N/A Money manager charges / %.

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by bluesideup, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. bluesideup

    bluesideup Line Up and Wait

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    Hi everyone.
    I was talking to someone about what some money managers charge nowadays and finding that some are charging 1.25% regardless of if they make or lose money. Is that typical?
    Last I've had anything to do with some they charged .25% and if they did not have any gains they did not charge anything. This was with a 401K in company but I would think that the difference should not be that much?
    Any recent experience with any of them?
    Thanks
     
  2. Cricket1

    Cricket1 Pre-Flight

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    If you are talking about a fee based advisor, 1.25% annual is normal, although that figure is most likely based on total amount of $ under management. A sliding scale, so 1.25% might be for anything under say $250K, then 1% for $250k-500K. Then maybe .85% for 500K-1MM etc. You should not pay any commissions when the advisor buys or sells securities though out the year. Usually taken out of your account quarterly by selling a tiny bit.
     
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  3. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    FYI: Make sure you're comparing the same fees. 401Ks can have a different fee structure.
     
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  4. jsstevens

    jsstevens Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    401K fees are negotiated based on total money managed, not your balance. I know my previous company had the fastest growing 401K the managers had ever managed and they negotiated lower fees just about every year based on the new totals in the program. If you’re part of a big one they are quite low.
     
  5. NoBShere

    NoBShere Pre-takeoff checklist

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    This may be a bit off topic from op. A friend of mine is a financial planner and has helped us for years. To date, I believe he has done a good job with helping us. Now that I believe we are within 10 years of retirement, he doesn't seem to be as knowledgeable as I would like regarding retirement. I'm not looking for someone to say we need X dollars to retire at 55. I am (at least I think) looking for someone to recommend how to calculate what we would need each year (averaged) and what the risks are related to the assumptions used to come up with that average. That way we can accept those risks or pad the numbers by working another year, transition to part time work for flexibility or something like that. Am i off base to think that is possible or reasonable? I also don't want someone that is just going to tell me what I want to hear. I just hope retirement planning isn't a complete guessing game. For the record, I have been retirement planning since I graduated college. Its just now is getting to the time to see how well (or not) we have done to see if we can pull the early retirement trigger. To tie it back to the OP, assuming that is a reasonable request, what kind of fee structure would I be looking at for such a service.

    Thanks, and I realize that this is a very big topic with a tremendous amount of variables.
     
  6. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 En-Route

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    Yes, they either charge by amount under their control or by commissions on transactions.
    Or you could go to Vanguard and do it yourself. It’s not that difficult, it just requires discipline.
     
  7. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    what i learned was no 3rd party can answer those questions to the level of detail you need. It's something you need to personally figure out in order to succeed and more importantly enjoy retirement.

    I started researching at 30 and retired at 52. Used "free" 3rd party input to learn then as guidance but i made all the decisions for my 401k and IRAs. Once retired rolled 401 into Vanguard/American Century funds which provides more "free" guidance at my current balance level and no additional fees.

    While many people rely on advisors for everything on retirement I never felt that route provided the best bang for buck with no guarantee. I did/do subscribe to a Morningstar premium acct which provides a wide variety of tools and learning opportunities but i actually felt i gain the most from interacting on a retirement forum at early-retirement.org. Their FIREcalc retirement calculator allowed me to run various scenarios on how my money could react in the "future" which is what you are basically paying an advisor to do. FIREcalc is free.

    I found retirement planning isnt rocket science and the same risks are there regardless if you or them work the numbers.
     
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  8. David Megginson

    David Megginson Pattern Altitude

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    Unless you're very affluent (say, >=$20m in investments), you may not need that level of active management in the ETF age.

    You can buy low-overhead (<=0.25%) ETFs that passively track indices for whatever you want — mid-cap growth stocks, BRICs, blue-chip dividend stocks, fallen-angel high-yield (junk) bonds, real estate, or whatever — and then just leave them alone until you need to buy/sell to rebalance.
     
  9. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    1% /yr means you will have half the balance you would have, after 30 years. The fee's matter.

    Fees are lower than they used to be, for the most part. But there are still plenty of companies charging AUM (Asset Under Management) fees for little value.

    There are people that will just charge you a flat rate hourly. Most people would be better off with this model, and it isn't like you need new advice every year.
     
