Night Logging.

J

jesse

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
16,012
Location
...
Display Name
Display name:
Jesse
Well .. I flew with an instructor tonight..if you can even call him that.

One of the things he said is that you cannot log night time unless it is 1 hour after sunset.

I said, no, your currency needs to be one hour after sunset. You can log night time at sunset (end of evening twilight?) not sure if that's the same thing or not..But pretty sure it's not what he's saying.

He once again said I was wrong. I dropped the subject

Anyone know the FAR / Whatever I can refer this guy to?

Or am I wrong?
 
No, I think you're right. It's been a while since I've read up on that particular issue though. It should be in the FAR/AIM, but I don't know the reference.
 
My opinion is that you're wrong, but as we saw, I can't prove it, so I'm probably wrong.

I'll bet the Part 61 (91??) FAQ has the info in it.
 
Regulations refer to sunset and sunrise, and/or evening or morning civil twilight. By regulation, you may carry passengers until one hour after sunset, and one hour before sunrise without night currency.

From Whitts Flying website

FAR Part 91 says that night is from sunset to sunrise as far as the operation of position lights. Night, according to FAR Part 61 is from one hour after sunset until one hour before sunrise for purposes of night landing currency for carrying passengers. The official definition is in FAR 1.1.


FAR Night Flight Requirements (instructor)
Night FARs--Night currency requires three full stop landings within past 90 days.

--Landings must take place one hour after sunset to count towards currency.

--Navigational lights must go on at sunset.

--FAR 91.209 requires that position lights and anti-collision lights be used from sunset to sunrise. For logging purposes, night is the time between sunset and sunrise, for currency purposes night is from one-hour after sunset to one-hour before sunrise.

--SVFR at night is not allowed unless IFR current for both pilot and plane. 45-minute fuel reserve is required at night.

--Night visibility must be 3 miles except when remaining within 1/2 mile of airport while doing pattern work. Cloud clearances are 500, 1000, and 2000 feet.

--FAR Part 1 defines official "night" so pilots can log the conditions of flight, day or night required by FAR 61.51 (b)(3)(i). Twilight is the time of incomplete darkness after sunset or before sunrise. FAR 61.57(d) defines pilot proficiency requirement that must be complied with before the pilot can be pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers at night. This is the time one hour after sunset and one hour before sunrise. This more restrictive "night" is designed to assure pilot proficiency. The less restrictive requirement can be used for meeting certificate requirements.

--Nothing in FAR Part 91 requires lights for takeoff or landing at night at either controlled or uncontrolled airports. However ATC cannot clear you to land at an unlighted runway. They can say that any landing is at your own risk. Most obstructions do not appear on ATC radar. Obstruction clearance and avoidance is a pilot responsibility and the eyeball is best supplemented by a sectional chart. ATC will not issue a clearance that does not provide standard terrain clearance. Pilot agreement to a given clearance is required only in non-tower operations. Terrain avoidance remains totally the pilot responsibility until minimum instrument altitude (MIA) is reached. ATC cannot issue a clearance requiring pilot concurrence unless the pilot says that he can maintain obstacle and terrain clearance. Pilot concurrence does not mean that the flight must be or will be flown in VFR conditions.
 
FAR 1.1:

Night means the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the American Air Almanac, converted to local time.
Click to expand...
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgFAR.nsf/0/7B29C0FFCE0C430A86256EDF00478339?OpenDocument

For logging night flight time, you are correct. For logging landings for currency, it MUST be between 1 hr after sunset and 1 hr before sunrise.

FAR 61.57(b):

(b) Night takeoff and landing experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, and-
Click to expand...

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...253B8561B407368686256DAC004DA961?OpenDocument
 
Here's my summary:

1 hour after sunset to 1 hour before sunrise:
takeoffs and landings count for night currency.
night takeoff/landing currency is required to carry pax.

Night:
Night means the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the American Air Almanac, converted to local time.

Logging for aeronautical requirements (certificates) is allowed.
Anticollision lights, fuses, landing light(for hire) required.
VFR visibility requirements change.


Sunset-Sunrise:
Special VFR requires IR and equip.
Recreational and Sport pilots must be endorsed.
Position Lights and if installed, anticollision lights must be on.
 
Hey guys I know this is a really old thread but here is a link to a website provided by the Navy that will calculate tables showing sunrise/sunset and civil twilight times for any US location.

Also has moonrise/moonset options too..

