No Nose Gear Indication on ILS Approach - What would you do?

[Fearless Tower]

Okay, after over 300 hrs in retracts, this actually happened to me yesterday returning to San Diego from PHX in a Duchess. Everything worked out and resulted in a safe landing, but my natural instinct is to review my actions and try to see if there are any lessons to be learned, so I thought I'd post this here.

I was on the ILS 28R to MYF, had been handed over to Tower and approaching the FAF. I had selected gear down and called out my landing checklist:

"Landing Gear? Down and locked, three greens......wait WTF....only 2 Greens!"

No nose gear indication. First thought was that it was a burned out bulb. So I press to test and sure enough, the nose wheel light works fine, so there is definitely a problem. Damn. I continue on the ILS and attempt to recycle the gear - no joy, still no nose gear indication. Better tell Tower what's up.

Now I am on an IFR flight plan, but the weather in San Diego is clear, VMC. I explain to Tower my situation, request a low approach and ask the tower to take a look and tell me what they see. Because it was VMC, I decided that I would cancel IFR and told tower that I would stay in the pattern while re-assessing the situation. This is where I am thinking I may have made a bad decision, but I'll get to that later.

I cycle the gear one last time on short final and I finally get my three greens. I make a slow low pass down the runway and Tower confirms that all three wheels are down and I then fly a normal pattern and make a nice slow touchdown, hold the nose off just as much as possible and then gently set it down and exit the runway - no problems.

Now, while everything worked out, in retrospect, I am starting to think that my decision to cancel IFR and stay in the pattern was a mistake. Had I not been able to get the nose wheel light on that last attempt, I would have been trying to further troubleshoot the gear (emergency gear extension/zooming) while flying in the pattern, single pilot, in an airplane with no working autopilot. In retrospect, the best strategy might have been to fly the low approach and if I still couldn't get the gear indication, go missed and ask SoCal for a fix/block altitude away from traffic where I do further troubleshooting before attempting to land.

Any thoughts? Would anyone do something different?

 

[Everskyward]

Any thoughts? Would anyone do something different?

If you say the weather was clear then why would you have needed to stay in the pattern? If you needed more time you could have asked tower to hand you back to approach for flight following and gone somewhere to maneuver or you could have maneuvered on your own clear of Class B. I'm not familiar with the airspace down there so I'm not sure what would have been possible.

 

[Fearless Tower]

or you could have maneuvered on your own clear of Class B. I'm not familiar with the airspace down there so I'm not sure what would have been possible.

That is exactly the problem - MYF is nestled between the SAN B surface area immediately to the south and Mirimar MCAS immediately to the north and other things like SEE Class D to the east and some low mountains here and there. It is a very busy piece of airspace.

 

[poadeleted20]

You did fine, although I don't think canceling IFR was necessary. With that weather, staying in the pattern while you cycled the gear made sense. If that didn't work, then departing the pattern to a holding area while you ran through the EP checklist would have made sense, but just retracting the gear and flying a closed pattern to put it down once more was perfectly fine.

 

[sba55]

IFR or VFR has nothing to do with it, though. You could have asked them to vector you somewhere with some space to troubleshoot - IFR or VFR. A gear failure certainly qualifies as an emergency anyways, so I very highly doubt they would not have accommodated whatever you asked for.

 

[Everskyward]

That is exactly the problem - MYF is nestled between the SAN B surface area immediately to the south and Mirimar MCAS immediately to the north and other things like SEE Class D to the east and some low mountains here and there. It is a very busy piece of airspace.

Still you could have gone back to SoCal Approach and asked them to suggest an area in which to maneuver. If you had still been IFR they would have needed to do the same thing.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Still you could have gone back to SoCal Approach and asked them to suggest an area in which to maneuver. If you had still been IFR they would have needed to do the same thing.

I agree, I was just thinking that maintaining IFR would have made the handoff a bit easier if I had needed to go back to SoCal.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Also, asking the tower to take a look really doesn't tell you anything other than if the gear is in the well or some other position. It will by no means tell you if it is locked.

