Night SOLO student xc - legal or not??

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from another thread on another board - student says he's set up to do his long solo xc at night, from and back to a strip that does NOT have runway lighting - only reflectors.

Is this even legal? I KNOW it ain't smart. What do you Reg. Heads have to say about this?
 
Well...I guess if the CFI has endorsed him for XC and Night flying and is willing to let it happen then its legal. Doesnt mean its smart. Certainly doesnt mean that I'd let it happen.
 
My CFI endorsed me for XC and Night due to the DST time change.
3 of my XC's ended after dark.

Legal, yes.
To unlit airport, bad idea.
 
I was signed off of night solo, but not night solo XC. There's nothing in the FAR's that precludes anyone from landing at an unlit strip under not-for-hire-part-91.

I wouldn't sign off on it though.
 
Ayuh -- either the CFI concerned has cojones the size of cannonballs or the student is lying out his nether region. Ain't no way on God's green earth I'd ever sign off on such a flight. But with enough endorsements, it would be legal.
 
And yet, a few days later after the checkride, he is free to do it on his own. But no CFI has his ... instructor ticket ... hanging out in the wind.
 
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And yet, a few days later after the checkride, he is free to do it on his own. But no CFI has his ... instructor ticket ... hanging out in the wind.

I know. Funny isn't it. CFI's won't sign off on student solo night XC, but will sign off on their checkride which will allow them to fly night XC with passengers no less.
 
And yet, a few days later after the checkride, he is free to do it on his own. But no CFI has his ... instructor ticket ... hanging out in the wind.

Yeah, but look at the original post. The student wanted to go to a strip with NO RUNWAY LIGHTS. Just reflectors. I am not sure that is a good idea even for a private pilot.
 
Yeah, but look at the original post. The student wanted to go to a strip with NO RUNWAY LIGHTS. Just reflectors. I am not sure that is a good idea even for a private pilot.

Not being argumentative, Greg, but have you ever landed at an aiport with the retro-reflective lighting? Its awesome, and just as good as runway lights, once you get to final.

Now, if the landing light goes out, you're screwed, but with the landing light, I'd fly to and land at a reflective lighted strip anyday.
 
"once you get to final..." is the operative phrase, here - and this guy is a STUDENT.
 
But with enough endorsements, it would be legal.

It may be legal but doesn't that expose the cfi to excessive civil liability issues? If this hits the fan I think a good lawyer take him for every penny he has.
 
I was signed off of night solo, but not night solo XC.

There is no seperate night solo x/c endorsement. If a student is endorsed for night solo, and endorsed for x/c, he is automaticaly endorsed for night solo x/c, unless the night solo has a limitation of local only.

I am amazed at the number of responses that essentially say, "I didn't do it, so it is unsafe and I wouldn't sign off on it."

An endorsement is saying that it is safe. If an instructor signs off on a night x/c, then he has prepared that student for that event.

That's what the endorsement means. An endorsement isn't something that is standard. It doesn't mean the same ol' thing for everybody.

Maybe in a pilot mill it does. That's what I think I am reading - pilot mill instructors.

When you say "I wouldn't sign off on it.", you are saying, "I wouldn't train an individual to do this." "I only want to train to FAA minimums." "I don't want to put my CFI ticket on the line - I would rather that the person take his own chances alone when he has his Private ticket." That's what you guys sound like.

Of course, a night x/c requires more training, but it is a wonderful thing to see individuals who are curious about "out-of-the-box" thinking when training.
 
Maybe in a pilot mill it does. That's what I think I am reading - pilot mill instructors.

Fighting words :yes:

Actually--I am somewhat in agreement with you. It's hard to know the background of the student pilot and the instructor. It's impossible to know what the instructor has covered and the style of teaching. This could be one of those situations to where the instructor and student are reaching far above the average level of training.

If you take into consideration the average skill and average training given to a student pilot--yes it's a problem. But there are exceptions and I am positive there are "student" pilots out there that are a better pilot than I.

In other words--don't jump to conclusions.
 
There is no seperate night solo x/c endorsement. If a student is endorsed for night solo, and endorsed for x/c, he is automaticaly endorsed for night solo x/c, unless the night solo has a limitation of local only.

The way that Far Part 61 Sec 61.87(o)(1) and (2) reads, "2) Navigation training at night in the vicinity of the airport where the solo flight will be conducted; and" would lead me to believe that the instructor would have to give you night training for each specific airport you're going to operate from / to - X/C or not.
 
"once you get to final..." is the operative phrase, here - and this guy is a STUDENT.

