Older low time A&P wants to get active again

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by bflynn, Apr 17, 2022.

  1. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    An associate at work got his A&P decades ago as a young man. He got bit by the bug as a teen when he did a full strip and rebuild of an Ercoupe under guidance from an older A&P and wants to do things like that again. He never had a lot of experience and moved into other fields, but now (at ~55) wants to get involved again, probably in restorations. He fully recognizes he needs skills and is rusty, but isn’t looking for a new career.

    What does a rational path look like? I recommended EAA and maybe the warbird community, but what other route could he go?
     
  2. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I’d work on OKC for a replacement card right away, ensure he is still appropriately registered with them (anyone can search his name and certificates on the Air…persons Registry.)

    Then, I’d find an active shop and start volunteering.
     
  3. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    Looks like his private is there, but I don’t see mechanic. Does that expire?
     
  4. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    He needs to go to local FSDO and talk to a maintenance ASI to get his certificate valid again.
    No does not expire. The reason its not listed is he didn't apply for his plastic certificate. You cannot exercise your A&P privileges with a paper certificate. He needs to take his paper certificate with him when he goes to the FSDO and see what method the ASI recommends to get his plastic one.
     
  5. Fracpilot

    Fracpilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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  6. Tools

    Tools Line Up and Wait

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    A&Ps are in full demand. His path is what he’s comfortable with!

    Honestly, another good route is a 145 station, as they basically have ways to mentor... his creds will likely just increase his starting pay.

    I’d LOVE to have him. I have a guy who’s 63, he’s great. Doesn’t wanna manage, doesn’t want the headache. Lends a lot of maturity to the floor. He’s the ONLY person in the joint without a “no show,no tell” except me. I’m the second oldest chucklehead in the place. I’m trying to work him over to full time teaching, so gonna need a replacement in the maturity department!
     
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  7. martym

    martym Pre-takeoff checklist

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    He can't exercise A&P privileges until he gets a replacement certificate. Can do that on-line. It's $2. If he still has SSN on certificate, get that removed as well. FAA says 4-6 weeks but you may as well double those numbers. Once he receives the certificate in the mail he can get to work.
     
  8. Tools

    Tools Line Up and Wait

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    I think a temp goes into IACRA quicker than that that could be used to exercise privileges. Or gets emailed or something.

    Also, in a 145 doesn’t even need a A&P.
     
  9. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    FYI: outside of the 145 route, he's still not technically legit per Part 65 to exercise his privileges even with a plastic certificate. As clarified in a previous thread he still needs to get blessed by a FSDO ASI due to the 24 month recent experience clause. Is that particular rule enforced or documented, no. But Murphy can work his way into things. Worst I've seen required by an ASI was to work with an A&P for 6 months. Most get a quickie quiz then are sprinkled with FSDO water and sent on their way. However, given the OP was green when the quit years ago there might be an issue. Who knows. Regardless whether he wants to follow the rules is up to him.
     
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  10. pfarber

    pfarber Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Becuase thats the only currency required. There is no need to retest. You never lose your certificate due to inactivity.

    FAR 65.83 clarifies.
     
  11. Magman

    Magman Line Up and Wait

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    Much of FAR 65 is self enforced and not important.

    Until the hearing!
     
  12. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    While you never lose your certificate, its up to an ASI whether you can exercise those privileges if you do not meet the 24 mo recent experience requirement of 65.83(b). If the ASI wants a test or other similar requirement to determine your mechanical abilities he can request it. Luckily most don't but it has happened. It is what it is.
     
  13. rotormatic1

    rotormatic1 Pre-Flight

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  14. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You shouldn't need to get an ASI or anyone from a FSDO involved with this....nor would I recommend it. Go online and get your paper turned into plastic.

    Then you'll need to work under supervision for 6 months...pick your fav A&P friend to sup you. Then you are cut lose to sign off your work.

    I went thru something similar....cept I had my plastic. It ain't no big deal. Your ticket never expires.
     
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  15. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    Except according to the OP its been decades since he used his AP which make 65.83(b) not applicable. Only section (a) applies if beyond the preceding 24 months. A previous thread brought this point out as well.
     
  16. rotormatic1

    rotormatic1 Pre-Flight

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    B is applicable because of the “or”...
     
  17. rotormatic1

    rotormatic1 Pre-Flight

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  18. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Pattern Altitude

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    re read section B, it says nothing about being supervised, it applies to being a supervisor.
     
  19. rotormatic1

    rotormatic1 Pre-Flight

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    14 CFR 65.83. This language makes clear that a certificated mechanic may not exercise the privileges of his or her certificate unless the Administrator has found that he or she is able to do that work, or, for at least six months, he or she has served as described in paragraph (b).
     
  20. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Bell….the 24 month clock is reset with 6 months of active engagement. That six months has to be supervised.
     
