OK, V-Tail- More Wag, or is it a Gag?

SCCutler

SCCutler

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Spike Cutler
In my (endless) airplane shopping, I often see what I consider to be possible opportunities in V-tailed Bonanzas... of which I have flown none.

There is the oft-repeated claim that the V-tail is more prone to tail-wagging, and the sometimes-heard counter that the C33 / F33 do it just as much (or almost as much), and that the wagging is just characteristic of flat-bottomed low-winged airplanes.

So which is it? Any reason why I, a heretofore-dedicated staright-tail Bonanza flyer should not at least consider a V-tailed Variant for Virtuous Velocity?
 
I own a K35 (V-tail) Bonanza. Before that I owned a Grumman Cheetah. Before that I put a couple hundred hours in rented T-tail Turbo Arrows. All three wag their tails in turbulence, the Bo no worse than the other two.

All Bonanzas exhibit some yaw response in turbulence; the 36 series somewhat less so, because of the longer fuselage. The question of whether or not the 35 series oscillates more than the 33 series will be debated long after the Bernoulli/Newton issue is decided to everyone's satisfaction.

All else being equal, a straight-tail 33 series airplane will weigh about 19 pounds more empty than a corresponding V-tail 35-series example. The straight-tail design does give the 33 series a wider allowable CG envelope, and the 36 wider still, but CG is an issue in all Bonanzas.

To learn more about the Bonanza line:

1. Get a copy of Larry A. Ball's Those Incomparable Bonanzas. It has interesting stories about the development of the design, and charts the changes in each model, year-by-year, up through the 1972 models. The sequel volume, They Called Me 'Mr. Bonanza', continues the list of changes from 1972 up to the early '90s.

2. Get Flying the Beech Bonanza by John C. Eckalbar. Excellent summary of handling and performance of the various Bonanza models, including performance parameters not covered in the POH.

3. Join American Bonanza Society, probably the best owners group on the planet. A wealth of maintenance, parts and operational resources are at your fingertips.

Happy hunting!

-- Pilawt
 
Spike,
It's been discussed pretty much to death on the Beech List. The consensus is that the V tail does not 'yaw' more than a conventional tail Bonanza. It is argued that the yaw is more of a corkscrew effect instead of simple wagging.

As mentioned here before, leave your feet on the rudder pedals and the wagging is greatly reduced.

There are some other cool things you can do with the V-tail. Step on a rudder pedal on either side and you can make a coordinated, standard rate turn in either direction.
 
I have flown every model of Bonanza, including those called Debonairs, and would just as soon fly one of them than as anything out there today, the only time that the tails wags on one of them is when the nut behind the wheel is too lazy to fly the airplane the way it should be flown. Keep your feet on the rudder pedals instead of flat on the floor, and they will ride straight and true.

For fast, roomy, stable, economical transportation in a single, you can't do much better than a BO.
 
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I was studying it just last week on a 2 hr trip in a v-tail. When you look at a wing tip, it describes an oval, which is longer in the vertical, shorter in the horizontal view, an estimated 8"x4", depending on turbulence. This was continuous light, typical summery Tx afternoon, with no pilot input; S&L.
Honestly it doesn't bother me, its sort of like what a boat would do. Slightly more noticeable in the rear seats. Certainly wouldn't affect my purchase of these fine a/c.
 
My friends 1976 V35B is one of the nicest GA airplanes I've ever been in. Its like a little, personal airliner.
 
I've flown both and I think the V-tail wags more. Supposedly the "air skeg" STC helps but I haven't flown one with that.
 
If you make it out to CA or even AZ, we can go flying and you can check out the handling characteristics.
 
Flew a '95 A36 for someone for a decade and never noticed a wag or anything else other than the nicest ride in any plane I've flown.

A friend is in a small club with three planes, two of which are V tails. I occasionally fly with him when he wants some instrument currency or knock off some rust. In some turbulent conditions, his plane does yaw some. He rides with his feet on the rudders and says he puts very minor pressure on one then the other to counteract the yaw. I tried it, he's right, it worked. I am talking here of certain conditions like mod. chop, etc. I found the same to work in the Beech Duchess...sometimes it would yaw in turbulence. It took a very light touch on the rudders to neutralize the yaw.

I don't ever fly with my feet off the rudders, in any case. Possibly a habit from teaching for a couple decades, hands off the controls but balls of my feet always barely touching the pedals.

I now co-own an ancient Baron which I like very much. However, the A36 is still the nicest ride I've ever had.
 
Spike:

Where I noticed the difference was in the rear seats with four in the plane; we definitely moved around more than in the back of my 36 (and to ride four in the 36, folks didn't have to be in back; they could be in the middle seats. Up front, didn't notice any difference. Same thing with the B-55 I flew with two up front and three teens in back. With a little rear CG, it makes a noticable difference if not in smooth air.

The 36 and 58 just have a longer body and bigger tail. If the kids can take a little moving around in bumpy air, it normally shouldn't be a big deal. Course, if it gets real bumpy, Momma up front may not like it either.

Lots of folks have V-tail and say it's the same. If you look at the surface area difference in the tail and horizontal stab. area, I just don't see how that can be the case, and, for me, when I rode in back of my nieghbor's V-35 to San Diego and back, there was more yaw; roll in back (like I said, four adults in the plane with some rear CG). Now, I'm comparing to a 55 and 58; not to a C or F-33. Comparing to the straight tail of the same size; it sure could be the same. I don't have rear seat time with four aboard in those models.

Best,

Dave
 
Steve said:
Fuhgidabowt the wag...

