New rule for pax!

Pi1otguy

Pi1otguy

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Fox McCloud
After watching the right seater of another a/c slip and almost lose his head to the prop on Saturday I decided to explcitly state the following rules during the pax briefing whenever I'm PIC. We have really got to do better when it comes to props or rotors.

New Rule:
1. All passengers must stay inside the craft until the prop has come to a complete stop.

2. In the unlikely event #1 is waived, the pax will not go forward of the lead edge.

3. While walking on the tarmac everyone will walk behind manned piston aircraft or >12ft in front of manned piston piston or jet planes.

4. Head, necks, and torsos will alway remain outside of the prop arc. Walk around if required.

Be careful everyone. What rules do you have while PIC?
 
Similar. I have a briefing card that everyone gets, which specifically talks about the prop danger area. Copy is attached.
 

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Pi1otguy said:
After watching the right seater of another a/c slip and almost lose his head to the prop on Saturday I decided to explcitly state the following rules during the pax briefing whenever I'm PIC. We have really got to do better when it comes to props or rotors.

New Rule:
1. All passengers must stay inside the craft until the prop has come to a complete stop.

2. In the unlikely event #1 is waived, the pax will not go forward of the lead edge.

3. While walking on the tarmac everyone will walk behind manned piston aircraft or >12ft in front of manned piston piston or jet planes.

4. Head, necks, and torsos will alway remain outside of the prop arc. Walk around if required.

Be careful everyone. What rules do you have while PIC?
Click to expand...
Just one. If there is anyone of my pax outside the aircraft, the engine(s) are shutdown. If that person is a rated pilot, the rule is changed to: the RIGHT engine is shutdown.
 
bbchien said:
Just one. If there is anyone of my pax outside the aircraft, the engine(s) are shutdown. If that person is a rated pilot, the rule is changed to: the RIGHT engine is shutdown.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but in your twin the passenger has to hop up on the wing next to the engine to go into the door. :hairraise:

It scares me ta death to have anybody anywhere outside when the prop is spinning. I hate it when the bozo line guys stand there where they want you park and guide you to bring the prop up their nose. GET AWAY!
 
mikea said:
Yeah, but in your twin the passenger has to hop up on the wing next to the engine to go into the door. :hairraise:

It scares me ta death to have anybody anywhere outside when the prop is spinning. I hate it when the bozo line guys stand there where they want you park and guide you to bring the prop up their nose. GET AWAY!
Click to expand...

But Bruce just said that the engine is shut down on the side with the door, and I assume he trusts a rated pilot to not walk into the prop on the OTHER side of the airplane. That seems to me to be reasonable.
 
TMetzinger said:
But Bruce just said that the engine is shut down on the side with the door, and I assume he trusts a rated pilot to not walk into the prop on the OTHER side of the airplane. That seems to me to be reasonable.
Click to expand...

Right. I agree. I don't think I'd release my belts if the right prop wasn't stopped.
 
I have only once loaded a passenger with an engine running. I was flying to an intermediate point to pick up one passenger (a kid Tommy's age) and go, and I arranged in advance with the FBO (a good and professional organization) and the child's mom- ground rules (nyuk) were, I taxied parallel with the terminal, right wing (door side) ahead of the exit door from terminal, they exited terminal and approached from right and slightly behind, escorted by the line man. Engine idling about 600 RPM. If at any time anyone had broken the plane of the leading edge, I would have pulled the mixture.

All instructions were properly followed, and we were up and on our way without controversy.

I would not have tried that without (1) complete prior arrangements, with (2) people I trust.
 
Having seen folks slip off the wing and fall forward (even around a door like a piper/mooneys), there's no way I'd ever have an engine running on a single when people are boarding - things just happen too fast to trust my ability to react. I don't like people in the danger area of the single even with the engine stopped.

On a twin, I might use Bruce's method if nobody's path is ever on the running side of the airplane.
 
Had to jump start my plane a couple weeks ago. There was no way around not having someone outside the plane with the fan spinning.
 