 

[COFlyBoy]

Also, asking the tower to take a look really doesn't tell you anything other than if the gear is in the well or some other position. It will by no means tell you if it is locked.

I've often wondered why pilots always do a pass for the tower to check the nosegear. Fearless landed it right regardless of whether the nosewheel was up or down.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm sure he knew that the visual inspection wouldn't tell if it was locked. Just more info than you can get from the cockpit.

I think he should have done an overhead break to try to fling the gear down.

 

[Everskyward]

I've often wondered why pilots always do a pass for the tower to check the nosegear.

While they can't tell you if the nosegear is locked, they can definitely tell you if it does not look fully extended. That way you know whether you have some chance of a normal landing or no chance.

 

[denverpilot]

Or whether you'll be looking at the runway from the usual height, or you'll be a couple feet lower, and hearing metallic scraping noises.

 

[TMetzinger]

I think you did fine, and that you're asking yourself the right questions. I don't think the Tower would have had any issues getting you over to approach, VFR or IFR, if you needed any help.

Greg's right that a tower can only provide confirmation that gear doesn't appear down. But that can still be useful. And taking your gear emergency to a bigger airport can be a big choice. They've got the equipment to be right there if something goes wrong on landing.

 

[denverpilot]

Heh heh... one of the clauses I posted in the insurance thread I just started seems to apply:

"Reimbursement of emergency expenses. We will reimburse you for expenses incurred for the use of foam on a runway or your aircraft, or for fire, crash control and rescue. But we won’t pay more than $10,000 in any one occurrence."

 

[Fearless Tower]

While they can't tell you if the nosegear is locked, they can definitely tell you if it does not look fully extended. That way you know whether you have some chance of a normal landing or no chance.

Exactly why I asked.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I think he should have done an overhead break to try to fling the gear down.

Aw man....you mean I could have asked for an OB???

Believe it or not, 'zooming', ie diving and then pitching up to fling the gear out is outlined as an emergency gear extension procedure in several aircraft.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

While they can't tell you if the nosegear is locked, they can definitely tell you if it does not look fully extended. That way you know whether you have some chance of a normal landing or no chance.

Well, IMO, either way, you have to plan it like it isn't locked.

 

[COFlyBoy]

Exactly why I asked.

Yeah but, you would have landed it the same way regardless of what the tower told you. Guess it probably gives you a warm fuzzy though.

As far as cancelling IFR, I don't think it really mattered one way or the other, so long as ATC is aware you've got problems.

 

[denverpilot]

Aw man....you mean I could have asked for an OB???

Believe it or not, 'zooming', ie diving and then pitching up to fling the gear out is outlined as an emergency gear extension procedure in several aircraft.

Heh, yeah, I knew that... I was thinking about that thread where folks dug out the fact that an OB was something a Tower could authorize as an IFR maneuver, and I just applied my newfound knowledge!

Now I know what the IFR OB is for!

 

[Everskyward]

Well, IMO, either way, you have to plan it like it isn't locked.

True, but I have been in both situations and it's a far different feeling when you are sure what's going to happen.

 

[Ted]

I don't think it was necessary to cancel IFR.

If this was an approach in actual (similar to your question about staying in the pattern), I would say you probably should do is inform ATC and say that you'd like to get vectors and fly around for a bit to troubleshoot the problem. Trying to fly an ILS in actual single pilot while also diagnosing a landing gear issue is a lot to do, similar to troubleshooting in the pattern (actually, harder I'd say).

Something else here comes down to knowing your aircraft. In the Aztec, it's not uncommon for the nose gear light to not come on after the handle has snapped back to neutral (hydraulic gear), but it will typically come on about 5-30 seconds later. So in that case, I'll just leave it and check it back again. The 310 will sometimes have a left main not come on, and that requires a cycle of the gear. If it's an airplane I know and a symptom I know, then I might be more inclined to try what's worked before (assuming I have the mental capacity to do so), and if that didn't work, I can always execute the published missed.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm pretty sure Ted just explained why no one is lending on light twins anymore.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I'm pretty sure Ted just explained why no one is lending on light twins anymore.