I understand your concerns. If you are not comfortable flying to a beacon, seeing the runway below you in your landing lights as you approach the beacon, entering downwind where the runway is partially lit by the ambient light around the airport (including the flashing beacon), turning final, and having it light up, then don't do it.

But there's really no real reason to start blacklisting activities from students just because you, as a PP, feel uncomfortable doing it. Its a legal activity, with some good opportunities for learning, and if the instructor and the student feel comfortable, I say let 'er rip.
 
It's legal and with proper training is not excessively dangerous but I've never seen an insurance company that will cover it, so even though my students are well trained in night ops even without lights, they are not released by me to practice those night ops as students.
 
It may be legal but doesn't that expose the cfi to excessive civil liability issues? If this hits the fan I think a good lawyer take him for every penny he has.
Exactly why I made the cannonball cojones remark. The risk to me is just too great for me to allow a student to do it. Once they've got the ticket, I'm no longer directly responsible for their actions.
 
The State of New Mexico has installed retro-reflective lighting at all of the state-owned airports (Conchas Dam, Tatum, Eunice, and Navajo Lake.)

http://www.swaviator.com/html/issueAM00/lightingAM00.html

These passive lighting systems are proving to be an effective, reliable, and low cost means of lighting airport runways and taxiways in rural New Mexico.

Using the aircraft landing lights will "light up" the runway reflectors at about 1-1/2 miles out. Reflectors have the same intensity as MIRL.
 
As others have stated, it's perfectly legal if the CFI has provided the required night dual and has added the endorsements to the logbook. I'd never do it under the circumstances stated. In fact, I wouldn't be sending a student on a solo night cross country to a towered airport or any other. Anything that goes awry on a cross-country flight will be magnified by the night conditions.

If the student were flying in a school/club deal, I doubt it would be acceptable as the risks involved are too great. None of the schools at which I've taught even allowed solo night flying by students, and forget about the cross country. It is, again, perfectly legal. The CFI is weird. "Student pilot" is an important factor.
 
The State of New Mexico has installed retro-reflective lighting at all of the state-owned airports (Conchas Dam, Tatum, Eunice, and Navajo Lake.)

http://www.swaviator.com/html/issueAM00/lightingAM00.html

These passive lighting systems are proving to be an effective, reliable, and low cost means of lighting airport runways and taxiways in rural New Mexico.

Using the aircraft landing lights will "light up" the runway reflectors at about 1-1/2 miles out. Reflectors have the same intensity as MIRL.

And they work VERY well.
 
Sometimes night time is all you have to work with. I had a pp student pass his checkride with only 9 hrs of day time. He was a doc who worked the night shift and flew on his "breaks". Perfectly SAFE as long as you have trained the student properly. Where I live, night flying is very user friendly with respect to terrain ,abundance of airports and the endless "grid pattern" of lights. You can typicaly see 50n.m. away which makes navigation/trafic aviodance pretty painless.
 
Sometimes night time is all you have to work with. I had a pp student pass his checkride with only 9 hrs of day time. He was a doc who worked the night shift and flew on his "breaks". Perfectly SAFE as long as you have trained the student properly. Where I live, night flying is very user friendly with respect to terrain ,abundance of airports and the endless "grid pattern" of lights. You can typicaly see 50n.m. away which makes navigation/trafic aviodance pretty painless.

I don't, and never have, understood the fears people have about night flying. With the proper precautions, its just as safe, if not safer than day flight. You can see airports from about 60 miles out, so getting lost is harder. You can see traffic from miles and miles away so collision avoidance is easier. Cities are easier to identify as the lights usually match the contours of the sectional.

The one down side to night flight is emergency procedures. Which pool of black do you aim for? But out here, flying over some of the terrain we fly over in NM, you are making that same choice in the daytime too.
 
[/quote]The one down side to night flight is emergency procedures. Which pool of black do you aim for? But out here, flying over some of the terrain we fly over in NM, you are making that same choice in the daytime too.[/quote]


Turn the landing light on,,,,,if you don't like what you see turn it off
 
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I don't, and never have, understood the fears people have about night flying. With the proper precautions, its just as safe, if not safer than day flight. You can see airports from about 60 miles out, so getting lost is harder. You can see traffic from miles and miles away so collision avoidance is easier. Cities are easier to identify as the lights usually match the contours of the sectional.

The one down side to night flight is emergency procedures. Which pool of black do you aim for? But out here, flying over some of the terrain we fly over in NM, you are making that same choice in the daytime too.

Agreed...
 
