NorDo enroute

[denverpilot]

no one has mentioned trying to isolate the gen/alt and see if the smoke goes away.

You could experiment with things like Battery only, vs. Alternator...

Incorrect, sir.

 

[denverpilot]

Read Tom's question. No mention of fire, just a smell.

If you're heating up a wire enough to make a smell (because usually the CB is NOT the source of the smell, it's the wiring running to the CB melting its insulation), by definition -- you have something close enough to a fire you'd better be treating it like it's a potential fire.

I've burnt up a lot of electronics in my day on both the workbench and out in the field, and trust me... it's a fire. Maybe your hot wire was encased in some other insulation or tubing that's now also slowly smoldering. You just don't know. Tom's scenario was that the "main" breaker was popping. He removed all loads from that bus by pulling all the other breakers. This means there's a short of the bus bar itself, or a VERY large gauge wire.

Arc welding things in the cockpit and then flying for an hour plus, is not approved. It really is time to get out of the airplane if you had smoke in the cockpit and it ties back to a main bus short.

 

[ronnieh]

Denver, there was no mention of smoke. Yes smoke is a different story. If smoke continues a VERY different story. Breakers do smell. Had a prop de ice breaker go bad once. It would hold for a few minutes then pop. I really needed that breaker to work at that time. I let it cool and reset it several times during that flight to keep some ice off the blades untill I could get out of the ice. It smelled quite bad but was not producing any smoke. Do I recommend this, of course not but, at that moment the ice build up was important. I am only referring to Tom's specific question. What he described is not an emergency in the type aircraft he is describing.

 

[denverpilot]

Denver, there was no mention of smoke. Yes smoke is a different story. If smoke continues a VERY different story. Breakers do smell. Had a prop de ice breaker go bad once. It would hold for a few minutes then pop. I really needed that breaker to work at that time. I let it cool and reset it several times during that flight to keep some ice off the blades untill I could get out of the ice. It smelled quite bad but was not producing any smoke. Do I recommend this, of course not but, at that moment the ice build up was important. I am only referring to Tom's specific question. What he described is not an emergency in the type aircraft he is describing.

What you're smelling is outgassing of something from intense localized heat. Whether you call it "smoke" or not, it up to you.

I understand what you're saying about there being different levels of overheating and smells, but those smells are "smoke", even in small quantity. You're burning something, even if that burning is very small and localized. There's a chemical reaction going on at least, that's not a good one to have in an aircraft.

I completely agree with your specific situation... the smell was secondary to needing to get ice off the airframe, since the ice would definitely kill you, and the smoke only might kill you.

 

[Mike I]

Anyone with Foreflight can in about three pokes of a finger. +1

I initially thought that was the case, then was unable to track down tower phone numbers in ForeFlight. Checking for JFK yields only Noise Restriction and GA Port Authority numbers in the AFD, in addition to ASOS and ATIS numbers. KSFO is similar, as is KLAS and many other Class B's that I look for. Denverpilot, if you know of a way in ForeFlight that neither I or Wingsofglass don't know of, we'd be eager to hear. For many airports, you can find numbers for Noise Abatement etc that are available during business hours, but no direct tower numbers that I see.

 

[denverpilot]

In your JFK example, I'm sure if you rang up Port Authority and told them you're comin' they'd figure out how to call the tower!!! (GRIN!) But if you're going into JFK NORDO VFR, you're probably a bit nuts.

But hey yeah, you're right... it's not actually the tower frequency that's listed on the "Airports -> More -> Contacts" page. Tower phone numbers are one of the best kept secrets in aviation.

 

[Mike I]

Denverpilot, I wouldn't want to go NORDO into JFK! But if I truly needed to...

Also, I found the tower numbers not on AirNav, where I expected they might be listed, but on AcuKwik which is new to me. KJFK for example: http://www.acukwik.com/AirportInfo/KJFK . Tower number listed plainly. Would be great to see ForeFlight integrate that information into their More -> Contacts page, or just list it at the bottom of the Frequencies -> Tower section as other phone numbers are listed under FSS and Weather in that section.

 

[somorris]

Tower phone numbers are one of the best kept secrets in aviation.

I can't remember where I got it, but I have a small phone book in my flight bag. It has all the tower numbers and a lot of other handy numbers. I don't have it with me, but it is called a Pilot's Cell Phone guide or something like that. I used it one time at a Class D to call the tower to request departure when my radio quit working. Handy little book. I wish I could get an updated one. Mine is a few years old. The print is a little small to use if you are bouncing around in flight, but it could be done.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Tower phone numbers:

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

No to going into CBA nordo unless there is a serious threat to the airplane or lives aboard, not an odor of burning which has been controlled. There is almost always an alternative.
If you have an onboard fire you are not going to wait for any airport, either in most our light a/c.