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneYear.php
 
Steve said:
From Whitts Flying website

FAR Part 91 says that night is from sunset to sunrise as far as the operation of position lights.
Click to expand...

Nope. It does not. FAR part 91.209 in referring to aircraft position lights does not use the word "night."

It instead uses the terms "during the period from sunset to sunrise..."

Sunset to sunrise, in itself, is therefore not "night." I know of no references in part 91 that use this terminology the Whitt's site is referring to. If anyone knows of such terminology being used (calling the period sunset to sunrise "night") please correct me.

Anyway yes due to FAR 1.1's definition of night being between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, you can log night time without waiting until an hour after sunset or an hour before sunrise.

This is because if you look at the times for civil twilight, you'll see they tend to be approximately 1/2 hour after sunset or 1/2 hour before sunrise. BTW an easy place to find this data is on airnav.com.

IOW you can log night time with passengers on board without being current, up to 59 minutes past sunset or before sunrise.

Jesse you were close-- just not right that sunset and end of civil twilight are not the same thing. The instructor was incorrect about the 1-hour thing.

BTW- my CFI examiner posed this question on my checkride: You are not night current. You take off sometime before sunset, fly to somewhere far away and by the time you land it is more than one hour past sunset. You do three landings altogether. Are you now night current?

...... And the answer is, NO. FAR 61.57 (b)(1) requires three takeoffs and landings to be performed in that period beginning one hour after sunset. Your first takeoff was in the daytime so it didn't count. You'd have to do one more landing so that you can get that third night takeoff in.
 
I must clarify. 91.205 (c) "Visual Flight Rules (night)" does list position lights under equipment required for night operation.

But "night" in this section is that civil twilight definition. It doesn't say sunset to sunrise. You need to go back to 91.209 to read about being required to operate position lights sunset to sunrise. Being required to have something and being required to operate it are two different things.

All the other stuff on the list, you do not need to have or be operating until the civil twilight thing kicks in.

So in 91.205, position lights are associated with the word "night" but here that does not mean sunset to sunrise. So I reiterate that part 91 still never says that "night" = sunset to sunrise.

This could be where the Whitt's Flying Site got the misconception / confusion from.
 
skyflyer8 said:
BTW- my CFI examiner posed this question on my checkride: You are not night current. You take off sometime before sunset, fly to somewhere far away and by the time you land it is more than one hour past sunset. You do three landings altogether. Are you now night current?

...... And the answer is, NO. FAR 61.57 (b)(1) requires three takeoffs and landings to be performed in that period beginning one hour after sunset. Your first takeoff was in the daytime so it didn't count. You'd have to do one more landing so that you can get that third night takeoff in.
Click to expand...

Actually, the answer is "maybe." If, for example, you had two night T/O & landings prior to this flight you wouldn't have been night current, but the two takeoffs and three landings on this flight would have been sufficient to restore currency. So, unless he gave you more information than presented here, you could have made that argument. Of course, being able to make the argument would have demonstrated the requisite understanding!:yes:
 
gprellwitz said:
Actually, the answer is "maybe." If, for example, you had two night T/O & landings prior to this flight you wouldn't have been night current, but the two takeoffs and three landings on this flight would have been sufficient to restore currency. So, unless he gave you more information than presented here, you could have made that argument. Of course, being able to make the argument would have demonstrated the requisite understanding!:yes:
Click to expand...

Details Details. :D
 
Civil twilight is when the sun is 6 degrees below the horizon.

On the equator, the sun's apparent motion is linear, it pretty much sets in a straight line perdendicular to the horizon. The sun moves across the sky at 15 degrees per hour (360 degrees in a circle/24 hours), so 6 degrees would take 24 minutes. This would be the shortest time from sunset to civil twililght on the globe.

At northern lattitudes, we all know the sun sets at a diagonal motion any day of the year, thus taking longer to get 6 degrees below the horizon, and our friends in Alaska all know that around June 21, sometimes twilight never ends, since the sun never gets far below the horizon.

So length of twlight increases the farther from the equator you get.
 
So in summary:

At sunset turn on your position lights (FAR 91.209).

At civil twilight start logging night flight time (FAR 1.1)

At sunset + 1 hour, stop carrying PAX unless you have made 3 T/O and 3 full stop landings after sunset + 1 hour in the last 90 days (FAR 61.57(b))
 
Last edited:
MarkL said:
So in summary:

At sunset turn on your position lights (FAR 91.209).

