My Son and Alcohol

Maybe this is NOT the right forum to debate the relative aspects of alcoholism?

Some of you people are right bastards, and it seems those with the most 'compassion' are the most guilty of slinging this debate. How about a little focus on helping the OP maybe?

jeezalou...
 
docmirror said:
Maybe this is NOT the right forum to debate the relative aspects of alcoholism?

Some of you people are right bastards, and it seems those with the most 'compassion' are the most guilty of slinging this debate. How about a little focus on helping the OP maybe?

jeezalou...
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I don't know what more than "follow your heart, get him pro help, and find out why he is only happy when drunk." that can help him. :dunno: There is no single nor good answer to his dilemma. A bit ironically, he's in the same position as his son, only he can help himself.

If he didn't have a drinking and/or drug problem in High School, the likelihood of the issue being genetic predisposition is substantially lowered, if there isn't a problem in the rest of the family you can pretty well eliminate it.

One strong clue here is he says he can only be happy when he's drunk, not that drinking makes him happy. It's the difference between someone who is self medicating and a person who is an addict. Usually if there is a change in behavior some event caused it. Find the event, find why he's only happy when drunk.
 
Henning said:
I don't think alcoholism is any one thing. I think there are multiple reasons people abuse alcohol and lumping them altogether and calling it 'alcoholism' is an ineffective oversimplification. If you can't find out why they are drinking, you cannot help them stop.
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This.

My sibling has what was once called an "addictive personality". Cigarettes, cocaine, booze -- they want it, and they want it all the time.

The question becomes "Why?". Why do these people need to self-medicate themselves at a level that kills themselves?

That is the mental disease. Or weakness. Whatever you call it, it is impossible for sane people to live around, which is why drunks always end up in the same place: alone.
 
Thanks to everyone who responded, for your help.
We're going to our first Al-Anon meeting next week and he's going to an alcohol assessment meeting next week. We'll see if any recommendations come from that. I'm looking into his obtaining health insurance, but will have to see if that works out because of the cost...we may have to help with that. Not sure if he would even go for treatment at this point - I don't think he's hit his "bottom" yet. We just need to continue to work on ourselves so we can be strong enough to do what may have to be done. We appreciate all your posts. It's been a lot of help.
 
Jay Honeck said:
This.

My sibling has what was once called an "addictive personality". Cigarettes, cocaine, booze -- they want it, and they want it all the time.

The question becomes "Why?". Why do these people need to self-medicate themselves at a level that kills themselves?

That is the mental disease. Or weakness. Whatever you call it, it is impossible for sane people to live around, which is why drunks always end up in the same place: alone.
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Like I said, chemical imbalances in the brain. Which chemicals are imbalanced where is a subject for people brighter than I, or perhaps differently specialized. I suspect current "treatments" are sledgehammers to the brain's teacup (if you'll forgive the metaphor) but may offer some relief. That said, there will be no relief until the offending spawn decides he wishes to mend his ways.

Glad we're able to help the OP at least a little. I hope for the best outcome possible given the situation. Good luck.
 
Jay Honeck said:
This.

My sibling has what was once called an "addictive personality". Cigarettes, cocaine, booze -- they want it, and they want it all the time.

The question becomes "Why?". Why do these people need to self-medicate themselves at a level that kills themselves?

That is the mental disease. Or weakness. Whatever you call it, it is impossible for sane people to live around, which is why drunks always end up in the same place: alone.
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Its called OCD. Until one can recognize this in themselves its hard to deal with a lot of things. Most who abuse drugs and alcohol have OCD.
 
1600vw said:
Its called OCD. Until one can recognize this in themselves its hard to deal with a lot of things. Most who abuse drugs and alcohol have OCD.
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In the neighborhood of 1% of the population has OCD.

In the neighborhood of 7% of the population abuses alcohol.

In the neighborhood of 20% of people with OCD are substance abusers.

So a little math tell us that only about 3% or less of substance abusers have OCD.
 
SCCutler said:
I used to believe this way, myself; direct observation of people close to me has changed my way of thinking. Now, the semantics don't really matter; call it "disease," or call it "character weakness"; it really doesn't matter what you call it, as long as you recognize that there is a problem and address it aggressively.

I had a brother-in-law, one of the finest human beings I ever knew in life, brilliant in business, generous and giving in spirit, an inspiration and mentor to hundreds of successful business executives, a board-level executive in a major corporation. For him, it was "social drinking," that got out of hand when, as a result of a corporate acquisition and his age, he was forced into retirement. Several stints in rehab, and he could never stop. I know he never reached the conscious decision, "I would rather drink than live to see my daughter graduate high school," but ultimately, he died as a result of his drinking. I call with the disease, because like any other fatal disease, it stalked him and it killed him.