  21. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    Not quite. Section (a) and (b) are qualifiers to the initial statement in 65.83: ... "in the preceding 24 months." So all options in 65.83(b) must have occurred in the preceding 24 months to include "served as a mechanic under his certificate and rating." This only leaves (a).
    Not at all. The 24 month clock precedes the 6 month requirement as shown below. Not the other way around. So if no "active engagement" per (b) in the preceding 24 months, no privilege. Since my retirement I use (b)(4) more than (b)(1) to keep my AP privileges valid just in case... ;)
    upload_2022-4-19_20-2-17.png
     
  22. rotormatic1

    rotormatic1 Pre-Flight

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    Not at all. The 24 month clock precedes the 6 month requirement as shown below.

    Nope...
     
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  23. pfarber

    pfarber Pre-takeoff checklist

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    But (4) states 'any combination'. One or more applies, not all.
     
  24. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    True. But that combination must happen in the preceding 24 months as stated in the opening paragraph of 65.83. If its been more than 24 months since you performed any of that combination of tasks 1-4 its back to only (a). There is no other option. But as I mentioned earlier its rareliy enforced and is more on the person whether they chose to follow it.
     
  25. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    why? where does it say you can't "regain" your recency of experience after 24 months? b(1) with supervision for 6 months resets the clock.

    recall....there is an ";or" at the end of a.

    When I applied for my IA some time ago....the ASI didn't ask or even care about any of this. He wanted to know if I was actively engaged....and the answer was yes. I had taken off for +15 years....non issue.
     
  26. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    That’s the point. Part 65.83(b)(1) doesn’t give the option to work under supervision of another A&P. Paragraph (b)(1) plainly states the A&P holder must have “served as a mechanic under his certificate and rating” for that 6 months and not under the certificate of another mechanic. I had thought the same as well at one time, but was recently reminded again that you must be using your own certificate in those preceding 24 months at stated in the rule.
    “Actively engaged” only applies to IAs as stated in 65.91(c)(2) and not to 65.83. That term in itself caused a bunch of drama and it was enforced for a period of time on a number of IAs.

    But as I’ve said previously, most ASIs don’t ask, don’t care about, or don’t enforce the 65.83 24-month requirement. It falls to the individual if they want to follow the rule. The only A&P holders I personally knew who were violated on 65.83 were pilots who had obtained a B-I-L certificate which got caught up in a separate enforcement action.
     
  27. rotormatic1

    rotormatic1 Pre-Flight

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    The way it works is not being able to exercise the privileges of your certificate, if you haven’t in the last 24 months. You can do the options in paragraph b without returning an aircraft or article to service, (using your privileges) either by working under the supervision of a A&P (who signs off the work), or working at a repair station...
     
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  28. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    This hasta be foreign to some here.....but, that's how I was told to do it.
     
  29. Salty

    Salty Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Out of curiosity how do you document any of those items in b?
     
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  30. rotormatic1

    rotormatic1 Pre-Flight

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    Keep a log...
     
  31. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Pattern Altitude

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    bell is right, where in B does it even say that you can be supervised? lets look at each statement. 1: no, thats why he/she is not current, 2: supervised other mechanics, no that applies to being the supervisor not being supervised. 3: supervised, again that applies to being the supervisor, not being supervised.
     
  32. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The same way any other new "learned" tasks are logged under supervision by someone who knows how to perform that task.
     
  33. Magman

    Magman Line Up and Wait

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    Six months of what? 40 hour week? Once a month?
     
  34. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route

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    To learn (and I read the reg), assuming I work for myself on my own plane, neighbor planes, or out of a van/truck:

    -If I get my A&P cert today, and I don’t touch something for 24 months, I’m not legal to work on an airplane with my cert?

    -I need to service stuff for a 6 month period to keep the 25th month at bay? I note it doesn’t say WITHIN, it says FOR. If so, daily? weekly? Once a month? Oil change? Filling tires? Washing planes?

    I think I’ve figured out a way to get my A&P by retirement. Should start this fall! It’ll take me 5 years though.
     
  35. rotormatic1

    rotormatic1 Pre-Flight

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    The key is exercising your privileges of the certificate. Just working on an aircraft is not exercising your mechanic privileges. You have to sign something off under your A&P.
     
  36. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    In all honesty....this argument is stupid. Most FSDOs won't care. Mine, Baltimore, didn't. I went 15 years of no aviation....then purchased a plane (PA 32-260). I worked on it with "supervision" with my buddy who also had an A&P. After a few years I made an appointment with the FSDO and was approved to take the IA test. Took the IA test and the rest is history. That was over 10 years ago.
     
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  37. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    Agree. But that still doesn't mean an A&P shouldn't know and understand what the rules actually state regardless if the FSDO cares or not.
     
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  38. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Pattern Altitude

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    not entirely true. in a repair station you are exercising your privileges of your certificate but are not signing off an aircraft. the A&P signs the internal work card for the work he/she has done, but some else signs the work order for the aircraft.
     
  39. Magman

    Magman Line Up and Wait

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    I do recall IA’s signing Annual Inspections as “Periodic” LONG after the transition.
     
  40. Vincent Haynes

    Vincent Haynes Filing Flight Plan

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    It doesn't expire unless surrendered or revoked.
     
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