My Son and Alcohol

garyb said:
While my heart goes out to the OP, I have to wonder. Do they drink? Is there booze in the house? If a child grows up around drinkers, is it any surprise that the child will also drink? My parents never drank. There was never alcohol in the house. Same with my wife. As a consequence, we never drank and there is no alcohol in our house. The consequence of that is that none of our children drink and they will never end up like the OP's child.
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Incredibly wishful thinking and I doubt that makes a difference what so ever. One of the worst drinkers I know came from a house with no alcohol.

I think one is by far better off to be a good example of what responsible alcohol consumption consists of and realize that if a child wants to drink before they are 21 they will do so. The best think you can do is hope the responsible consumption they always saw will be remembered and make sure the child knows they can always call you for a ride without terrible consequences.

Just my opinion. FWIW I was raised around major alcohol abuse and as a result of that I absolutely did not touch alcohol. I did start to drink once I turned 21, tried to use some common sense to avoid trouble.

I was always afraid that if I drank I would become that which I saw the pain of my entire childhood (alcoholism). I took me a long time to realize that I'm my own person and I can control what I do. I've never been addicted to anything and have always been able to stop anything. That didn't change with alcohol.
 
This is deeply personal to me and I only have one thing to add. If you haven't known the pain of a loved one dealing with an addiction or are not a professional who deals with this and want to chime in with advice, you should just STFU.
 
Unregistered said:
I am a long-time member of the POA and need some advice. I would rather remain anonymous.
We have a personal problem with one of our sons. He is 28 years old and now living at home with us. Before we moved him back home, he had lost his job and wasn't able to or even really motivated to find another job. He wasn't eating and had lost a lot weight. This is when we found out he had a drinking problem. He said he had a problem with alcohol since college. He had a DUI and his court case is pending.
He is now living with us and has recently started another job. For the first few months, he didn't have any alcohol because we disabled his car; he was eating well and was gaining weight. He didn't have any physical alcohol withdrawal symptoms. He does smoke a lot. However, since he has money now, he has begun drinking again in great amounts. We have told him no drinking while he lives here (and he agreed to this), but he is not adhering to this. He says drinking is the only thing he enjoys and he doesn't see the problem. He will be going for an alcohol assessment because of his DUI, but has said he doesn't want to get counseling / therapy.
We want to move him out of our home to his own apartment, but have concerns he will lose his job after he leaves here because of his drinking and resulting performance issues. If he loses this job, we don't see how he can get another one, because he had so much trouble finding this one.
He has a car, but when he is sentenced for his DUI, will probably lose the right to drive. He says he plans to drive anyway. We know he has driven while intoxicated since he started his job. We gave him rides to/from work to stop this, but he says now that he needs his car during the day to make bank deposits for work. He frequently calls at the end of his shift saying he has to stay later. We now assume he is leaving on time and is going to buy alcohol.
He simply does not seem to care about anything. (Ex: didn't file his taxes, didn't register his car when due, etc). He would be content to live the rest of his life in a small bedroom, playing with his laptop. Who wouldn't? Free room and board! We haven't yet starting rent because he didn't have money and now we just want him out. It seems like there is a component of depression because of the way he acts. He lies, but they are always potentially feasible. We would like to believe him, but don't think we can. We just took the door to his room off so he can't drink in his room...hopefully.
What can we do to help him? We don't want to enable him to continue what he's doing, but it's very hard to just let him fall apart, which is what will probably happen. This is just killing us. We know we need to seek counseling for ourselves. We need to end this soon. What should we do?
I know that this is the Internet, but I also know there are some medical professionals and other good people who use this site who may be able to offer some advice.
Thanks to everyone who responds.
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I'm sorry to hear that you are having to deal with this. I know how upsetting and frustrating this can be from my own experience. Unfortunately, the bottom line is that the only person who can solve his problem is himself. He has to determine that he has a problem and a will to solve it.