 

[gkainz]

AOPA airport directory downloadable to smart phones - my blechberry just barely qualifies as a smart phone any more, but phone numbers are just a couple of button pushes away and then dials with one more click.

 

[Palmpilot]

Your cruising along at altitude and you get a wiff of burning electrical stuff, you see and hear the Main circuit breaker pop, all goes dead.

you turn the master off and no more stink, you re-set the main C/B, and pull all others, then you turn on the master, you get another wiff, and the main C/B pops again. you turn off the master. You are flying a black aircraft, its running OK, and the nearest airport is in class "B" airspace.

what would you do?

Laying aside the improbability of finding a class B airport without a nearby airport outside the B, as noted earlier in the thread, we have this:

§ 91.7 Civil aircraft airworthiness.

(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.
(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur. [emphasis added]
​

This reg prompted me to inquire on the Red Board about the definition of "airworthiness," and quite a discussion ensued:

http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=60758

The consensus seemed to be that it means the aircraft conforms to its type design as detailed in the type certificate and any STCs, etc. that apply, and is in a condition for safe operation.

As you know, your earlier thread on a related subject prompted considerable discussion about how far one is allowed to fly before discontinuing the flight:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41307

 

[Doggtyred]

I agree with those who say NORDO is not an emergency, but when the smell of burning goes away too, do you still have an emergency?

What constitutes an emergency depends on the pilot. I lost electrical once on a XC. No fire. Was on flight following. No handheld. I continued 100 miles in day VFR to my based field.

Had it been at night? Landed at a well lit field, tower or not. Or had I smelled smoke AT ALL. I'd have put it down ricky tick.....

 

[Tom-D]

Laying aside the improbability of finding a class B airport without a nearby airport outside the B, as noted earlier in the thread, we have this:

§ 91.7 Civil aircraft airworthiness.

(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.
(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur. [emphasis added]
​

This reg prompted me to inquire on the Red Board about the definition of "airworthiness," and quite a discussion ensued:

http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=60758

The consensus seemed to be that it means the aircraft conforms to its type design as detailed in the type certificate and any STCs, etc. that apply, and is in a condition for safe operation.

As you know, your earlier thread on a related subject prompted considerable discussion about how far one is allowed to fly before discontinuing the flight:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41307

So with all that in mind, would you fly past the near airport?

 

[Tom-D]

Laying aside the improbability of finding a class B airport without a nearby airport outside the B, as noted earlier in the thread, we have this:

§ 91.7 Civil aircraft airworthiness.

(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.
(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur. [emphasis added]
​

This reg prompted me to inquire on the Red Board about the definition of "airworthiness," and quite a discussion ensued:

http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=60758

I no longer have a log in there.

The consensus seemed to be that it means the aircraft conforms to its type design as detailed in the type certificate and any STCs, etc. that apply, and is in a condition for safe operation.

The proper wording "the aircraft conforms to its type design or it's properly altered condition and is a condition for safe flight".

As you know, your earlier thread on a related subject prompted considerable discussion about how far one is allowed to fly before discontinuing the flight:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41307

If you would like the training aid used by the FAA at the IA refresher training I have it as a Power point file, you may have it by sending your e-mail address in a PM.

It leaves no doubt as to what airworthiness really is.

 

[gismo]

Your cruising along at altitude and you get a wiff of burning electrical stuff, you see and hear the Main circuit breaker pop, all goes dead.

you turn the master off and no more stink, you re-set the main C/B, and pull all others, then you turn on the master, you get another wiff, and the main C/B pops again. you turn off the master. You are flying a black aircraft, its running OK, and the nearest airport is in class "B" airspace.

what would you do?

If the main CB popped I don't think that resetting it while still airborne would be wise, I'd much rather be nordo than on fire. In addition, there's no "main CB" in my airplane although there are CBs for each alternator.

In any case, in my airplane I have two options for navigating and communicating with the master off so my version of your scenario would simply have me using one of those.

As to the nearest airport in Class B, I can't imagine why that would matter. Assuming you haven't started a fire in the cockpit landing at the very nearest airport wouldn't be a high priority and virtually all Class B airports have non-class B airports close by.

