"No delay"

I could already be flying in ground effect at 40 knots if I really tried...barely...
 
Plowed the turn, wasn't so much the speed as the acceleration. ;)
 
Would a hard left brake have helped take the pressure off the nose wheel? :dunno:

Works on tractors. ;)
 
Assuming this was somewhere in the U.S. (which, I know is a bold assumption) I'd think one of our well trained and capable T.S.A. members would see this and wonder how the camera man miraculously moved from behind the fence to in front of it.

I see a billion dollar investigation in our future. ( As the T.S.A. probably doesn't understand what a gate is. )
 
timwinters said:
Assuming this was somewhere in the U.S. (which, I know is a bold assumption) I'd think one of our well trained and capable T.S.A. members would see this and wonder how the camera man miraculously moved from behind the fence to in front of it.

I see a billion dollar investigation in our future. ( As the T.S.A. probably doesn't understand what a gate is. )
Click to expand...

It's at ORF. I've stood right where that camera man is several times. It's nice, but very very small, cell phone waiting lot. He was behind the fence the whole time.

That was an interesting choice, airmanship wise. I echo Greg's surprise in that he didn't blow the tires, but he damn sure must have some cord showing after that.
 
Teller1900 said:
It's at ORF. I've stood right where that camera man is several times. It's nice, but very very small, cell phone waiting lot. He was behind the fence the whole time.

That was an interesting choice, airmanship wise. I echo Greg's surprise in that he didn't blow the tires, but he damn sure must have some cord showing after that.
Click to expand...

So you guys are saying the nose tires are toast right? What happens when the marshaller sees them? Is he getting called to the carpet?
 
Henning said:
So you guys are saying the nose tires are toast right? What happens when the marshaller sees them? Is he getting called to the carpet?
Click to expand...
Gee- it must have been sitting right on the bad spots when we preflighted. Good thing you saw it when we came in!;)
 
Henning said:
So you guys are saying the nose tires are toast right? What happens when the marshaller sees them? Is he getting called to the carpet?
Click to expand...

I can't say for certain that the tires ARE toast. There was an awful lot of smoke. If they AREN'T toast, they sure got a lot of landings scrubbed off of them.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I can't say for certain that the tires ARE toast. There was an awful lot of smoke. If they AREN'T toast, they sure got a lot of landings scrubbed off of them.
Click to expand...

The nose tires were still spinning, so probably no flat spots, but the right side of those tires are going to be a lot thinner than the left.

Doing maintenance in the club I'm in, I've seen evidence of "turning too fast" on nose tires where the scuff marks go way up the sidewall. Although there was one instance where the nose tire must have stopped spinning and there was a flat spot on the sidewall.

--Carlos V.
 
Unbeliever said:
Understeer. The nose tire pushed. "Tight" in NASCAR parlance.

--Carlos V.
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure sir, watch that again, that tire was folding over center plowing its way around the turn tail first at the worst from the way it looks to me. He had to get out of the throttle to stop the turning. I would concur with those who believe this left obvious marks in the tire. Remember tricycle geometry is not altogether stable. Ride an old Honda ATC 90.
 
If it were oversteer, the rear wheels would be the ones skidding and the tail sliding out. Front wheel started plowing as soon as throttle up added tons of lateral force on a tightly turned front wheel set. It didn't help that he added "Go" throttle at the start of the tight turn. Also doesn't help that airplanes have nowhere near a 50/50 weight distribution. More like 15/85. The nose gear is lightly loaded and just keeps the nose from dragging on the ground.

Edit: This what is called a "power understeer" in the car world. How do you correct it? Get off the power and put weight back on the nose, reduce steering input until the fronts re-catch, and then resume normal steering to correct your line.

Understeer: Not enough yaw rate for the turn. Cause of lack of yaw: front wheels skid as they lose traction, reducing the yaw rate. No such thing as a rear wheel skid understeer.

Oversteer: Too much yaw rate for the turn. Cause of the over-yawing: Rear wheels let loose and rear end goes around. No such thing as a front wheel skid oversteer.

--Carlos V.
 
Last edited:
Unbeliever said:
Oversteer: Too much yaw rate for the turn. Cause of the over-yawing: Rear wheels let loose and rear end goes around. No such thing as a front wheel skid oversteer.

--Carlos V.
Click to expand...