Humm....Other than lineman, no one gets to walk around my bird with the fan moving. So, there should be no need for a new rule for me.....:goofy:

Should either door open.....the engine gets shut down.
 
EdFred said:
Had to jump start my plane a couple weeks ago. There was no way around not having someone outside the plane with the fan spinning.
Click to expand...

Nice feature of some airplanes (Mooney, Socata) is the external power plug behind the wing. You're right, sometimes someone has to be close, but that person should be someone up to the task.
 
hell, I don't let 'em within 6 feet of the prop even when the engine is shut down and the key's in my pocket. :no:
 
I brief PAX how to exit the a/c if the rotors are turning. They may have to in an emergency. Beyond that, I don't let them do it unless they are escorted by someone who is experienced in heli ops (unless there really is an emergency).
 
Bob, I'm sure you've seen people get off helos and walk around as if they had no idea a big set of rotors was spinning just feet above their heads, just waiting to droop and give em' a haircut down to the shoulders.

Maybe I'm a chicken, but you had better bet I'm leaning over with my head down while I'm inside the rotor shadow, and boogying out of there promptly...
 
mikea said:
Yeah, but in your twin the passenger has to hop up on the wing next to the engine to go into the door. :hairraise:

It scares me ta death to have anybody anywhere outside when the prop is spinning. I hate it when the bozo line guys stand there where they want you park and guide you to bring the prop up their nose. GET AWAY!
Click to expand...


I used to be one of those bozo line guys :D. For us it's a bit of a non-event, but I guarantee you that my eyes are on three things: 1)the prop (I'm always going to know where it is and if it's turning), 2)the pilot (I want to know you're looking at me), and 3)the tires (best way to judge turning/changes in speed so I need to know if I need to move).

We do single engine turns a lot at these out stations, and our rules are basically the same as what everyone has mentioned. Left engine must be shut down and prop stopped before door is opened (if door is opened first, engine must be off and I have to be off the plane and I'll stop the prop by hand before any pax are allowed out). We have to be angled in such a way that that the pax never walk behind the leading edge or in front of the nose of the a/c. One crew member has to have his seat belt fastened and be able to see the running engine at all times. The crew members also have to be within line of sight of each other to give the "shut down" signal if needed. And, we have to brief the pax on the plane before the door is opened that we're going to have an engine turning and the folks inside have to do the same.
 
flyersfan31 said:
Bob, I'm sure you've seen people get off helos and walk around as if they had no idea a big set of rotors was spinning just feet above their heads, just waiting to droop and give em' a haircut down to the shoulders.

Maybe I'm a chicken, but you had better bet I'm leaning over with my head down while I'm inside the rotor shadow, and boogying out of there promptly...
Click to expand...
You sure as hell won't see me standing tall under the rotor disc :no:

And every year the herd gets thinned when some yutz walks into a spinning tail rotor...
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Should either door open.....the engine gets shut down.
Click to expand...


True, but with as quick as I saw the right seater hop out, slip, and barely catch the strut its obvious to me that pulling the mix or killing the mags the fan would still hurt. I'm just saying that I'll actually tell my pax (including rated pax).
 
Hmmmm, trying here to come up with a reason for an engine to be running when a passenger is boarding or de-boarding my plane. Hmmmm. Can't seem to think of one.
 
My primary rule as PIC...

NONE OF THOSE CHEESY-PEANUT-BUTTER-CRACKER-SANDWICH-THINGS IN THE AIRPLANE!!!! I'd rather have 'em write on the headliner with a crayon...it's easier to remove.:mad:

Beyond that, all the coordination and planning in the world may not be sufficient if little Suzy's drawing of refrigerator magnets gets blown out of her hand, towards your spinning prop. Guess which way she's gonna run?

And that's not to say I haven't and won't enplane/deplane passengers with an engine running. Rare occasions may allow it.