I actually believe that, on his deathbed, he finally acknowledged and embraced his reality, but we'll never know.



There are many paths to sobriety; AA is but one tool. My observation has been that, for those who identify a home group which "resonates" with them, the support provided by the group members can be compelling. In order for it to work, the participant must acknowledge the problem, and allow themselves to participate in the system; the group can provide the support network which helps the addict recognize the problem, and helps with the staggeringly-hard work of attacking it.

Another observation I have is this: AA (or something like AA) reinforces the reality that addiction isn't something you can simply "fix"; you have to work all the time to mitigate its effects, and thus, successfully participate in life and society.



I like this. Groups I have seen have not emphasized Christianity as the "higher power"; rather, the "higher power" concept is simply important to admitting that, for most people affected, you cannot do it alone.



+1,000,000 - important!
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I am really sorry about your BIL.

One of the lawyers that worked here lost a young daughter to Aplastic anemia. It was heartbreaking. He was a funny, affable guy that clientsand colleagues loved. He was very smart and energetic. He never stopped drinking and smoking after the death of his daughter, and I always had the impression he was hastening away to be with his daughter.
 
docmirror said:
Maybe this is NOT the right forum to debate the relative aspects of alcoholism?

Some of you people are right bastards, and it seems those with the most 'compassion' are the most guilty of slinging this debate. How about a little focus on helping the OP maybe?

jeezalou...
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Every deal with a drunk? I guess I'm a bastard for trying, failing. Tough love works because it gives you separation from the person tearing your family apart. Yep, I'm a bastard for trying to save a life, and failing. Thanks. I really needed that, but hey, you are the expert right?
 
Geico266 said:
Every deal with a drunk? I guess I'm a bastard for trying, failing. Tough love works because it gives you separation from the person tearing your family apart. Yep, I'm a bastard for trying to save a life, and failing. Thanks. I really needed that, but hey, you are the expert right?
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Don't feel bad. My family finally dealt with our sibling by physically separating ourselves from them. In fact, I would be hard pressed to live further away, and still be in the U.S.

These people are crazy, and they often won't rest until everyone around them is crazy, too. Since you cannot help someone who will not help themselves, the best you can do is to protect yourself and your loved ones from them.

It's truly sad, but there is often no other way.
 
Geico266 said:
Every deal with a drunk? I guess I'm a bastard for trying, failing. Tough love works because it gives you separation from the person tearing your family apart. Yep, I'm a bastard for trying to save a life, and failing. Thanks. I really needed that, but hey, you are the expert right?
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Why don't you pay attention for a nanosecond. If you are debating the relative aspects of if it's a disease or not, you aren't helping the OP. No one is calling you out for actually helping, or trying to help, or just lending an ear. How about leaving the debate shyte for some other thread? Get it yet?
 
..it's a nightmare for a good family

Sorry for your troubles OP, but alcoholics lie, and they lie to cover up their lies.

We dealt with my Sister, who was an addicted schizophrenic. I never gave up on her, but I tried to keep us as 'shielded' as possible from her. Addiction or insanity is a tough, very tough thing.

Sister responded well to psychotherapy and some meds before she passed. Maybe the son would benefit from seeing a shrink...getting the right meds ... ? :dunno:
 
