New ATC Tower and Glider Near Failure

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bigblockz8

Pre-takeoff checklist
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So I cracked up listening to this: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kfdk/KFDK-May-05-2012-1530Z.mp3

Start at 7:45 mark and listen until about the 10:10 mark

What happens is pretty funny. The glider has to land and ATC tells him to hold his alt and wait. The glider tries but needs to land. He calls ATC saying that he NEEDS to land now. ATC says to HOLD ALTITUDE. Glider says he cannot, it is a safety issue. ATC finally lets him land.

The tower is in its 5th day of operation. This is at KFDK.
 
Obviously ATC needs to learn about gliders. Doesn't FDK have a separate grass landing area?

We had a temporary tower for an airshow/flyin. We had briefed the tower that when a glider calls leaving the local ridge, he owns the glider landing runway. We have parralle operations. I called leaving the ridge and entering the downwind. On my base leg tower asked me to adjust for #2 to land, I was in the back seat of an L-13 and could not see his traffic. I responded, "unable", everyone else heard something else. The tower chief came over and appoligized. At the end of the day I took him for a short flight with him in the back seat.. Now where is that cezzna you want me to sequence behind?
 
BillTIZ said:
Obviously ATC needs to learn about gliders. Doesn't FDK have a separate grass landing area?

We had a temporary tower for an airshow/flyin. We had briefed the tower that when a glider calls leaving the local ridge, he owns the glider landing runway. We have parralle operations. I called leaving the ridge and entering the downwind. On my base leg tower asked me to adjust for #2 to land, I was in the back seat of an L-13 and could not see his traffic. I responded, "unable", everyone else heard something else. The tower chief came over and appoligized. At the end of the day I took him for a short flight with him in the back seat.. Now where is that cezzna you want me to sequence behind?
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The airport management has a fit if you land on the grass. They even have a fit if you roll out on it. It was (essentially still is) a grass runway but it is now limited to "emergency" use. Grass is basically out of the equation in this case. The club also has a lot of activity on the grass runway and they try to keep it clear (even before the tower) in case any type of aircraft needs to land.
 
"Glider, I have a landing commuter on short final. Could you make a quick 180 there and exit at Alpha? *sigh* Contact ground."
 
BillTIZ said:
Obviously ATC needs to learn about gliders. Doesn't FDK have a separate grass landing area?

We had a temporary tower for an airshow/flyin. We had briefed the tower that when a glider calls leaving the local ridge, he owns the glider landing runway. We have parralle operations. I called leaving the ridge and entering the downwind. On my base leg tower asked me to adjust for #2 to land, I was in the back seat of an L-13 and could not see his traffic. I responded, "unable", everyone else heard something else. The tower chief came over and appoligized. At the end of the day I took him for a short flight with him in the back seat.. Now where is that cezzna you want me to sequence behind?
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So, should UAVs be given unrestricted access to the NAS because their ability to see and avoid is as good as an L-13 with the pilot sitting in back, or should L-13 (J-3?, etc.) operations be restricted?
 
Tell me how the tower is helping again.

I've landed a 170 on the grass runway back when you could. In fact, almost every piece of grass at FDK could be a runway. I've also put it down on the grass in between 23 and the parallel taxiway and I've taxied on the grass at the open house to get off the runway with people behind me.
 
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bigblockz8 said:
So I cracked up listening to this: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kfdk/KFDK-May-05-2012-1530Z.mp3

Start at 7:45 mark and listen until about the 10:10 mark

What happens is pretty funny. The glider has to land and ATC tells him to hold his alt and wait. The glider tries but needs to land. He calls ATC saying that he NEEDS to land now. ATC says to HOLD ALTITUDE. Glider says he cannot, it is a safety issue. ATC finally lets him land.

The tower is in its 5th day of operation. This is at KFDK.
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That's a pretty amazing conversation.

I just checked the controllers' manual, and oddly enough, the only mention of the word "glider" is the exemption from the transponder requirement.
 
"Welcome to Frederick!"

...Love it.

I'm starting to think there are some airports who are too busy to have a tower :)
 
Brad Z said:
I'm starting to think there are some airports who are too busy to have a tower :)
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I suspect that the controllers in that new tower have never worked with gliders before. I also suspect there may be someone looking into the event and whether some additional controller training is required.
 
Brad Z said:
"Welcome to Frederick!"

...Love it.

I'm starting to think there are some airports who are too busy to have a tower :)
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Ain't that the truth. The local towered field gets badly stacked up at volume levels that are pretty easily managed at uncontrolled fields.
 
kyleb said:
Ain't that the truth. The local towered field gets badly stacked up at volume levels that are pretty easily managed at uncontrolled fields.
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There's a message in there -- I wonder if everyone understands it.
 
Well, boys and girls, the rumor is that FDK will be going Class Bravo in the near future.

I would -love- that, because FDK needs to be in the RADAR environment.
 
Even experienced controllers take some time to get up to speed at a new airport. Add a wide range of aircraft, pilots not used to the tower, students, etc., and things become a zoo pretty quick. This was the first busy weekend with a tower in operation.

I was waiting for the "we'll visit you in the Duty Free" by the end of the 30 minutes.
 
spiderweb said:
Well, boys and girls, the rumor is that FDK will be going Class Bravo in the near future.
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It seems like an awfully short time span to go from being a non-towered field to being a class B airport.

Would that put an end to glider operations there?
 
Palmpilot said:
Would that put an end to glider operations there?
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Not necessarily, IMO. It would become Bravo not so much because of commuter airline ops, which don't exist at the current time;but more because of volume of traffic and proximity to IAD, BWI, and DCA. It would just be smoother for there to be that level of control and coordination.