:rofl::rofl::rofl: You sir are obviously not familiar with the concept of a 'high side' crash.:lol::lol: Watch the angle of the front wheel and vectors of acceleration until he backs out of the power. There's 2 things going on there since the tire is running sideways/backwards until he backs out, he doesn't/can't <:dunno:> get the nose wheel straight.
 
Henning said:
:rofl::rofl::rofl: You sir are obviously not familiar with the concept of a 'high side' crash.:lol::lol:
Click to expand...

Yes I am. Long time motorcyclist, taken a few Reg Pridmore[1] lessons. A high-side is an oversteer phenomenon where the rear breaks loose, comes around, and then re-gains traction suddenly, making the front and back come in line violently, throwing the rider up and over.

Watch the angle of the front wheel and vectors of acceleration until he backs out of the power.
Click to expand...
Keep in mind, there's only so fast the pilot can operate the tiller. He probably overshot the turn because the tiller was slow.

But if you go to a track car guy and say that you had a front wheel skid oversteer, you're going to get laughed at.

http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Understeer
http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Oversteer

--Carlos V.

[1] He had a really nicely set up Globe Swift at his Santa Paula hangar that he had until a few years ago when he sold it.
 
Last edited:
Unbeliever said:
Yes I am. Long time motorcyclist, taken a few Reg Pridmore[1] lessons. A high-side is an oversteer phenomenon where the rear breaks loose, comes around, and then re-gains traction suddenly, making the front and back come in line violently, throwing the rider up and over.

Keep in mind, there's only so fast the pilot can operate the tiller. He probably overshot the turn because the tiller was slow.

But if you go to a track car guy and say that you had a front wheel skid oversteer, you're going to get laughed at.

http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Understeer
http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Oversteer

--Carlos V.

[1] He had a really nicely set up Globe Swift at his Santa Paula hangar that he had until a few years ago when he sold it.
Click to expand...

Here's the difference, the jet isn't propelling from the back wheels, it's force vector is straight line thrust. Most nose gear systems have an 'over torque' break over to protect against tug damage.
 
Henning said:
:rofl::rofl::rofl: You sir are obviously not familiar with the concept of a 'high side' crash.:lol::lol: Watch the angle of the front wheel and vectors of acceleration until he backs out of the power. There's 2 things going on there since the tire is running sideways/backwards until he backs out, he doesn't/can't <:dunno:> get the nose wheel straight.
Click to expand...

A "high side" crash is with motorcycles, not airplanes.

The nose wheels are turned at a tighter radius than the plane is tracking, therefore it is an understeer (tight) situation. As near as I can tell from the video, the nose wheels did not turn more than 90 degrees (is it even possible?), so they're not turning backwards. If they were, the wheels would be lined up for a right turn.

Power was added too soon and the nose wheels didn't have enough traction to complete the turn. The wheels were turned even more making the situation worse.
 
Henning said:
Here's the difference, the jet isn't propelling from the back wheels, it's force vector is straight line thrust.
Click to expand...

But to the front wheels, it doesn't matter where the thrust is coming from. It looks the same. It's still a power understeer. I like when it rains here and there's enough room in a parking lot for me to turn off the stability control in my S2000 and I play with traction. Never had a front wheel skid oversteer, and never had a rear wheel skid understeer.

Most nose gear systems have an 'over torque' break over to protect against tug damage.
Click to expand...
You're just supporting my "why he overshot the turn and had to back off" theory. Slow tiller, either because of protection systems, or slow response.

Demonstrate where someone had a front wheel skid oversteer, and I'll listen again.

Edit: Speaking of S2000s, there is an oversteer condition started by front wheel skid, but caused by rear wheel skid. Snap Oversteer. Mid-engined cars have low rotational intertia, making them easier to spin. Inexperienced drivers react to an understeer by backing off the throttle too much or braking, which transfers weight forward making the front wheels grip, but also making the rear wheels lose traction, and around she goes. I've done that too. *grin*

I'm off for a few hours to try to get a demo for an Electric Motorcycle: Zero Motorcycles.

--Carlos V.
 
Last edited:
Do the nosegear tires on the Long Beach Death Tubes have chines, and are they mandatory?

If so, that set of tires may be done for... no matter if there's any rubber left to land on.
 
This is the poster child to stock car lingo....:yesnod:

When watching NASCAR and the good ol boy announcer says.....
"seems like Bubba has picked up a push"...... refer to this pic..:idea::D:lol:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top