It is very very hard to watch someone you love harm themselves, but in trying to help you generally only prolong the inevitable. The longer it goes on the worse the ending may be. Telling your loved one that you no longer wish to have anything to do with them until they get sober is the most heart rending thing in the world. It is worse than a death in the family because they are still alive but you cannot help them and your heart breaks more each day and cannott heal. I come from a family of alcoholics and have three brothers who suffer with this. We all have addictive personalities including me. I do not know how I have avoided it other than I never wanted to be like my father. Two ove my brothers are sober now and have been for 3 and 13 years respectively. The other has been to prison twice and lost everything he ever had because of drinking. The doctors gave him all kinds of meds after back surgery and the problems got worse. I have been trying to help him for years and now know that I became part of his problem. Before he went to jail the second time I was at his house one morning and he started acting strange. He went into his tool shed to get something and was babbling nonsense and becoming extreemly agitated. Then we heard the gunshot. I ran into the shed expecting him to be dead since his last words were that he was going to fix everything right now. I found him in the shed with a gun in his hand and it was clear that at that moment he was completely insane. The shot we heard may have been aimed at his wife who was in the yard, we will never know for sure. I tried to calm him down and he was screaming at me that I never cared about him and that no one did . I told him I loved him and that do what ever I could to help, just please give me the gun. He stared me in the eye for a moment and I knew there was no rational thought in his mind, I could see it in his eyes, I will forever see that moment in my mind. And then he screamed like a wounded animal and the hand with the gun came up, Pointing at me. I jumped him and struggled to take the gun from him. He is ten years older than me and is way stronger than I am. The gun ended up pointed directly between my eyes, a 357, and then he pulled the trigger. In slow motion I saw the hammer fall and then I heard the click when it hit. It did not go off !. During all this one of my other brothers came up and heard the struggle and I yelled for help. With his help I was able to wrench the gun from his hands. He then grabbed a pipe and threatened to hit me in the head and when I let him go he ran from the building, got in his car and took off. He grabbed something off a shelf on the way out of the building and I thought it was another gun. I decided he had to be stopped or someone was going to get hurt very badly. I called the police and told them what happened and what he was driving. I also had no choice but to tell them I believed him to be armed and they needed to know that he would likely use the gun. He came home a few hours later to an empty house since I had gotten his wife to go stay with someone else until this was over. I was watching his house expecting that he would return. I called the police and they sent the SWAT team. They tried to talk him out but to no avail. I tried as well but it was not to be. I tried to go in and get him to give up but they restrained me. I finally realized how this was likely going to end. I drew them a floor plan of the house and that there was a large dog a Husky but that the dog was no problem and would probably hide and wimper. After hours of trying their best they stormed the house. Then I heard three gunshots. A part of me died and I knew I would never be the same again.
A few moments later I heard a cop yell what the hell is that !!!. They had just found the Husky which had be shaved almost bald the day before, it really did look pitiful. Then they came out of the house, with my brother walking and in hand cuffs.
The three gunshots I heard were actually flash bang grenades. No one was hurt , thank god. He ended up in jail for the second time for having the guns and being a convicted felon. He spent two years in jail and they got him off all of the medications his so called doctors had given him. He planned on staying with either myself or my sister when he got out and I told the court I would not allow it. I have a wife to protect and my sister would only enable him if he started drinking. He would be a danger to her and my mother. I picked him up when he was released and when he got in the car, I told him that he I would take him were ever he wanted to go but that he could not stay with any of us. He had no place to go. I checked into a motel and told him I would pay for it for thirty days and then he was on his own. He found a house to rent and I helped him to begin to get back on his feet. He has since learned to stand on his own again and is doing well. He looks and acts better tha he has in twenty years. He has asked for nothing for 8 months and is trying hard. I have seen no signs of drinking and have made it plain that if he goes back to drinking I never want to see or hear from him again. I love my brother and it is truly a joy to have the good person I once knew , reappear. It is now just one day at the time but there is reason to hope at least. But I meant what I told him and I will keep my word if I have to.
Please do not wait !!!!. Get him help and if he refuses then you will have done all that you can. As long as he is in your home and drinking, you and your wife are hurting him by becoming his enablers. I know you love him but that is not enough to make him better. Even worse he could become dangerous as my brother did. Then gun which my brother tried to fire in my face, it was loaded and the bullet was hit by the hammer. It was a dud. My heart breaks for you as I know the pain you must be feeling. I pray it all works out well but it may be that you have to love him enough to do the hard things to help him. I almost lost my life because I was an enabler who waited too long.
 