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  10. NoBShere

    NoBShere Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks. I thought that may be the case. its one of those decisions that seems daunting as the last thing I want to do is have to "re-enter" the workforce. The more I think about it, I'm probably looking for more of a second opinion. My disdain for corporate america (and people in general some days) has me wanting to retire and want to make sure my retirement planning is reasonable. Given that I'm not the first person to retire, I would think i could learn from others.
     
  11. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    FYI: my constructive 2nd opinions came from my accountant and estate/business attorney during the course of finalizing my retire plan.
    Definitely this. I spoke with over 100 people who were about to retire, just retired, been retired. The latter 2 groups collectively stated dont wait leave a year earlier. It was these conversations that made the final decision easier.

    But if there is one place to start your quest, thats to determine down to the nickel what are your current actual living expenses. And it not the figure on your pay stub. Once you figure this out the rest will tend to fall in place as more times than not you'll find you are a lot cheaper than you think. I was. Good luck. Life is good on the darkside where everyday is Saturady!
     
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  12. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator Final Approach

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    I would think any Certified Financial Planner should be able to run through your current financial situation along with several scenarios in order to help you visualize what the impact of those decisions would be. It may cost a few hundred dollars, but that's what they do for a living and they should be well-versed in most of the typical tax avoidance methods and make recommendations for your portfolio.
     
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  13. NoBShere

    NoBShere Pre-takeoff checklist

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    My better half has been telling me that I'm overestimating our expenses. She also has data to back it up. of course I translate that to "so we can afford a plane!"
     
  14. TCABM

    TCABM Pattern Altitude

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    Do you know what your average income and expenses will be each year in retirement?

    The big risk I see in your plan is health insurance costs between 55 and when you qualify for Medicare. That can be a significant expense.
     
  15. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

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    Yes it can be. However, there are work arounds depending on your finances and how flexible they are for that period until you hit medicare. For example, one option is to set up things to live off savings until 65. This also requires one to manage your income so you qualify for marketplace healthcare. This also goes back to knowing your actual living expenses.
     
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  16. airdale

    airdale Pattern Altitude

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    Complex subject, obviously. This stuff is kind of a hobby of mine. One of the things I do is to differentiate "Investment Advisor" from "Financial Advisor." The former concentrate strictly on investments; often they are employed by a brokerage house. Usually they call themselves Financial Advisors or Financial Planners but they are not -- by my definition. A true financial advisor is involved with the breadth of clients' financial lives, saving for college (often via 529 plans), saving for retirement, planning for retirement, health care strategies prior to Medicare age, Social Security strategies, etc. You get the idea.

    What you pay and what you get via a 401(k) can vary quite a bit. Here I'll talk about the kind of issues that arise when you consider hiring someone privately to help you with your finances. In general I would advise looking for a true Financial Advisor. Investment advice in general is not worth the money, even if it is free.

    The industry separates advisors into two piles in a different way. "Fee-Only" advisors are not paid commissions on products that they sell. Most commonly they charge a fee based on portfolio assets (Assets Under Management aka AUM). Licensing usually shows Series 65 or Series 66 "Registered Investment Advisor," but some advisors inherit the RIA status of their RIA employers. Commission-based advisors are commonly licensed to only sell insurance or are Series 7 licensed broker sales representatives. RIAs are legally fiduciaries (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fiduciary.asp) and must act in their clients' best interests. Commission based advisors are only limited to "suitable" investments, which may be high-cost funds or other financial products. Stay completely away from commission-based people; ask for a letter documenting that the person you're working with has a fiduciary responsibility to you. ALWAYS (always) check a potential advisor at https://brokercheck.finra.org/

    RIA fees vary with the size of the portfolio. At $1M you should pay no more than 1%, maybe a little less. I am on the investment committee of a small nonprofit and our RIA is charging about 0.6% on $5M. That is a tad high IMO but we are kind of high maintenance because of complex fund structure and flow. At the low end, Vanguard charges as little as 0.3% but that is only for investment advice, not comprehensive financial advice. (Fees are sometimes referred to in terms of "basis points," 1/100th of one percent. So Vanguard's fee would be 30bps.)

    Finally, there are advisors who charge hourly or per-job rates. These somewhat-rare birds are also referred to as "fee only," hence there can be confusion. https://www.garrettplanningnetwork.com/ seems to have a good reputation as a way to find fee-for-services advisors but I have no personal experience.