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001208X07676&ntsbno=CHI97IA122&akey=1

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001211X09820&ntsbno=CHI98LA125&akey=1
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Tail flutter is almost always the result of improper balance, loose rigging, loose trim tabs, or some combination of the three. Properly maintained, there is no flutter problem well past Vne, repaint your ruddervators without balancing them per the shop manual, add a little looseness in the elevator cables and the tail will shake itself apart in the green arc. Straight tailed Bo's suffer the same fate under the same circumstances as do many other makes.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Spike:

Where I noticed the difference was in the rear seats with four in the plane; we definitely moved around more than in the back of my 36 (and to ride four in the 36, folks didn't have to be in back; they could be in the middle seats. Up front, didn't notice any difference. Same thing with the B-55 I flew with two up front and three teens in back. With a little rear CG, it makes a noticable difference if not in smooth air.

The 36 and 58 just have a longer body and bigger tail. If the kids can take a little moving around in bumpy air, it normally shouldn't be a big deal. Course, if it gets real bumpy, Momma up front may not like it either.

Lots of folks have V-tail and say it's the same. If you look at the surface area difference in the tail and horizontal stab. area, I just don't see how that can be the case, and, for me, when I rode in back of my nieghbor's V-35 to San Diego and back, there was more yaw; roll in back (like I said, four adults in the plane with some rear CG). Now, I'm comparing to a 55 and 58; not to a C or F-33. Comparing to the straight tail of the same size; it sure could be the same. I don't have rear seat time with four aboard in those models.

Best,

Dave
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Yep. IME the V-tails (BE35) and the straight tailed short bodied (BE33) are nearly identical WRT tail wagging. The longer BE36 Bo's are better, the B55s are better yet, and the BE58s are the least affected but they wag too. And like you say, CG does have an impact as does blocking the rudders. And if you really want to cure it, add an active yaw damper. I'm considering adding one to mine. As to the passive dampers (like the Airskeg) I'm told that they make a very small difference, less than what you get from blocking the rudders.
 
lancefisher said:
I'm considering adding one to mine. As to the passive dampers (like the Airskeg) I'm told that they make a very small difference, less than what you get from blocking the rudders.
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What exactly do you mean by blocking the rudders?
 
Put your feet on the rudder pedals and press. Stiffens the rudder a bit and strengthens your calves.
 
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Not flutter related, but there's an S model at the local airport here that has a patch on the ruddervator from skin corrosion repair (owner too cheap to re-skin them i suppose) and the fuselage skin around the forward tail spars is dished from twisting stresses. It has the cuff mod. Some people live charmed lives I guess.

AirBaker said:
Eh, just look for a P,S,or V model 35.
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Fast n' Furious said:
Put your feet on the rudder pedals and press. Stiffens the rudder a bit and strengthens your calves.
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Gotcha, thanks. I thought he was refering to physically blocking them with some sort of gadget, which seemed odd. I don't think a pilot's feet qualify as a gadget, so I suppose a 337 form isn't required.
 
I've also noticed this dutch roll tendency in a Mooney 201 I've flown in. Now I know that Part 23 requires quite a bit of this to be designed out, so I initially thought that this was a result of the 2-axis autopilot which was operating at the time and a good deal of poorly corrected adverse yaw from autopilot aileron inputs to correct for turbulence. This theory seemed to hold credence until I noticed the dutch roll tendency on a PA-28 I was hand flying. I've never noticed it in a high wing aircraft.

Any thoughts?
 
Steve said:
Not flutter related, but there's an S model at the local airport here that has a patch on the ruddervator from skin corrosion repair (owner too cheap to re-skin them i suppose) and the fuselage skin around the forward tail spars is dished from twisting stresses. It has the cuff mod. Some people live charmed lives I guess.
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I've got the mod on my ruddervators. I would be shocked to see any 'flying' Bo without it now.
 
I bought a '66 C33A and flew it home from Denver to Dallas this week. Continuous light chop/turbulence through 9,000 MSL, then smooth at 11,000 MSL. It seemed to handle the bumps about like anything else I've flown. I have a little V Tail time, lots of Travel Air time, lots of Baron time, and now this Debonair time. One time I flew a short hop with six in my A55 Baron on a turbulent day -- just 20 minutes total. By the time we arrived one of the guys in the back had tossed his cookies into the seatback pocket. EEEWWwwwwww. We were near the aft CG limit and it had been yawing noticeably in the bumps!

Check out my trip home from Denver yesterday at http://www.bestaero.com/N9520Q. Today I flew it to the paint shop!
 
its a beauty steve. I did my CFI and Commercial in a C33 Deb. Loved every minute of it.
 
Check out my trip home from Denver yesterday at
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Is that Centennial of Jeffco in the pics? Great looking Bo!
 
Anthony said:
Is that Centennial of Jeffco in the pics?
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It's KAPA. This plane was hangared in the T's near Denver Jet Center East. A woman had owned it there for many years. Very clean, solid, well maintained. For years I've been flying twins, but now with the kids grown and gone and just my wife and I wanting to visit the grandkids more often, this little number should do the trick. I was amazed to be doing 160+ KTAS and burning just 14 gph. With full wings and tips, that's nearly 8 hours endurance! Not that I have 8 hours endurance, but still I can non-stop lots of places where previously I either stopped for fuel enroute or started to sense the "pucker factor" during the last half hour of the flight.

... Steve ...
 
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slwool said:
It's KAPA. This plane was hangared in the T's near Denver Jet Center East. A woman had owned it there for many years. Very clean, solid, well maintained.
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I think I've heard her in the pattern at APA. There can't be too many old ladies flying Bonanzas.
 
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