to file the form.

Best,

Dave

 

[wsuffa]

Well, Mark. You and I share the feeling it might be justified, but guys have received fines for it. If it's on tape and you are positively identified and file a complaint, lot's of folks are going to hear it. Some don't feel they have any discretion when it comes to enforcing rules.

Guess we'll see, but it can't hurt to file the form.

Best,

Dave

And with the FCC on an anti-obscenity kick right now for anything over the air...... and Sensenbrenner talking about criminal penalties....

Something is wrong where bad language on the radio can get you a bigger penalty than endangering life....

 

[Razor]

Wow, what a story.

Numbnuts can be reported to the FSDO by anyone who saw the incident. In addition to a rule violation, safety was compromised through ignorance and a complaint can be filed. I have the unfortunate experience of making that call once myself (I was uninvolved in the incident, just a witness to it), and though it's not easy (there was this subconcious fear that the Feds would hear my complaint then start watching *me* more closely), it was clearly the right choice at the time.

In addition, Numbnuts can look forward to a 709 ride with the friendly neighborhood Feds and probably some form of suspension at the very least.

There was an assumption by the Bonanza pilot that Numbnuts was actually signed off on his last Flight Review. Without looking at a logbook, no one can say if he was even legal. And there's nothing that says a suspended license would keep this guys from flying again anyway, especially if he owns the plane he was in.

The only other point I can make is what several others have already said... Talking to ATC does not relieve you of your see and avoid responsibility. One of the common mistakes we make as pilots (I'm guilty myself) is expectation. We all have expectations that certain courses of action have certain results. Unfortunately, you can't do that. Every flight requires vigilance no matter how routine.

I once heard a saying that went something like this: "If you ever feel completely comfortable when you are flying, it's time to land and call it a day because you are surely missing something."

While Numbnuts bears the brunt of the responsibility here, the Bonanza pilot needs to keep in mind that complacency and a set of expectations contributed to this. To be cliche, expect the unexpected on every flight. If you don't, you're asking for trouble.

My two cents,

Carolyn

 

[SkyHog]

So what wound up happening with the violating pilot in this story?

 

[ScottM]

So what wound up happening with the violating pilot in this story?

Copycat

 

[EdFred]

Wow. Talk about necromancy.

 

[bobmrg]

As a general rule I want to know everything practical about what someone is
doing or is about to do. I'm not offended by "any traffic in the area please
advise" and hear it a lot including from the commercial operators. I fly out of a
non-towered airport and talking is good as long it's not of the lunch order
variety.

I'm offended by pilots who overlook or ignore the specific statement in the AIM that the phrase should not be used.

Bob Gardner

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So what wound up happening with the violating pilot in this story?

I had to look around for a while to find the story Nick was referencing. It's post #45 by Dave Siciliano.

 

[Henning]

How is "taking the active" an unnecessary frequency-congesting announcement? I definately want to know if someone's on the runway, especially if I were on final! It seems like a more important announcement than "clear of the active".

--Kath

Because it doesn't name the runway. "Podunck traffic Travel Air 04Y taking 33 straight out departure Podunck" would exemplify my typical call. It tells people exactly what for and where to look for me as well as give them a clue as to my performance.

 

[EdFred]

Because it doesn't name the runway. "Podunck traffic Travel Air 04Y taking 33 straight out departure Podunck" would exemplify my typical call. It tells people exactly what for and where to look for me as well as give them a clue as to my performance.

But, if you take it, how am I supposed to use it when it goes with you?

 

[Henning]

But, if you take it, how am I supposed to use it when it goes with you?

Like I care! If I don't take it, where am I supposed to land? Is it my fault you didn't take one with you when you took off?