That said, if he is still living with you OR if you are paying for anything of his (and he chooses not to quit), you can put restrictions on him, but just understand that if he isn't ready to stop, there is nothing at all that you can do to make him stop.

This is the cold hard truth about alcohol and drug abuse (is there a difference?).

Good luck to you!
 
James_Dean said:
This is deeply personal to me and I only have one thing to add. If you haven't known the pain of a loved one dealing with an addiction or are not a professional who deals with this and want to chime in with advice, you should just STFU.
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AMEN:yes:
 
garyb said:
I don't know if that's the case, but it's a valid point. Genetics certainly plays a role, but it's a minor role. One may be genetically predisposed to have a certain condition, but that is vastly overshadowed by environmental factors. In other words, it comes down to our choices. (Genetics is the liberals favorite way out: "I can't help it. The god I don't beleive in made me this way.")
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Others have taken you to task for being partisan, I'll focus on the fact that you've got the science wrong.

Addictive behavior is 40-70% genetic depending on the substance at hand. Alcohol itself is around 50%. That's a very high level of influence.
 
flyingriki said:
Sounds like a bum, poorly raised. Now his folks are paying for their inattention to his upbringing. Has no self worth, no decent values and no motivation to succeed. There's no magic bullet to fix a lousy liberal childhood. Too bad they don't have a draft....
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The other evening we were watching the news about Mr Foley being executed.
There is the picture of this Islamist standing behind this poor young man. He is ready to kill this man that he doesn't know; he doesn't know if the man is guilty of anything and knows nothing about the young man's background and family but he doesn't care. All he wants is to destroy this man and his family.
We couldn't believe how anyone could be so vicious and then we read your post.
It must be hard to be you.
Thank you.
 
garyb said:
I don't know if that's the case, but it's a valid point. Genetics certainly plays a role, but it's a minor role. One may be genetically predisposed to have a certain condition, but that is vastly overshadowed by environmental factors. In other words, it comes down to our choices. (Genetics is the liberals favorite way out: "I can't help it. The god I don't beleive in made me this way.")

While my heart goes out to the OP, I have to wonder. Do they drink? Is there booze in the house? If a child grows up around drinkers, is it any surprise that the child will also drink? My parents never drank. There was never alcohol in the house. Same with my wife. As a consequence, we never drank and there is no alcohol in our house. The consequence of that is that none of our children drink and they will never end up like the OP's child.

To answer your question:
We have been married for 35 years .
My wife had never smoked or drank.
I drink maybe 1or 2 beers per week and don't smoke .We have 2 other children and they don't drink or smoke. There is no history of drugs or alcohol abuse in our families past history. And we are far from being liberals as someone suggested, not that there is anything wrong with that.
Don't be so sure my friend ,you never know what future will bring and I hope you never have to face that.
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This thread is really affecting me.

I grew up in a household with an alcoholic parent. I think that makes me less tolerant of addicts than I should be. I understand them, and know that I can love them even if they're not good to live with, but I can't condone or support the behaviors.

I've survived the lies, theft, cajoling, wheedling, the emotional blackmail and the outright hostility that comes from addicts trying to get you to enable, support or otherwise facilitate their addiction. And I'm over it. I'm finally in a place where I'm ok not caring more about them than they care for themselves. To this day I periodically offer help toward recovery for most of them, but they are so high functioning that I suspect they might never admit they have a problem until something gruesome happens.

So to the OP I guess I would say:act now. Move him three steps away from your life and only orbit back toward him within the context of structured professional help. Otherwise a part of you will get hardened to him, and like me, it might turn out to be permanent. That's too long.
 
I'm the last unreg above. I realized I accidentally edited out a small second paragraph ... In it I disclosed that mom's addictive personality was inherited by a few of my siblings (I come from a really large family). At least two siblings are alcoholic and one has had or has a drug problem. And one of the alcoholics is also addicted to gambling.....

