New crew rest laws!

weilke said:
How is the safety record of the parcel haulers (as in the ones using big planes, not including the small fry in Barons and Navajos) ?
Is there any data to support that fatigue is as big of a problem in their operation as it is in the passenger business ?
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Lots of data has been collected over the years in the form of ASAP and VDRP reporting along with detailed studies (NASA and several university studies) along with Dr. Mark Rosekind.
 
TMetzinger said:
Edit: This is FAA rulemaking, not legislation, right? I can see where the Cargo guys could buy congressmen, but they aren't supposed to be able to buy the FAA guys (at least not as easily).
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TMetzinger said:
FAA regulators aren't elected.
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denverpilot said:
But their bosses are appointed.
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While the folks in the FAA are not elected, congressman and senators are. And those individuals get plenty of pressure from industry (ATA anyone?) when it comes to regulations. Mr. Congressman gets told by the cargo lobbyist what they feel the regulations should look like, reminds him of how much is being donated to his party and campaigns, Congressman then has a talk with the DOT Sec, then the DOT Sec has a talk with the FAA Admin, and so on, and so on.

It rolls downhill. :rolleyes:
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Lots of data has been collected over the years in the form of ASAP and VDRP reporting along with detailed studies (NASA and several university studies) along with Dr. Mark Rosekind.
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Oh, I am sure the data has been collected. My question is whether the data supports a different treatment of the cargo carriers. A lot of their flying is done at low traffic times, on more predictable schedules and into a limited number of airports. It may well be that there are fewer reports of fatigue events and deviations in the cargo world than in the passenger carriers and the FAA felt that they didn't have to make changes. It is allways problematic to make policy based on anectdotes.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
While the folks in the FAA are not elected, congressman and senators are. And those individuals get plenty of pressure from industry (ATA anyone?) when it comes to regulations. Mr. Congressman gets told by the cargo lobbyist what they feel the regulations should look like, reminds him of how much is being donated to his party and campaigns, Congressman then has a talk with the DOT Sec, then the DOT Sec has a talk with the FAA Admin, and so on, and so on.

It rolls downhill. :rolleyes:
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I understand... which raises the question of who has the duty to not bend to that pressure.

If folks are upset with the cargo exemption, who should they be mad at?

The cargo folks who wanted it?
The lobbyists who bribed/pressured congress?
The congresscritters who put pressure on the DOT/FAA?
The DOT/FAA executives who then passed that pressure on to the rule writers?
The rule writers who wrote the rule in response to the pressure?
The executive who signed off on the rule?

We don't think much of pilots who let external pressures compromise safety, so perhaps we should have similar disdain for all of the folks in the list above. Well maybe the first two are actually doing their jobs.
 
TMetzinger said:
Put another way - going to work at 0100 isn't bad if you do it regularly. But from what I've seen of the schedules both pax and cargo pilots fly, it's practically the opposite of "regular".
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Then there's Part 135 on-demand which can happen anytime. Luckily it doesn't happen in the middle of the night that often, but there are occasions when the phone rings and you don't know if you have just fallen asleep or it's almost morning.
 
Everskyward said:
Then there's Part 135 on-demand which can happen anytime. Luckily it doesn't happen in the middle of the night that often, but there are occasions when the phone rings and you don't know if you have just fallen asleep or it's almost morning.
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One of my all time favorite dispatcher stories is when I was on call around the Fall 2009 time frame. One of our owners had a pop-up trip at 12:45am from FRG to BCT for a family emergency and I had the pleasure of waking up the crew. I had to call the captain twice because the first time he mumbled some words and then hung up. It turns out he thought it was a dream!! :rofl:

I'm glad I called twice.
 
TMetzinger said:
I can see where boxes don't merit the same level of safety.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
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Really?

When a 747 plows into a city, does it matter if there are passengers or not in back?

What if a cargo plane has an altitude deviation and wacks a precious airliner?

If the FAA sees a problem, then fix the problem. But we got just what we expected, watered down, lobbied, loop hole filled nonsense.
 
I guess people don't understand the difference between Catastrophic and Severe-Major hazards.
 
And they will screw you like a tied goat to get the trip flown and get the airplane back so they can book another trip. My last trip as a charter pilot was when I got a call for an 2200 show for 2300--but he might be late--depart in the Citation III to LAX, dropoff and return. If pax was late, we would sleep after arrival at LAX and have the jet back in Dallas by noon the next day. Pax arrived at 0130, we arrived at LAX about 0400 our time.

When we checked in after the LAX dropoff, the dispatcher had wadded panties about a 1000 departure from ADS trip she had sold and wanted us to jump back in and fly back immediately. I told her shlt no, and left for the hotel. The owner then called and raised hell, and I told him shlt no too. Niether one of us was fit to fly at that time of morning, and we would have both been sound asleep before we passed Palm Springs eastbound. And so ended my fine career in that horseshlt business.
 
wabower said:
When we checked in after the LAX dropoff, the dispatcher had wadded panties about a 1000 departure from ADS trip she had sold and wanted us to jump back in and fly back immediately. I told her shlt no, and left for the hotel. The owner then called and raised hell, and I told him shlt no too. Niether one of us was fit to fly at that time of morning, and we would have both been sound asleep before we passed Palm Springs eastbound. And so ended my fine career in that horseshlt business.
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Welcome to my world. Fortunately I stick up for the pilots as a dispatcher since I've been there done that. Not everyone else does. Too tired in LAX? Here's a hotel room for you...
 
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