Sad thing was that this particular rental I was flying is such a POS, that I briefly considered landing it anyway without trying to cycle the gear.....thought it might be a good way to get the plane out of the club!

Then I thought of all the paperwork I'd have to do and figured that if I landed it gear up without even attempting to troubleshoot, it might not look too good!

 

[HPNPilot1200]

I would say you probably should do is inform ATC and say that you'd like to get vectors and fly around for a bit to troubleshoot the problem.

Agreed. If I have some sort of gear problem on the approach I prefer to ask for delay vectors and fly at a safe altitude in level flight while I troubleshoot the issue.

My 727 sim instructor used to give us this scenario when we were flying the box and would ask us what we should do. I spoke with my crew and we determined delay vectors would be the best option for us which was the answer he was looking for. He later told us (surprisingly) some students in the past had asked ATC for holding instructions. Why complicate things when you have a problem to deal with? Just ask for some delay vectors as you work the checklist.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Agreed. If I have some sort of gear problem on the approach I prefer to ask for delay vectors and fly at a safe altitude in level flight while I troubleshoot the issue.

My 727 sim instructor used to give us this scenario when we were flying the box and would ask us what we should do. I spoke with my crew and we determined delay vectors would be the best option for us which was the answer he was looking for. He later told us (surprisingly) some students in the past had asked ATC for holding instructions. Why complicate things when you have a problem to deal with? Just ask for some delay vectors as you work the checklist.

While I agree with that thinking, in this particular scenario, SoCal had cleared me for the approach and handed me over to Tower well before I lowered the gear, so the problem didn't develop until after I checked in with the Tower. The extent of my troubleshooting on the ILS was simply raising the gear lever and lowering it again. I wasn't about to try and mess with the emergency gear extension while flying the ILS.

 

[denverpilot]

My 727 sim instructor used to give us this scenario when we were flying the box and would ask us what we should do. I spoke with my crew and we determined delay vectors would be the best option for us which was the answer he was looking for. He later told us (surprisingly) some students in the past had asked ATC for holding instructions. Why complicate things when you have a problem to deal with? Just ask for some delay vectors as you work the checklist.

Its an interesting problem. Eastern 401 (L-1011) did the delay vector thing, didn't put someone in charge of watching the altimeter over the Everglades, and crashed killing a lot of folks. The light bulb was the culprit, and the nose-gear was down and locked.

Work the checklist, but also fly the plane.

The above accident was at night. If the scenario was night, would anyone change their answer to this? I'm just curious.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The above accident was at night. If the scenario was night, would anyone change their answer to this? I'm just curious.

If it had been at night or IMC in the vicinity, I wouldn't have even considered cancelling IFR in the first place. I would have told tower I was going to do a low approach go missed and then go back to SoCal. I'd then 'splain the situation to SoCal and ask for a block altitude and a general fix to remain in the vicinity or delay vectors while messing with the gear. And then, if the emergency extension/zooming didn't produce the desired result, I'd declare an emergency and bring it in.

 

[TMetzinger]

If it had been at night or IMC in the vicinity, I wouldn't have even considered cancelling IFR in the first place. I would have told tower I was going to do a low approach go missed and then go back to SoCal. I'd then 'splain the situation to SoCal and ask for a block altitude and a general fix to remain in the vicinity or delay vectors while messing with the gear. And then, if the emergency extension/zooming didn't produce the desired result, I'd declare an emergency and bring it in.

Exactly.

 

[Skylane81E]

Aw man....you mean I could have asked for an OB???

Believe it or not, 'zooming', ie diving and then pitching up to fling the gear out is outlined as an emergency gear extension procedure in several aircraft.

Works too, ask me how I know

Sounds like you did perfectly to me.

For future refference IIRC the dutches has the round lights that you can press to test and turn to dim. If that's the case some times the lamp is just a little loose and will light when pressed but is too loose for proper connection under normal operation. Used to be fairly common when we had the 172RG in our fleet as people would slightly unscrew it from time to time while adjusting the brightness. We therefore taught the added step of making sure the light was twisted in tight when the green failed to light.