Nearly Beer

[ScottM]

Many a time I fly into a location and meet a group of people and we have dinner or a picnic, etc. and beer is served. Sinc eI flying back out most of the time in a few hours I do not partake.

However, it was suggested to me recently that I could drink an O'Douls or a Sharp. I do drink those from time to time when I want a beer tasting beverage but not alcohol but I have never violate dthe 8 hour bottle to throtlle rule just in case there is a trace of alcohol. My question is this, does any know if we can drink those N/A beers and still be legal to fly?

Scott

 

[Michael]

The highway patrol says its a no no. I would say NO. It does contain alcohol even though it is a small amount, Any amount is a no go.

 

[gismo]

Many a time I fly into a location and meet a group of people and we have dinner or a picnic, etc. and beer is served. Sinc eI flying back out most of the time in a few hours I do not partake.

However, it was suggested to me recently that I could drink an O'Douls or a Sharp. I do drink those from time to time when I want a beer tasting beverage but not alcohol but I have never violate dthe 8 hour bottle to throtlle rule just in case there is a trace of alcohol. My question is this, does any know if we can drink those N/A beers and still be legal to fly?

Scott

If there's any alcohol according to the label, you shouldn't drink it and fly within 8 hours. Even mouthwash containing alcohol could be a problem AFaIK. The only exception I know of is foods cooked in Rum or other alcohol and that's because the cooking boils off the bad stuff.

 

[Skip Miller]

The highway patrol says its a no no. I would say NO. It does contain alcohol even though it is a small amount, Any amount is a no go.

I think Michael is right. Remember, there is no law against drinking and driving (that I know of). The law is against driving while impaired, which is defined by a blood alcohol level of x% (differs by state). The FAR is pretty clear: No flying within 8 hours of drinking. It does not matter how much you drink, nor what your blood alcohol level is.

So, strictly speaking, the answer is: No alcohol "free" beers, because they are not alcohol free. Would one matter? No more than a few sips of scotch would matter. Don't do it!

-Skip

 

[Len Lanetti]

When I was an airport bum the subject once came up with an FAA inspector...his suggestion was that even the appearance of impropriety should be avoided. Personally, I agree.

Perhaps Ed G with his chemistry background will chime in on the amount of alcohol in the alcohol free beers...my recollection is that one alcohol free beer has the same amount of alcohol as in a loaf of bread.

Remember 8 hours from loaf to lift. :<)

Len

 

[Richard]

When I was an airport bum the subject once came up with an FAA inspector...his suggestion was that even the appearance of impropriety should be avoided. Personally, I agree.

Me too.

Remember 8 hours from loaf to lift. :<)

I thought it was 50 feet. Isn't it 50 feet?

 

[AirBaker]

How stupid would you feel for drinking a near beer and then getting busted?

A pilot up by my parents was at a party. Had a few drinks. Remembered he had to move his airplane. Started it up and taxi'ed away when he clipped another wing. Everyone knew it was an accident and he had no intention of flying. Still... got busted.

 

[poadeleted20]

The labels on these beverages say they "contain less than 0.5% alcohol by volume." 14 CFR 91.17 prohibits flying "within 8 hours after consumption of any alcoholic beverage." 27 CFR 16.10 (among other similar definitions in the CFR) defines "Alcoholic beverage" as "any beverage in liquid form which contains not less than one-half of one percent (.5%) of alcohol by volume and is intended for human consumption." This is echoed in the state definitions of alchololic beverage in at least Virginia and Texas. Therefore, unless the FAA has some other definition of alcoholic beverage, I do not believe the consumption of non-alcoholic beers of less than 0.5% alcohol falls within the scope of 14 CFR 91.17. I'm emailing the Eastern Region Counsel to confirm this.

However, that does not mean you can safely drink this stuff and then fly. Part of the answer to that involves just how much alcohol is in it -- 0.49% or 0.00049%. I'm going to have to do some research on that and get back to you.