When I mentioned offering help to get clean, it was in reference to them. Not mom, who at 83 is likely going to die with her (now much diminished ) addictions.
 
Henning said:
Nothing, you can do absolutely nothing to help him. You can support him, or you can let him fall, but you cannot help, only he can. You are completely powerless in this matter.
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I have really good friends who are former addicts. My best friend has been trying to recover and my nephew has recovered. Henning is correct.

All you can do is offer advice and wait for him to make the decision. You should not under any circumstances enable. I highly recommend that you contact Al-Anon. http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/ Even if your son will not attend, you should to know how to prevent enabling him.
 
ScottM said:
I have really good friends who are former addicts. My best friend has been trying to recover and my nephew has recovered. Henning is correct.

All you can do is offer advice and wait for him to make the decision. You should not under any circumstances enable. I highly recommend that you contact Al-Anon. http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/ Even if your son will not attend, you should to know how to prevent enabling him.
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+1 :yes:
 
I have a friend who was a step or two worse. Problem was, he kept the job and always had the money (worked hard). After a dui, a second dui, and a dui a week after the 2nd he had no way out. Spent a month or two in real prison and got a shorter sentence by agreeing to rehab (he paid out of pocket for). The rehab center in florida changed his life and he's been sober for 2-3 years. Just about everyone there is angry about it for the first few weeks, but they are very supportive. They also re-teach you how to live and budget. Website is affordableaddictiontreatment.com. I am not a spokesperson haha. You can pm me for more details if you would like.
 
Unregistered said:
I'm the last unreg above. I realized I accidentally edited out a small second paragraph ... In it I disclosed that mom's addictive personality was inherited by a few of my siblings (I come from a really large family). At least two siblings are alcoholic and one has had or has a drug problem. And one of the alcoholics is also addicted to gambling.....

When I mentioned offering help to get clean, it was in reference to them. Not mom, who at 83 is likely going to die with her (now much diminished ) addictions.
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I grew up with 7 siblings, the majority of which got into meth, with basically all of them spending time in jail. Plenty of felons in the group. Most, except, maybe one is on the road to recovery.

We were raised by parents with rather addictive personalities. Not drugs or alcohol actually, it was gambling. They've yet to concour their gambling problem so as a result I don't talk to them anymore.

We were taught we were entitled to things, entitled to satisfy whatever addiction you have. It's not your fault, etc. Made for some less than great results in the kids.

The interesting thing was how my step dad spent his career busting meth dealers and doing undercover work only to have his children get hooked on the ****.
 
You are entitled to feed your addictions, that's free will. That's why no one can help. Unfortunately one is not entitled to be free of consequence. We all have choices in life we make of what we want.
 
jesse said:
We were taught we were entitled to things, entitled to satisfy whatever addiction you have. It's not your fault, etc. Made for some less than great results in the kids.
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Bastardizing the noble science of genetics. You may inherit a predilection toward addiction, it is a heritable personality trait. That doesn't "entitle" you to anything, the consequences for addiction can be catastrophic.
 
steingar said:
Bastardizing the noble science of genetics. You may inherit a predilection toward addiction, it is a heritable personality trait. That doesn't "entitle" you to anything, the consequences for addiction can be catastrophic.
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I would also add that just because your parent or parents has a predilection to something doesn't mean you will have it to the same degree or at all. It only increases the statistical probability. I think the strength of an impulse to do something is partially due to the chemistry or physiology of your brain, whether is is genetic or not. Most people can stop themselves from doing whatever it is, whether it be drinking, overeating, smoking, gambling, doing drugs, etc. but it's much easier for some than others. It's a matter of degree, and for a few it might be impossible. Some who do not have this problem think the problem in others is simply due to a lack of willpower but many who say that have not experienced the same urges, or at least not to the same degree that others have.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
You mean a lousy liberal childhood like George W. Bush? Who is remembered by many of his Yale classmates as a loud uncouth drunk who also got very poor marks? Who refused to serve in Vietnam and who lied to us about Iraq? That kind of childhood?
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Yep and he would be the first person to admit he was a drunk uncouth lout.