I don't think it would affect glider ops.

Also bear in mind that this was from yesterday--Saturday--which is a big flight training day for the two flight schools at FDK, also home to AOPA.
 
Palmpilot said:
It seems like an awfully short time span to go from being a non-towered field to being a class B airport.

Would that put an end to glider operations there?
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Just so we're all clear, spiderweb was making a joke about Class B for Frederick.
 
spiderweb said:
Well, boys and girls, the rumor is that FDK will be going Class Bravo in the near future.
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Potomac TRACON wants to expand the B-space, but not the surface areas. Their proposal would move the overhang out over FDK, but not down to the top of the D-space, leaving space between the top of the D and the base of the B. As such, FDK would still be a Class D airport, not be Class B airport like BWI or IAD. The working group is evaluating that proposal.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Potomac TRACON wants to expand the B-space, but not the surface areas. Their proposal would move the overhang out over FDK, but not down to the top of the D-space, leaving space between the top of the D and the base of the B. The working group is evaluating that proposal.
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Brad, I wasn't joking, but Ron has put it much better than I did! Sorry about the confusion!
 
Ron Levy said:
Potomac TRACON wants to expand the B-space, but not the surface areas. Their proposal would move the overhang out over FDK, but not down to the top of the D-space, leaving space between the top of the D and the base of the B. As such, FDK would still be a Class D airport, not be Class B airport like BWI or IAD. The working group is evaluating that proposal.
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IN other words, it would become like HEF. That would certainly screw up transit operations for folks trying to avoid P40 and the SFRA. The mess from one regulation begets another.
 
wsuffa said:
IN other words, it would become like HEF. That would certainly screw up transit operations for folks trying to avoid P40 and the SFRA. The mess from one regulation begets another.
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Would it screw up glider ops?
 
spiderweb said:
Brad, I wasn't joking, but Ron has put it much better than I did! Sorry about the confusion!
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A llittle difference between "FDK will be going class bravo..." and "Potomac tracon will be extending the existing bravo so that the outer rings extend beyond and above FDK's Delta airspace".

Ron Levy said:
We all knew that, but there's another lesson I was hinting at.
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A few, in my mind:
1) use your eyes and ears, even when a tower is in operation
2) be PIC, exercise your authority when necessary
3) plan ahead, call early to give the tower some heads up
4) always be ready to go around, multiple times
5) avoid FDK on the first busy day with a new tower in operation

I think I could come up with a dozen ASRS reports just listening to that 30 minute recording.
 
We just avoided FDK altogether on Saturday to do pattern work/possible solo flight. On Sunday it was nice and calm. I did my solo in the towered ops.

My instructor told me about hearing the glider being told to "hold altitude." I laughed.
 
The controller who asks a glider to hold altitude needs a bit more than training...
 
Brad Z said:
A few, in my mind:
1) use your eyes and ears, even when a tower is in operation
2) be PIC, exercise your authority when necessary
3) plan ahead, call early to give the tower some heads up
4) always be ready to go around, multiple times
5) avoid FDK on the first busy day with a new tower in operation
Click to expand...
What I was thinking about kyleb's comment:
The local towered field gets badly stacked up at volume levels that are pretty easily managed at uncontrolled fields.
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...was that the reason towered fields stack up more with the same number of airplanes is that they jam a lot more planes a lot closer together at a nontowered airport than is permitted at a tower-controlled airport, and that means substantially elevated risk at nontowered airports.

Eyes, radios, TIS, TCAS, Traffic Watch -- whatever you have, use it all.
 
FAA BAL FSDO Safety Program Manager is aware of what happened, has a copy of the audio clip, and will be looking into this.
 
Ron Levy said:
What I was thinking about kyleb's comment:

...was that the reason towered fields stack up more with the same number of airplanes is that they jam a lot more planes a lot closer together at a nontowered airport than is permitted at a tower-controlled airport, and that means substantially elevated risk at nontowered airports.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you're addressing midair issues (i.e. not seeing each other), not spacing issues, which are where a pilot knowingly flies at a spacing which is too tight for the situation and results in an accident.

At a towered field, the controller has to increase spacing to allow for the communications loop and the time delay that is inherent. Also, the controller has to handle most operations under the assumption the aircraft is being flown by lowest common denominator pilot - perhaps a solo student. Sure, there are situations where the guy/gal in the tower recognizes who is in the airplane and rewards the "good" pilot with an expedited departure or a tight base to final, but that's the exception.

At uncontrolled fields, I'm not aware of many (any?) accidents where an aircraft collided with another aircraft because the pilot(s) saw the other aircraft but intentionally took off or landed with insufficient spacing. I am aware of midairs (or ground accidents) where pilots didn't didn't see the other aircraft, but that's a failure to see and avoid, not a spacing issue.
 
Ron Levy said:
It certainly might. Thanks for pointing that out -- I'll bring it up to the working group.
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Gliders can operate under the floor of class B airspace and within the 30 NM mode c veil without a transponder. Gliders are limited from operating within Class b and c airspace and cannot operate over the top of class b or c airspace below 10K MSL unless they are modified with a mode c capable transponder.

A good study of 14CFR 91.215 is in order.
 
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BillTIZ said:
Gliders can operate under the floor of class B airspace and within the 30 NM mode c veil without a transponder. Gliders are limited from operating within Class b and c airspace and cannot operate over the top of class b or c airspace below 10K MSL unless they are modified with a mode c capable transponder.

A good study of 14CFR 91.215 is in order.
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You're missing the point. The problem is what happens when you put a Class B shelf low over the top of an airport running gliders ops. The fact that they can legally operate under the floor doesn't help if there's no room in which to operate.
 
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