At civil twilight start logging night flight time (FAR 1.1)

At sunset + 1 hour, stop carrying PAX unless you have made 3 T/O and 3 full stop landings after sunset + 1 hour in the last 90 days (FAR 61.57(b))
Click to expand...
How about... when the sun is just above the horizon, turn on nav lights along with strobes if those aren't already on. Begin counting your night time at that point then cut the total by about two-tenths. And, stay current for all phases of flight as rated.
 
KennyFlys said:
How about... when the sun is just above the horizon, turn on nav lights along with strobes if those aren't already on. Begin counting your night time at that point then cut the total by about two-tenths. And, stay current for all phases of flight as rated.
Click to expand...

1) I don't understand how that is easier than what Mark wrote.
2) It's not technically correct. Why is teaching your students to turn on their lights when the sun is just above the horizon better than teaching them the FAR? Deducting "two-tenths" isn't following the FARs either. As discussed in other threads, as a CFI how you describe things needs to leave no room for interpretation in order to protect your students from the law of primacy. If they walk in to the DPE and tell him "well, I start logging at sunset and deduction two-tenths when I log it" that will be a huge red flag for the DPE to start asking more questions to look for deficiencies in their knowledge.
 
FlyNE said:
1) I don't understand how that is easier than what Mark wrote.
2) It's not technically correct. Why is teaching your students to turn on their lights when the sun is just above the horizon better than teaching them the FAR? Deducting "two-tenths" isn't following the FARs either. As discussed in other threads, as a CFI how you describe things needs to leave no room for interpretation in order to protect your students from the law of primacy. If they walk in to the DPE and tell him "well, I start logging at sunset and deduction two-tenths when I log it" that will be a huge red flag for the DPE to start asking more questions to look for deficiencies in their knowledge.
Click to expand...

right on w/Jason'sand Mark's comments
 
Last edited:
How about:
  • turn on your nav lights when it looks like it's starting to get dark out
  • start logging night time when it looks like it's really dark out
  • learn the FARs, know where to determine correct times for sunset and civil twilight (e.g. www.wunderground.com), teach this to your students, and claim you do this yourself when answering questions on a checkride
-harry
 
FlyNE said:
1) I don't understand how that is easier than what Mark wrote.
2) It's not technically correct. Why is teaching your students to turn on their lights when the sun is just above the horizon better than teaching them the FAR? Deducting "two-tenths" isn't following the FARs either. As discussed in other threads, as a CFI how you describe things needs to leave no room for interpretation in order to protect your students from the law of primacy. If they walk in to the DPE and tell him "well, I start logging at sunset and deduction two-tenths when I log it" that will be a huge red flag for the DPE to start asking more questions to look for deficiencies in their knowledge.
Click to expand...
I'm all for teaching the underlying FAR. My apologies. I'm speaking to rule of thumb while in flight.

If you have GPS data that tells you the times, awesome. Or, an almanac.
 
MarkL said:
So in summary:

At sunset turn on your position lights (FAR 91.209).

At civil twilight start logging night flight time (FAR 1.1)

At sunset + 1 hour, stop carrying PAX unless you have made 3 T/O and 3 full stop landings after sunset + 1 hour in the last 90 days (FAR 61.57(b))
Click to expand...
That's the long and the short of it. The only other question is how to determine when sunset and civil twilight are, and that's been answered, too -- http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneYear.php.
 
I really can't recommend night logging. I've done it during the day and it can be difficult to get out of the way of the falling tree if you don't make the cuts just right. Night logging just seems downright dangerous.:rofl:
 
I must say that while I was aware of the civil twilight rule for lights, I tell my students about the rule, but if flying in congested airspace I tell my students (if I had any) and generally as a pilot, turn on my lights as it starts getting dark, to aid in identification.

~ Christopher
 
kevin47881 said:
I really can't recommend night logging. I've done it during the day and it can be difficult to get out of the way of the falling tree if you don't make the cuts just right. Night logging just seems downright dangerous.:rofl:
Click to expand...
Twisted!!

This was exactly what I was thinking.

Now I gotta run and Tivo AxeMen

:D:D:rofl::rofl:
 
smigaldi said:
Twisted!!

This was exactly what I was thinking.

Now I gotta run and Tivo AxeMen

:D:D:rofl::rofl:
Click to expand...

How's that make you feel Kevin? You and Scott on the same wavelength? That'll teach you to pipe up. :D:D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top