As for 'refusing to serve,' he is in very good company apparently.

Exactly what did he lie about us to Iraq? Oh, Yeah, that WMD thing - that they discovered n Syria which ISIS took control of recently - Those WMD's = right?

Sometimes you need to get your cranium out of your rectum in order for your eyes to see and your ears to hear. . .
 
IWhile my heart goes out to the OP, I have to wonder. Do they drink? Is there booze in the house? If a child grows up around drinkers, is it any surprise that the child will also drink? My parents never drank. There was never alcohol in the house. Same with my wife. As a consequence, we never drank and there is no alcohol in our house. The consequence of that is that none of our children drink and they will never end up like the OP's child.

To answer your question:
We have been married for 35 years .
My wife had never smoked or drank.
I drink maybe 1or 2 beers per week and don't smoke .We have 2 other children and they don't drink or smoke. There is no history of drugs or alcohol abuse in our families past history. And we are far from being liberals as someone suggested, not that there is anything wrong with that.
Don't be so sure my friend ,you never know what future will bring and I hope you never have to face that.
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I kind of understand your point - but there are households everywhere in America which have Baptist alcoholics and people raised in alcohol-free homes who drink to excess and those raised by two alcoholics who have no problem drinking alcohol.

When I was a kid in my family everyone had wine - alcohol was not a forbidden thing - you wanted a beer - if you could afford it you could get one. We raised our son the same way - he does not like the taste of beer - he likes rum and coke - and if he wants one he can have one. Alcohol is not this mysterious omg lets drink it and get hammered with my friends thing - its a normal part of life.

There is more alcoholism in more strict environments - the forbidden fruit and all that. But for the most part drunks are drunks and if they don't do alcohol they find something else - drugs - sex - collecting beanie babies -whatever. An addictive personality finds something to become addicted to - a depressive personalty or one which lacks the correct brain chemicals and needs the drink or drug to make them feel 'good' is the hardest nut to crack because that really is a physiological issue. . . .

Then you have your run of the mill alcoholic . . .
 
comanchepilot said:
I kind of understand your point - but there are households everywhere in America which have Baptist alcoholics and people raised in alcohol-free homes who drink to excess and those raised by two alcoholics who have no problem drinking alcohol.

When I was a kid in my family everyone had wine - alcohol was not a forbidden thing - you wanted a beer - if you could afford it you could get one. We raised our son the same way - he does not like the taste of beer - he likes rum and coke - and if he wants one he can have one. Alcohol is not this mysterious omg lets drink it and get hammered with my friends thing - its a normal part of life.

There is more alcoholism in more strict environments - the forbidden fruit and all that. But for the most part drunks are drunks and if they don't do alcohol they find something else - drugs - sex - collecting beanie babies -whatever. An addictive personality finds something to become addicted to - a depressive personalty or one which lacks the correct brain chemicals and needs the drink or drug to make them feel 'good' is the hardest nut to crack because that really is a physiological issue. . . .

Then you have your run of the mill alcoholic . . .
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Wish more people would think about alcohol like you and teach their kids the same. I think we'd have a lot less problems with kids getting hammered on the forbidden fruit when they're 17 then killing themselves in an automobile accident.
 
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Henning said:
Why does he drink? That is the question that needs to be answered before any progress is possible.
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So true, and the question of why is so often a door that needs to be opened - in other circumstances as well. You cannot fix what you do not understand.
 
jesse said:
Wish more people would think about alcohol like you and teach their kids the same. I think we'd have a lot less problems with kids getting hammered on the forbidden fruit when they're 17 then killing themselves in an automobile accident.
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In Europe they do it a bit backwards from the US. There are no legal obstacles to a kid getting served, most of the "clubs" are 14-18 year olds, all drinking if they want. They don't get a driver's license until they're 18 though.
 