 

[sba55]

What constitutes an emergency depends on the pilot. I lost electrical once on a XC. No fire. Was on flight following. No handheld. I continued 100 miles in day VFR to my based field.

Had it been at night? Landed at a well lit field, tower or not. Or had I smelled smoke AT ALL. I'd have put it down ricky tick.....

Yes. Exactly. Anything that in my opinion - and as the pilot I am the final authority on safety of flight issues - threatens the safety of my flight constitutes an emergency. Maybe it's just that I feel overwhelmed by something that has gone wrong - that's a valid reason to declare an emergency as well, since the safety of my flight certainly is threatened if I'm panicked.

You can't categorically say that something does or doesn't constitute an emergency. There's too many variables. I wouldn't call a total electrical failure in VMC at night an emergency now, but when I only had 80 hours, I probably would and in fact I did. It's much better to declare emergencies when you have any doubt about whether or not a situation constitutes an emergency than to hesitate and get into trouble later.

I spoke with someone at Norcal Tracon about this last year when I visited. They are very adamant that they would MUCH rather have someone declare an emergency in case there is some sort of danger since it makes it easier for them to react.

 

[zmerc]

NORDO is not an emergency. A total electrical system failure day VFR wouldn't qualify as one either.

Of course, if there was an uncontrolled airport nearby and you chose to land at the class B, there would be some question as to your judgement.

Of course if you have a cellphone handy and can read the tiny print of the airport directory, and have the time for all of this, you can give the tower supervisor a call before you land and declare the emergency with him. You'll be giving him a call afterwards anyway.

If you were previously talking to ATC before you lost radios, it IS an emergency. ATC must maintain communications and report any simultanious loss of communications/radar. Search and Rescue will commence then. Upon landing at the Class B airport, yes, you will talk to the Tower supervisor who will be glad that you are on the ground safely.

 

[kkoran]

If you were previously talking to ATC before you lost radios, it IS an emergency. ATC must maintain communications and report any simultanious loss of communications/radar. Search and Rescue will commence then. Upon landing at the Class B airport, yes, you will talk to the Tower supervisor who will be glad that you are on the ground safely.

Just because it may be an emergency for ATC, it's not necessarily an emergency for the pilot.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I would try to call tower at class B from my cell phone and tell them what's going on and my intentions. Chances to get cellular signal around class B airspace are pretty high.

You most likely won't get *usable* signal around a class B unless you're less than 200 AGL, as your phone will try to talk to several towers at once and won't work. It'll say it has great signal, but you won't get anything out of it except maybe an SMS.

If you were to land at a class B or any controlled field you are creating problems for yourself. Yes you can claim an emergency but you will have to document the emergency.

Really? What sort of problems?

If you go be bopping into class B you are creating problems for a lot of other people and creating a dangerous situation for others and your self for no reason.

No reason? How about "I might be on fire?" That's more dangerous than bopping into class B...

91.131 says you're not going to the Class B anymore.

91.3(b) says that I don't give a crap what 91.131 says.

Anyone with Foreflight can in about three pokes of a finger. +1

Huh?

I can't remember where I got it, but I have a small phone book in my flight bag. It has all the tower numbers and a lot of other handy numbers. I don't have it with me, but it is called a Pilot's Cell Phone guide or something like that.

The Cellular Pilot. Used to see it for sale at airports all over the place.

You can't categorically say that something does or doesn't constitute an emergency. There's too many variables. I wouldn't call a total electrical failure in VMC at night an emergency now, but when I only had 80 hours, I probably would and in fact I did. It's much better to declare emergencies when you have any doubt about whether or not a situation constitutes an emergency than to hesitate and get into trouble later.

I would suggest that Ronnie et al read this - Take that back, EVERY pilot should read this:

I Ain't Declaring No Steenkin' Emergency

So, with that in mind... The fact that I can't smell the smoke any more means I *will* land at the class B, instead of putting it down on the field/road/parking lot directly beneath me. You play with fire, you get burned, and where there's smoke there's fire.

For those who say the situation is unrealistic, I was about to agree - But upon further review, I go down the Chicago lakeshore all the time, and from the temple to Evanston, ORD is in fact the nearest airport. (Before that it's PWK, after it's MDW - And either of those is likely to cause a fairly major disruption as well.)

 

[Palmpilot]

Just because it may be an emergency for ATC, it's not necessarily an emergency for the pilot.

Also, AIM 6-4-1b says that whether lost comm is an emergency or not is a determination made by the pilot.