Vaflier said:
It is very very hard to watch someone you love harm themselves, but in trying to help you generally only prolong the inevitable. The longer it goes on the worse the ending may be. Telling your loved one that you no longer wish to have anything to do with them until they get sober is the most heart rending thing in the world. It is worse than a death in the family because they are still alive but you cannot help them and your heart breaks more each day and cannott heal. I come from a family of alcoholics and have three brothers who suffer with this. We all have addictive personalities including me. I do not know how I have avoided it other than I never wanted to be like my father. Two ove my brothers are sober now and have been for 3 and 13 years respectively. The other has been to prison twice and lost everything he ever had because of drinking. The doctors gave him all kinds of meds after back surgery and the problems got worse. I have been trying to help him for years and now know that I became part of his problem. Before he went to jail the second time I was at his house one morning and he started acting strange. He went into his tool shed to get something and was babbling nonsense and becoming extreemly agitated. Then we heard the gunshot. I ran into the shed expecting him to be dead since his last words were that he was going to fix everything right now. I found him in the shed with a gun in his hand and it was clear that at that moment he was completely insane. The shot we heard may have been aimed at his wife who was in the yard, we will never know for sure. I tried to calm him down and he was screaming at me that I never cared about him and that no one did . I told him I loved him and that do what ever I could to help, just please give me the gun. He stared me in the eye for a moment and I knew there was no rational thought in his mind, I could see it in his eyes, I will forever see that moment in my mind. And then he screamed like a wounded animal and the hand with the gun came up, Pointing at me. I jumped him and struggled to take the gun from him. He is ten years older than me and is way stronger than I am. The gun ended up pointed directly between my eyes, a 357, and then he pulled the trigger. In slow motion I saw the hammer fall and then I heard the click when it hit. It did not go off !. During all this one of my other brothers came up and heard the struggle and I yelled for help. With his help I was able to wrench the gun from his hands. He then grabbed a pipe and threatened to hit me in the head and when I let him go he ran from the building, got in his car and took off. He grabbed something off a shelf on the way out of the building and I thought it was another gun. I decided he had to be stopped or someone was going to get hurt very badly. I called the police and told them what happened and what he was driving. I also had no choice but to tell them I believed him to be armed and they needed to know that he would likely use the gun. He came home a few hours later to an empty house since I had gotten his wife to go stay with someone else until this was over. I was watching his house expecting that he would return. I called the police and they sent the SWAT team. They tried to talk him out but to no avail. I tried as well but it was not to be. I tried to go in and get him to give up but they restrained me. I finally realized how this was likely going to end. I drew them a floor plan of the house and that there was a large dog a Husky but that the dog was no problem and would probably hide and wimper. After hours of trying their best they stormed the house. Then I heard three gunshots. A part of me died and I knew I would never be the same again.
A few moments later I heard a cop yell what the hell is that !!!. They had just found the Husky which had be shaved almost bald the day before, it really did look pitiful. Then they came out of the house, with my brother walking and in hand cuffs.
The three gunshots I heard were actually flash bang grenades. No one was hurt , thank god. He ended up in jail for the second time for having the guns and being a convicted felon. He spent two years in jail and they got him off all of the medications his so called doctors had given him. He planned on staying with either myself or my sister when he got out and I told the court I would not allow it. I have a wife to protect and my sister would only enable him if he started drinking. He would be a danger to her and my mother. I picked him up when he was released and when he got in the car, I told him that he I would take him were ever he wanted to go but that he could not stay with any of us. He had no place to go. I checked into a motel and told him I would pay for it for thirty days and then he was on his own. He found a house to rent and I helped him to begin to get back on his feet. He has since learned to stand on his own again and is doing well. He looks and acts better tha he has in twenty years. He has asked for nothing for 8 months and is trying hard. I have seen no signs of drinking and have made it plain that if he goes back to drinking I never want to see or hear from him again. I love my brother and it is truly a joy to have the good person I once knew , reappear. It is now just one day at the time but there is reason to hope at least. But I meant what I told him and I will keep my word if I have to.
Please do not wait !!!!. Get him help and if he refuses then you will have done all that you can. As long as he is in your home and drinking, you and your wife are hurting him by becoming his enablers. I know you love him but that is not enough to make him better. Even worse he could become dangerous as my brother did. Then gun which my brother tried to fire in my face, it was loaded and the bullet was hit by the hammer. It was a dud. My heart breaks for you as I know the pain you must be feeling. I pray it all works out well but it may be that you have to love him enough to do the hard things to help him. I almost lost my life because I was an enabler who waited too long.
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Wow Randy, glad things are looking up.
 
OP, if you are still reading this, I have not much to offer you but my thoughts and prayers for your son. I too have a son with a problem. Do your best is all I can offer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Best wishes to you in this process. As you will find from Al-Anon, this group is a support group for yourself, not for your son. They will help you with the steps you need to live your own life with your concern for your son. In other words, they are there to help YOU, not to help your son. In the end, that is best.
 
rwellner98 said:
You should read up on the subject. It's a widely respected and successful form of treatment.
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You should stop giving out inaccurate information. You obviously have no idea what your talking about when it comes to dealing with alcoholism. A.A. Is responsible for getting more people sober than any other program.....ever! It's why, for instance , major U.S. Corporations send problem employees to A.A. Based rehabs, including of course airlines. Many many airline pilots have gone thru these type rehabs and now lead productive lives having returned to their jobs. Their particular A.A. Group is called " Birds of a feather". I've never heard of any company sending employees to be " cured" with drugs. That's simply changing the dependency. Please describe this widely respected treatment. Who runs it? Where?
 