Henning said:
In Europe they do it a bit backwards from the US. There are no legal obstacles to a kid getting served, most of the "clubs" are 14-18 year olds, all drinking if they want. They don't get a driver's license until they're 18 though.
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And drinking and driving is not tolerated in most of Europe. The penalties are much more severe for drunk driving.

I like the German attitude toward drinking. At Oktoberfest, with 4 million people drinking beer, served in real, heavy glass steins (something you would never see in America anymore), there are occasionally people who get drunk. (Shocking, right?)

These people aren't arrested. They aren't publicly humiliated, with a mug shot in the local newspaper. They are simply led to a large tent, with dozens of cots, where they can sleep it off.

It's all so...civilized.

I grew up in a German-American family, in a small, largely German-American community in Wisconsin. My first beer was served in an orange juice glass at about age 7. Beer was just another beverage.

That said, of the three kids, one is an alcoholic. :(
 
PaulS said:
Jim, this is the drug I was speaking of, it does not cure anything, but it makes stopping drinking in the first couple of months easier by stopping the cravings. I know someone who used this medicine, under the supervision of a psychiatrist and it help immensely. This was only a piece of the puzzle and the person I know has stopped the medicine and is 6 months sober.

It is not a cure, requires extensive counseling as a condition of prescribing and in the case of the person I know, was given after careful evaluation.

http://alcoholism.about.com/od/meds/a/campral.htm

This link gives a good explanation of what the drug is, check it out.
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Also know a counselor myself who helped a good friend out. He used this route, along with a 3 day ambulatory detox. he had to look to find a dr pretty hard though. Insurance likes intensive outpatient or 30 day inpatient apparently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naltrexone

Also available in a monthly shot.

Both Campral and Naltrexone are widely used in Europe with good success rates where it is treated medically in some manner , without asking someone to 'pray it away.' I've never been to the dr and heard them say 'the oncology ward is backed up, better 'pray that cancer away.' Or a psychiatrist say 'pray away your clinical depression.' So why would he have that as his only option.

The mindset in America is distinctly different in regard to alcohol abuse than it is in Europe. It is entirely too stigmatized here, which keeps people feeling like they should hide it, rather than seek treatment. Making someone feel like a failure, especially when it comes from a loved one, is only going to make them hit the bottle.

Also, the counseling options are wider than just AA. There is Rational Recovery, and SMART. Which take different approaches but provide a similar support network.

Another note. Not everyone has the option, or can afford to take a month off of work to attend a 30 day program. If one is motivated, there are 'Ambulatory 3 day detox' options, and '3 day/weekend' detox options to get the start and clear the head out for the journey ahead.

It takes digging but while not discrediting AA, there are more options that may be a better fit.
 
Jay Honeck said:
And drinking and driving is not tolerated in most of Europe. The penalties are much more severe for drunk driving.

I like the German attitude toward drinking. At Oktoberfest, with 4 million people drinking beer, served in real, heavy glass steins (something you would never see in America anymore), there are occasionally people who get drunk. (Shocking, right?)

These people aren't arrested. They aren't publicly humiliated, with a mug shot in the local newspaper. They are simply led to a large tent, with dozens of cots, where they can sleep it off.

It's all so...civilized.

I grew up in a German-American family, in a small, largely German-American community in Wisconsin. My first beer was served in an orange juice glass at about age 7. Beer was just another beverage.

That said, of the three kids, one is an alcoholic. :(
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I was 9 years old staying in some Pension/Inn for the World Cup when Germany won, it got noisy lol. I wandered downstairs to the bar to see what the commotion was and was promptly handed a beer.:lol:
 
TriGear28 said:
Also know a counselor myself who helped a good friend out. He used this route, along with a 3 day ambulatory detox. he had to look to find a dr pretty hard though. Insurance likes intensive outpatient or 30 day inpatient apparently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naltrexone

Also available in a monthly shot.