    "Certified Financial Planners" (aka CFP) is kind of a mixed bag. CFP certificates are issued by a private nonprofit corporation where the president makes over $1M/year. The more CFPs he generates, the more dues money he collects. So, for example, a college degree is required but Mortuary Science is just fine. Economists call this an "agency problem." Despite what some will tell you, possession of a CFP does not make a person a fiduciary. All that said, a CFP is a useful credential but it is not magic. Caveat emptor.

    There is a half-century of data showing that professional investment managers do not add value to a portfolio versus a passive portfolio benchmark. Here are some reading recommendations to introduce you to that subject: "If You Can" by William Bernstein https://www.etf.com/docs/IfYouCan.pdf (free 16 page download), "The Coffee House Investor" by Bill Schultheis https://www.coffeehouseinvestor.com/ (This is Bill's first book; read it before reading his second one.), and "The Bogleheads Guide to Investing" by Taylor Larimore et al https://www.amazon.com/Bogleheads-Guide-Investing-Taylor-Larimore/dp/0470067365 These three are pretty easy going. A step up is "Winning the Loser's Game" by Charles Ellis; make sure to get the May 2021 edition.
     
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  17. David Megginson

    David Megginson Pattern Altitude

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    A Random Walk Down Wall Street is another great read.
     
  18. airdale

    airdale Pattern Altitude

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    Absolutely. That is the grandaddy of them all. That said, though, IMO the new edition of Ellis' book is the current best choice between the two.
     
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  19. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Another interesting book to read is "Confused by Randomness" by Taleb. People who tell you that they are interpreting the market are little more justified than those who tell you what the number coming up on the roulette wheel is based on past rolls.

    My financial advisor earns his keep since I choose not to fret over things. He's done well by me.
    Far better than the fraudulent Merril Lynch fund advisors that ran our corporate 401k who managed to tank the funds even in a bull market.

    I'm also a FINRA arbitrator now. When you have a complaint about how your broker done you wrong, you end up talking to us first.
     
  20. wilkersk

    wilkersk Pattern Altitude

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    I've met with a couple of different financial advisors who advertise "fiduciary" services. From what I can tell, around 1 to 1.5% per year of "assets under management" is pretty typical. Some of them will quote you an hourly rate if you just want advice or help with a specific task.

    I never did sign on with one. I just couldn't see what the value is. The most complicated thing I have to do is to set up a couple of back-door Roth IRA conversions. And, at my modest level, its not gonna be a big deal. The tax man is gonna get his cut no matter what happens. I'm not wealthy enough to live on margin and die in trust.
     
  21. David Megginson

    David Megginson Pattern Altitude

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    Even if you pay a few hundred dollars/hour for consultations, you'll end up way ahead in a fee-for-service arrangement (like with a lawyer or accountant). Handing over 1.25% of your total assets every year will cost you tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars over time.
     
  22. NoBShere

    NoBShere Pre-takeoff checklist

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    that’s really helpful. You confirmed some of my thoughts and that while we have prepared well to date, we need to adjust our thought process based upon where we are at in the game.
     
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  23. airdale

    airdale Pattern Altitude

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    Yes; Nassim Taleb has written several worthwhile books though he can be kind of a lunatic at times. Quibble: Title is actually "Fooled by Randomness." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fooled_by_Randomness)

    Taleb's main theme in the book is the risk arising when someone has gotten lucky and, from that, concluded that he is a genius. It occurs to me that is something that we as pilots should probably pay attention to as well.
     
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  24. jsstevens

    jsstevens Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Black Swan and Antifragile are also good reads by Talib.
     
  25. Mikey B

    Mikey B Pre-Flight

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    Another vote here for "hourly fee only" advice, especially on investment or retirement topics other than which stocks to pick. We hired one (actually a member of the Garrett network mentioned above, though since retired) when we were making our when-to-retire decision. She ran analyses of our assets, Monte Carlo simulations of potential future market developments, etc., and determined that we could safely retire under any foreseeable scenario. So we did, and a year later the unforeseeable happened (the 2008-09 meltdown), and I had to go back to work for a few years.

    Moral of the story: be careful, make smart decisions, but still be ready to execute a backup plan if it all goes to hell.
     