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As I see it, the biggest issue at night is the inability to see clouds and terrain/obstacles. It's way too easy to fly into one or the other without visual warning. While careful planning and navigation will keep you out of terrain/obstacles, you can find yourself inside a cloud with no warning at all, and just because they're reporting "clear" doesn't mean that there aren't some clouds around. Happened to me last night on the way home from Lynchburg VA. I could see Salisbury from 50 miles out at 9000, but passing about 5500 was quite startled ("WTFWT?!") to fly through a small cloud. Not a problem for me operating IFR, but stuff like that can be a major problem for a Student Pilot.
 
I could see Salisbury from 50 miles out at 9000, but passing about 5500 was quite startled ("WTFWT?!") to fly through a small cloud. Not a problem for me operating IFR, but stuff like that can be a major problem for a Student Pilot.
Yes, it is a problem with Student Pilots.

...and by the way, 3 hours of night time is not nearly enough to do solo x/c's. Generally. It really depends on the student and the teraain and the local conditions, but generally, the 3 hour minimum is just a quickie check-out for night local.

But what you describe is precisely why we should do more night x/c with students.

Student Pilots are supposed to be people who are students of piloting - learning what is needed to learn and experience being a pilot. All the stuff that can happen at night needs to be experienced with an instructor first before discovering it on your own with the wife and kids, or especially $-paying pax.
 
The way that Far Part 61 Sec 61.87(o)(1) and (2) reads, "2) Navigation training at night in the vicinity of the airport where the solo flight will be conducted; and" would lead me to believe that the instructor would have to give you night training for each specific airport you're going to operate from / to - X/C or not.
Very interesting take, but you are under 61.87 which is for solo. Period. Just solo. Not X/C.

Cross-Country for student pilots is under 61.93.

61.87 lists solo requirements. (o) lists the requirements for solo at the airport where the night solo flight will be conducted. The navigation training is in the vicinity of the airport where the solo flight will be conducted. This means you must at least leave the traffic pattern and have the student navigate in the vicinity and be able to get back into the pattern at night.

61.93 lists requirements for x/c, which does not specifically say night training at each airport, but it does use lots of general phrases that cover all the bases of being trained and prepared to do whtever the instructor authorizes. The responsibility is on the instructor to insure the training is sufficient. And we all realize that night navigation and cloud avoidance and a host of other things can go much wronger at night - which is the precise reason why we should do more night training.

3 hours for a private and 5 hours for a commercial is not generally enough. Those are the bare minimums, but the training objective should be to solo proficiency.
 
I understand your concerns. If you are not comfortable flying to a beacon, seeing the runway below you in your landing lights as you approach the beacon, entering downwind where the runway is partially lit by the ambient light around the airport (including the flashing beacon), turning final, and having it light up, then don't do it.

But there's really no real reason to start blacklisting activities from students just because you, as a PP, feel uncomfortable doing it. Its a legal activity, with some good opportunities for learning, and if the instructor and the student feel comfortable, I say let 'er rip.
I didn't say a thing about keeping anyone from doing it - what I'm saying is, in my opinion, it's pretty stupid for a student to be flying his solo long xc at night to and from an airport without r/w lights. Your assumption that there is a beacon right to that airport ... well, I have no information that is true, nor do you. There's a reason insurance companies aren't likely to support such an activity. You can go do whatever you want. Truly.
 
Student Pilots are supposed to be people who are students of piloting - learning what is needed to learn and experience being a pilot. All the stuff that can happen at night needs to be experienced with an instructor first before discovering it on your own with the wife and kids, or especially $-paying pax.
Your point is well taken, but keep in mind that the current national average from zero to PPL is up around 65 hours. It's hard enough for folks to stay motivated through that without making it even longer by including night XC in the mix. For that reason, as long as the student is brought to the understanding that more post-PPL training is needed for night XC, I'm comfortable with leaving the serious night checkout work until after the PPL is earned and they are comfortable with day XC flying.
 
I didn't say a thing about keeping anyone from doing it - what I'm saying is, in my opinion, it's pretty stupid for a student to be flying his solo long xc at night to and from an airport without r/w lights. Your assumption that there is a beacon right to that airport ... well, I have no information that is true, nor do you. There's a reason insurance companies aren't likely to support such an activity. You can go do whatever you want. Truly.

I agree. FWIW, the only runways I've seen that do not have runway lights or a beacon are unpaved strips, and that is something I would NEVER touch at night, because there's too many unknowns. But you are right, without a beacon, without runway lights, there's no business flying there at night, IMHO. Take away the reflective markers that some have, and I say that's grounds for a 91.13(a) bust.
 
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