 

[Greebo]

And also, what if you drink six of them quickly? If they contain .49% and you drink six of them, then you've cumulatively consumed nearly the same amount of alcohol as in a single 3% alcoholic drink.

IMO, better to avoid. Drink iced tea and pretend its a long island.

 

[poadeleted20]

Update: Anheuser-Busch says the alcohol content of O'Doul's is 0.4% ABV. The way I figure it, you'd have to drink 12 of them in an hour for an FAA-average 170-lb man to get his BAC above 0.01%. All the above is now in the hands of the Eastern Region Counsel and Flight Surgeon for consideration.

 

[ScottM]

Update: Anheuser-Busch says the alcohol content of O'Doul's is 0.4% ABV. The way I figure it, you'd have to drink 12 of them in an hour for an FAA-average 170-lb man to get his BAC above 0.01%. All the above is now in the hands of the Eastern Region Counsel and Flight Surgeon for consideration.

Thanks Ron.

I have been avoiding them because ther is trace alcohol and like others have said the appearence of drinking prior to flying is bad. But I am curious what the FAA does say.

 

[Len Lanetti]

Update: Anheuser-Busch says the alcohol content of O'Doul's is 0.4% ABV. The way I figure it, you'd have to drink 12 of them in an hour for an FAA-average 170-lb man to get his BAC above 0.01%. All the above is now in the hands of the Eastern Region Counsel and Flight Surgeon for consideration.

A few questions that come to mind.

What is the precision at which alcohol can be detected by breath test or blood test? In other words, what is the minimum amount that can be detected?

Would a person smell like that had been drinking beer that contained alcohol after consuming one, a few or several of the "almost no alcohol" beers?

How do these near beers taste?

Len

 

[gismo]

A few questions that come to mind.

What is the precision at which alcohol can be detected by breath test or blood test? In other words, what is the minimum amount that can be detected?

AFaIK the breath tests are good down to about 0.025% with an accuracy of about +/-0.01%. Blood tests are way more accurate and can probably detect the alcohol in your plasma that you picked up by breathing the same air as a couple drunks at the bar last night.

Would a person smell like that had been drinking beer that contained alcohol after consuming one, a few or several of the "almost no alcohol" beers?

For the most part, the alcohol on one's breath actually comes from your bloodstream as it passes through your lungs. Granted if you just gargled with whiskey, you will have some alcohol on your breath, but I would expect that if you had consumed two near beers with .4% alcohol more than ten minutes ago, no one could smell alcohol on your breath.

How do these near beers taste?

Can't help you there, I don't like "normal" beer all that much so I don't see much point in a taste-alike.

 

[Earthroamer]

The look of doing so can be negative. Not the same thing but close. I got off a charter and went to a local Fridays to eat dinner. The place was packed and the only place to eat was the bar. So I sat down and had dinner with a glass of ice water with lemon (mainly b/c I was dehydrated). The two guys I had previously dropped off in that city came in and sat near by. They just looked at me a couple of seconds. The bartender instantly figured it out, her and I were talking about aviation (she's a pilot). She said loudly, "sir would you like some more water with lemon?" I tipped her well. It just looks bad to see a pilot that you do not personally know appearing to tie one on.

One of my close friends has a similar story except he works for Delta and two bar patrons saw him the night before. They walked onto his a/c the next day. He wasn't drinking but still did a double take. I am not saying its right or worng....

Brent

 

[Dakota Duce]

If there's any alcohol according to the label, you shouldn't drink it and fly within 8 hours. Even mouthwash containing alcohol could be a problem AFaIK.

14 CFR 91.17 prohibits flying "within 8 hours after consumption of any alcoholic beverage." 27 CFR 16.10 (among other similar definitions in the CFR) defines "Alcoholic beverage" as "any beverage in liquid form which contains not less than one-half of one percent (.5%) of alcohol by volume and is intended for human consumption."

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Now here comes the old curve ball.

MOUTHWASH is defined as.. "a antiseptic liquid preparation for cleaning the mouth and teeth, or freshening the breath".