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  26. David Megginson

    David Megginson Pattern Altitude

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    Yeah, there are always assumptions that can go wrong. In July 1914, Western Europe hadn't had a major, contintent-wide war for 99 years, and in the new age of global trade and instant communication, it seemed impossible that there could ever be one again, because everyone would lose.

    Fast forward to August 1914…
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021
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  27. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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  28. airdale

    airdale Pattern Altitude

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    Good. Interestingly, it assumes that the user has already vanquished some of the ripoff artists:

    "An important note: This calculator presumes you are shopping only for no-load, no-transaction-fee funds — mutual funds that don't charge a sales commission or fees for purchase or sale of shares."​
     
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  29. cowtowner

    cowtowner Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I have a couple of Hedge Funds that I invest in, 2/20 used to be the fee structure. Now the fees seem to be dropping, my wife invested in a private REIT the other day that the fees were outrageous. Like 5/25. We will see how it does.
     
  30. airdale

    airdale Pattern Altitude

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    With respect, why would you do that? Hedge fund fees are dropping because that majority of people have noticed that they are not good investments. IIRC CALPERS has completely eliminated hedge funds from their portfolios.

    With those REIT fees I'm guessing that this was not a small local deal where you knew the promoters. To me, any large deal offered to retail investors is almost guaranteed to be stinky. If it was a good deal, the promoters would have been successful selling it to heavy hitters and institutions. Selling this kind of thing to retail investors is a giant PITA, not to be undertaken unless selling to more competent investors (who write large checks) was not possible.
     
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  31. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    You can just put the total fee in there, AUM etc.

    Most people dropped front load fees long ago, but certainly not all.
     
  32. cowtowner

    cowtowner Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Who says my wife doesn't write large checks?

    Hint: My wife isn't a retail investor.
     
  33. cowtowner

    cowtowner Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I have two that have returned twice the S&P over the past 5 years.

    CALPERS has more problems than hedge fund fees.
     
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  34. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    Before or after fees, and out of how many? I Wonder what they will do the next 5 years? It isn’t that an active fund can’t beat a good index each year, 13% of them do every year. The problem is figuring out which one will do it next year, and the year after that, etc. then trying to get them to beat the market by the 1,2 or 3% fees. It doesn’t matter what happened the past 5 years because it won’t be repeated.

    Big institutional investors are just as susceptible to this way of thinking, if not more so. “If we just project 8% instead if 6% then we won’t have to fund this as much”
     
  35. David Megginson

    David Megginson Pattern Altitude

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    Well explained. More background reading (for others) here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
     
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  36. Craig

    Craig Line Up and Wait

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    Mom and Dad had an excellent broker for about 30 years. His take was that he advised what and how much to purchase or sell and that a fee paid retirement advisor would advise on the retirement plan based on what was at the brokerage at the time. The numbers changed over the years, but the combination put Mom and Dad in the position that they could do anything they wanted without any financial concerns til they passed.

    We’re just starting the process of finding someone to help run all the SS scenarios for our situation and start gaming the retirement date for us.
     
  37. Lachlan

    Lachlan En-Route

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    Our retirement accounts scare us. They earn/increase in value much faster than we earn our paychecks. Wonder how long that will last? I have the net amount in my portfolio now that I dreamed I’d have 15 years from now! (Enough to retire early.) Is it possible to believe in it? So much uncertainty, it’s hard to anticipate the unexpected when that “unexpected” could be nearly anything. It’s an interesting time in which we live, to be sure.
     
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  38. IK04

    IK04 En-Route PoA Supporter

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    What's a "Money Manager?" Is that like a wallet?

    Mine is usually empty...
     
  39. Craig

    Craig Line Up and Wait

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    Sounds like you are starting to get some aversion to risk with the accounts. You need to talk to your financial advisor and discuss the possibility of making some investment changes. Nothing wrong with that, unless one gets overly nervous and moves too far into what is considered to be "safe" investments.
     
  40. airdale

    airdale Pattern Altitude

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    Yes. Also, @ Lachlan, I'd suggest this book: "The Coffee House Investor" by Bill Schultheis https://www.coffeehouseinvestor.com/ (This is Bill's first book; read it before reading his second one.) The book is very low key but does a good job of dealing with the feelings you're having. It even includes a recipe for pumpkin pie.

    Bill has some short blog posts on his web site, too, if you'd like to get the flavor of his advice.
     
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