 

[Tom-D]

You most likely won't get *usable* signal around a class B unless you're less than 200 AGL, as your phone will try to talk to several towers at once and won't work. It'll say it has great signal, but you won't get anything out of it except maybe an SMS.

My flip phone will work at 2500' with 4 cell towers in view........ problem is, I can't hear it with the engine running.

 

[Arbiter419]

I would suggest that Ronnie et al read this - Take that back, EVERY pilot should read this:

I Ain't Declaring No Steenkin' Emergency

So, with that in mind... The fact that I can't smell the smoke any more means I *will* land at the class B, instead of putting it down on the field/road/parking lot directly beneath me. You play with fire, you get burned, and where there's smoke there's fire.

For those who say the situation is unrealistic, I was about to agree - But upon further review, I go down the Chicago lakeshore all the time, and from the temple to Evanston, ORD is in fact the nearest airport. (Before that it's PWK, after it's MDW - And either of those is likely to cause a fairly major disruption as well.)

Just read that...GREAT article. He's not kidding, every pilot should read this.

 

[bluesky74656]

You most likely won't get *usable* signal around a class B unless you're less than 200 AGL, as your phone will try to talk to several towers at once and won't work. It'll say it has great signal, but you won't get anything out of it except maybe an SMS.

On the way home from the FlyBQ my fiancée was texting from 4500. I've gotten data at 5500 before. I think this is one of the many things that may be better for Verizon than ATT. Next time both of us are up I'll try to have Amy compare my Droid and her iPhone.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

My flip phone will work at 2500' with 4 cell towers in view........ problem is, I can't hear it with the engine running.

The most basic cell pattern uses 7 repeating cells and isn't very common in cities because some of the cells would be covering too many people for the number of frequencies available and you'd get "network unavailable" a lot. So because you can see 4 towers is fairly meaningless.

On the way home from the FlyBQ my fiancée was texting from 4500. I've gotten data at 5500 before. I think this is one of the many things that may be better for Verizon than ATT. Next time both of us are up I'll try to have Amy compare my Droid and her iPhone.

Texts will usually work, though maybe not as fast as they do on the ground. Data *might* work. Voice will almost certainly not work, regardless of how many bars your phone shows (and it'll most likely show full bars at the low altitudes we fly at).

The principles are largely the same no matter whose network you're on. I've been a VZ subscriber as well since being a pilot. I've never managed to complete a call in the air. Texts, tons. GOOD data service at 5500 feet? Only had that work on the way up to 6Y9 where you can't see anything but trees. I was able to get radar on ForeFlight on the way to Gaston's last year at 2500 MSL over MO, until I got near I-44 and then it wouldn't work again... Too many towers in view.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Just read that...GREAT article. He's not kidding, every pilot should read this.

Yeah, there's a reason that one made an impression on me. Despite knowing that there isn't really any paperwork involved in an emergency, there have been times where I could have declared that I didn't. Y'know, didn't want to inconvenience anyone...

But after that article, I don't worry about inconveniencing anyone. Luckily, I've had no reason to declare since anyway.

 

[ronnieh]

Look guys, read the question. If he had a smell of fuel, if he had smoke, if he had flames, rough running engine, low fuel, and the list goes on then yes I would put it down at the first opportunity. If you go "be bopping" into class B airport without permission it had better be an emergency. You have deviated from FAR's. If it is a bonafied emergency, it will be no big deal if you do not interfere with another aircraft. In the example there was no deviation she asked for and got permission to return to the field, end of story. Landing at a class B airport without permission is a deveation, if another plane has to take evasive action because of your landing that is another deviation. All I am saying is in this SPECIFIC situation I would not want to justify the deviations based on this exact situation. This is just my oppinion and is the way I would handle this situation. I have lost an engine on a twin three different times. I landed once at a controlled field and twice at an uncontrolled field. It was day VFR all three times and at altitude. What advantage would I get from declaring an emergency especially when it was not. Gosh, I am sorry I ruffled feathers. I don't really give a rat's azz as long as you don't cause me to have to dodge you when the only problem is you could not talk on the radio. I get enough of that at uncontrolled fields.

 

[slacktide]

Your cruising along at altitude and you get a wiff of burning electrical stuff, you see and hear the Main circuit breaker pop, all goes dead.

you turn the master off and no more stink, you re-set the main C/B, and pull all others, then you turn on the master, you get another wiff, and the main C/B pops again. you turn off the master. You are flying a black aircraft, its running OK, and the nearest airport is in class "B" airspace.

what would you do?

I'd get my plane re-painted. Black is a TERRIBLE color for airplanes.