CONSUME is defined as.. "to eat or drink in great quantity".

Using both those definitions, there is NO way one could even come close to thinking mouthwash is made for the sole purpose of drinking. If a case is brought against 8hrs/flying and mouthwash, then one needs to be brought against flying within 8 hours of most any type medical intervention to a pilot.

What the heck am I talking about!?

You go to the DR.'s to have a physical. As part of the physical you have your blood tested. Wasn't a alcohol swab used to clean the area before using the needle? Maybe you've decided to get a booster shot.. or a flu shot. What if you strained your back while working out in the yard. You decide to apply a little muscle rub to the area. "Can't fly for 8 hours now!" Why? Doesn't the rub have 10% menthol alcohol in it? And wouldn't it be absorbed into the body?

Considering the multitudes of ways one could inadvertently make contact with all those FAA illegal substances.. and wanting to make sure they abided by the 8 hour rule, a pilot would spend 80 percent of their time self grounded.

That's just my thought.. for whatever it means.

Dakota Duce

"May All Your Flights Be Of Good Weather!"

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

The look of doing so can be negative. Not the same thing but close. I got off a charter and went to a local Fridays to eat dinner. The place was packed and the only place to eat was the bar. So I sat down and had dinner with a glass of ice water with lemon (mainly b/c I was dehydrated). The two guys I had previously dropped off in that city came in and sat near by. They just looked at me a couple of seconds. The bartender instantly figured it out, her and I were talking about aviation (she's a pilot). She said loudly, "sir would you like some more water with lemon?" I tipped her well. It just looks bad to see a pilot that you do not personally know appearing to tie one on.

One of my close friends has a similar story except he works for Delta and two bar patrons saw him the night before. They walked onto his a/c the next day. He wasn't drinking but still did a double take. I am not saying its right or worng....

Brent

All this alcohol discussion helped me remember the Drunk Pilots routine that non other than the Man Show hosts did to perfection with their uniformed pilot and co-pilot in real airports and their cocktail bars with lots of PAX all around.

For pilots, it will make you laugh out loud and cringe at the same time. It is Oscar material !

 

[Len Lanetti]

Dakota,

Note that mouthwash will through off a field breath test indicating a false positive.

Len

 

[Skip Miller]

CONSUME is defined as.. "to eat or drink in great quantity".

You go to the DR.'s to have a physical. As part of the physical you have your blood tested. Wasn't a alcohol swab used to clean the area before using the needle? Maybe you've decided to get a booster shot.. or a flu shot. What if you strained your back while working out in the yard. You decide to apply a little muscle rub to the area. "Can't fly for 8 hours now!" Why? Doesn't the rub have 10% menthol alcohol in it? And wouldn't it be absorbed into the body?

Considering the multitudes of ways one could inadvertently make contact with all those FAA illegal substances..

"Making contact with" is not the same as consuming, by the definition you posted.

-Skip

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Perhaps Ed G with his chemistry background will chime in on the amount of alcohol in the alcohol free beers...my recollection is that one alcohol free beer has the same amount of alcohol as in a loaf of bread."

I need to break bread at your house... For that matter, if you want to worry about NA beer, stay away from home bottled root beer and a number of other foods.

As someone else noted, by law NA beer must be less than 0.5% alcohol. For all intents and purposes, NA beer is made the same way as "normal" beer, after which the manufacturer must go to additional expense to remove alcohol so as to meet the NA labeling requirement. I would expect most NA beer to be as close to 0.5% as possible without endangering a labeling (and ATF) bust for going over the limit. IOW, if I'm surprised at O'Doul's being 0.4%, the shock is that it isn't slightly more.

As to the FAR legalities? I know Ron asked the regional counsel for an opinion, but the legal reading is pretty simple. FARs say you can't consume an alcoholic beverage. US law defines "alcoholic beverage" as greater than 0.5%. Done. I'll be shocked if the FAA comes back with a different interpretation since it will result in a very complicated beverage/food situation (i.e. root beer).