But the biggest reason I've seen over the years is lack of electrical system, and that's not a good reason for me. I used to have a buddy with an Aeronca Chief...he gave a lot of rides to kids. I'd pull my arms off starting him all day long if he had that many rides to give, but he wouldn't enplane/deplane ANYBODY with the engine running. He and I were at the same fly-in when a 6-year-old girl got so excited about her airplane ride that she couldn't figure out which direction to run when she got out of the airplane, and apparently she just HAD to run. :( We decided that was NEVER going to happen just because of his lack of electrical system.

Fly safe!

David
 
When I get my PPL, my rule will be "I am the PIC, I am in command, you do as I say or die." I think it'll be pretty effective. :)
 
Navions are placarded that the passengers are not to exit while the engine is running (the default configuration is to step off the FRONT of the wing).

Even on skyhawks I always insist on shutting down before anybody goes in or out.
 
Teller1900 said:
I used to be one of those bozo line guys :D. For us it's a bit of a non-event, but I guarantee you that my eyes are on three things: 1)the prop (I'm always going to know where it is and if it's turning), 2)the pilot (I want to know you're looking at me), and 3)the tires (best way to judge turning/changes in speed so I need to know if I need to move).

We do single engine turns a lot at these out stations, and our rules are basically the same as what everyone has mentioned. Left engine must be shut down and prop stopped before door is opened (if door is opened first, engine must be off and I have to be off the plane and I'll stop the prop by hand before any pax are allowed out). We have to be angled in such a way that that the pax never walk behind the leading edge or in front of the nose of the a/c. One crew member has to have his seat belt fastened and be able to see the running engine at all times. The crew members also have to be within line of sight of each other to give the "shut down" signal if needed. And, we have to brief the pax on the plane before the door is opened that we're going to have an engine turning and the folks inside have to do the same.
Click to expand...

There's absolutey NO reason that a line guy has to be in front of a plane when they are being parked, you can easily do it from the side, way safer. (like the big boys do).

Also, I can think of no good reason to leave an engine running while loading or unloading pax, with rare exception.

And if kid's are within 100 feet, shut them down. Kids (and usually kids parents) have no sense.
 
Larryo said:
There's absolutey NO reason that a line guy has to be in front of a plane when they are being parked, you can easily do it from the side, way safer. (like the big boys do).

Also, I can think of no good reason to leave an engine running while loading or unloading pax, with rare exception.

And if kid's are within 100 feet, shut them down. Kids (and usually kids parents) have no sense.
Click to expand...

I don't think I could have marshaled from the side...we had a pretty narrow ramp, and you quickly loose sight of the far wingtip if you're off to the side. I probably should have stood farther back than I did, but even that was tough on our ramp.

The big boys get marshaled from directly in front. They have wing walkers off to the sides, but the lead marshaler, the one actually giving them guidance is directly in front...again for maximum visibility of both wingtips and wing walkers (and if they're offset to one side or another, they're directly in front of the hungry Hoovers under each wing...not someplace I like standing all too often).
 
I can't recall being marshaled from the side either. That would make it difficult to know how you should line up unless there are lines on the pavement and there frequently are not. Speaking of lining up, it's hard to line up on someone who is constantly moving and turning. It's much easier when they stand still in the place they want us with the wands up. And yeah, sometime they want us to come pretty close. We don't have a prop on the nose, or anywhere else, but I imagine it might hurt to get hit with the pointy end if the brakes fail or something.
 
I don't let passengers out with the engine running, but I do let other pilots get in and out at idle quite often. They know the risks and they know to be careful. And I'm not saying that it couldn't happen, but if you were to fall forward on the wing, you'd have to make quite the leap to be able to hit the prop.

As I personally found out the other day, the real risk with getting out of the Bo is that step toward the back. If you miss it, you fall on your head and you might even hit the flaps :-/

-Felix
 
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I and one of my fellow volunteers at the 1940 Air Terminal Museum led a training for other volunteers on marshalling procedures. We made it policy that there is no reason to ever get closer than 15 ft of a spinning prop when marshalling an aircraft in. Also, when marshalling helicopters, the ramp gets cleared of everyone except for the people directly assisting in the marshalling of the aircraft.
 
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