Both Campral and Naltrexone are widely used in Europe with good success rates where it is treated medically in some manner , without asking someone to 'pray it away.' I've never been to the dr and heard them say 'the oncology ward is backed up, better 'pray that cancer away.' Or a psychiatrist say 'pray away your clinical depression.' So why would he have that as his only option.

The mindset in America is distinctly different in regard to alcohol abuse than it is in Europe. It is entirely too stigmatized here, which keeps people feeling like they should hide it, rather than seek treatment. Making someone feel like a failure, especially when it comes from a loved one, is only going to make them hit the bottle.

Also, the counseling options are wider than just AA. There is Rational Recovery, and SMART. Which take different approaches but provide a similar support network.

Another note. Not everyone has the option, or can afford to take a month off of work to attend a 30 day program. If one is motivated, there are 'Ambulatory 3 day detox' options, and '3 day/weekend' detox options to get the start and clear the head out for the journey ahead.

It takes digging but while not discrediting AA, there are more options that may be a better fit.
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Please elaborate on the " better fit" and the outcome of the " drug therapys" you mention but do not explain. Geraldine Owen Delaney would loved to have conversed with you so called " experts". A.A. Does not suggest or demand that " you pray anything away" your conception of A.A. Is totally bogus. I do know that shrinks are not very well versed in problems relating to alcohol and usually think some type of drug will "cure it". Many professionals of this ilk are themselves alcoholic or drug dependent. One I used to fly with ran off , drunk with an 18 year old patient. Avoided jail but it was close. Many doctors and nurses show up in A.A. Which is natural as they have the keys to the drug locker. So much for the "drug cure"
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Please elaborate on the " better fit" and the outcome of the " drug therapys" you mention but do not explain. Geraldine Owen Delaney would loved to have conversed with you so called " experts". A.A. Does not suggest or demand that " you pray anything away" your conception of A.A. Is totally bogus. I do know that shrinks are not very well versed in problems relating to alcohol and usually think some type of drug will "cure it". Many professionals of this ilk are themselves alcoholic or drug dependent. One I used to fly with ran off , drunk with an 18 year old patient. Avoided jail but it was close. Many doctors and nurses show up in A.A. Which is natural as they have the keys to the drug locker. So much for the "drug cure"
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Go to some AA meetings in the bible belt and you may change your mind. Not all of them are created equally, obviously, but teaching that you won't beat it without God on your side is not uncommon. If you want to beat it, and don't want to pray, you'll be viewed as a failure. Many of the treatment centers in the same region have the same problem. If you don't play ball with that, you will be viewed as failing, which is less than ideal when it's court ordered.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Please elaborate on the " better fit" and the outcome of the " drug therapys" you mention but do not explain. Geraldine Owen Delaney would loved to have conversed with you so called " experts". A.A. Does not suggest or demand that " you pray anything away" your conception of A.A. Is totally bogus. I do know that shrinks are not very well versed in problems relating to alcohol and usually think some type of drug will "cure it". Many professionals of this ilk are themselves alcoholic or drug dependent. One I used to fly with ran off , drunk with an 18 year old patient. Avoided jail but it was close. Many doctors and nurses show up in A.A. Which is natural as they have the keys to the drug locker. So much for the "drug cure"
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http://alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/1/2.full

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=115980

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/Drug_treatment_for_alcoholism_today.htm

http://www.smartrecovery.org/

http://www.smartrecovery.org/



And, yes, you are I believe 'praying it away' as it's the 6th step.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/the-surprising-failures-of-12-steps/284616/

“asking God to remove defects of character”

So if someone wants to get sober and has either failed with AA or wants a path that is more accustomed to their life, they should not give up just because some obstinant people insist that 'AA is the only way.'

And BTW... He went to a Dr. not just any dr., but a certified one that deals specifically with addictions.
 
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