Jimmy cooper said:
You should stop giving out inaccurate information. You obviously have no idea what your talking about when it comes to dealing with alcoholism. A.A. Is responsible for getting more people sober than any other program.....ever! It's why, for instance , major U.S. Corporations send problem employees to A.A. Based rehabs, including of course airlines. Many many airline pilots have gone thru these type rehabs and now lead productive lives having returned to their jobs. Their particular A.A. Group is called " Birds of a feather". I've never heard of any company sending employees to be " cured" with drugs. That's simply changing the dependency. Please describe this widely respected treatment. Who runs it? Where?
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Jim, this is the drug I was speaking of, it does not cure anything, but it makes stopping drinking in the first couple of months easier by stopping the cravings. I know someone who used this medicine, under the supervision of a psychiatrist and it help immensely. This was only a piece of the puzzle and the person I know has stopped the medicine and is 6 months sober.

It is not a cure, requires extensive counseling as a condition of prescribing and in the case of the person I know, was given after careful evaluation.

http://alcoholism.about.com/od/meds/a/campral.htm

This link gives a good explanation of what the drug is, check it out.
 
Unregistered said:
Thanks to everyone who responded, for your help.
We're going to our first Al-Anon meeting next week and he's going to an alcohol assessment meeting next week. We'll see if any recommendations come from that. I'm looking into his obtaining health insurance, but will have to see if that works out because of the cost...we may have to help with that. Not sure if he would even go for treatment at this point - I don't think he's hit his "bottom" yet. We just need to continue to work on ourselves so we can be strong enough to do what may have to be done. We appreciate all your posts. It's been a lot of help.
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If he has no job and no source of income his obamacare health insurance will cost him zero . . please- don't pay for it. you and I already are . .
 
Ten years ago, I went to Hawaii to reclaim my brother after his roommate called my parents.

My brother could not hold his job as a waiter, in flippin' Hawaii, with his roommate as his boss, because he drank too much.

We (his family) told him he needed to go to rehab, and he did, for us. One week in, he had his 'Holy shee-ite' moment and has been sober since. In fact, he and his wife are now discussing which seven figure home they want to purchase to raise their two toddlers in.

This, as I live in my crappy little home, pouring money into airplanes that would probably be better spent / invested elsewhere. Heck , maybe I should go to rehab my ownself!

So in the 'best flights of my life' category, I have to say the commercial one out to Hawaii to bring my brother to rehab is it.
 
Sounds like a bum, poorly raised. Now his folks are paying for their inattention to his upbringing. Has no self worth, no decent values and no motivation to succeed. There's no magic bullet to fix a lousy liberal childhood. Too bad they don't have a draft....
 
flyingriki said:
Sounds like a bum, poorly raised. Now his folks are paying for their inattention to his upbringing. Has no self worth, no decent values and no motivation to succeed. There's no magic bullet to fix a lousy liberal childhood. Too bad they don't have a draft....
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Really?.... wow.
 
flyingriki said:
Sounds like a bum, poorly raised. Now his folks are paying for their inattention to his upbringing. Has no self worth, no decent values and no motivation to succeed. There's no magic bullet to fix a lousy liberal childhood. Too bad they don't have a draft....
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Spoken like someone who is mean spirited and truly does not know sh&t. Your posts say much about you. Kick any dogs lately. ??????.
 
flyingriki said:
Sounds like a bum, poorly raised. Now his folks are paying for their inattention to his upbringing. Has no self worth, no decent values and no motivation to succeed. There's no magic bullet to fix a lousy liberal childhood. Too bad they don't have a draft....
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If I have learned anything, it is that you cannot blame the parents for the addiction of the kids. Kids from all walks of life go astray regardless of their upbringing.
 
flyingriki said:
Sounds like a bum, poorly raised. Now his folks are paying for their inattention to his upbringing. Has no self worth, no decent values and no motivation to succeed. There's no magic bullet to fix a lousy liberal childhood. Too bad they don't have a draft....
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Feel sorry for you .
 
flyingriki said:
Sounds like a bum, poorly raised. Now his folks are paying for their inattention to his upbringing. Has no self worth, no decent values and no motivation to succeed. There's no magic bullet to fix a lousy liberal childhood. Too bad they don't have a draft....
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You mean a lousy liberal childhood like George W. Bush? Who is remembered by many of his Yale classmates as a loud uncouth drunk who also got very poor marks? Who refused to serve in Vietnam and who lied to us about Iraq? That kind of childhood?
 
flyingriki said:
Sounds like a bum, poorly raised. Now his folks are paying for their inattention to his upbringing. Has no self worth, no decent values and no motivation to succeed. There's no magic bullet to fix a lousy liberal childhood. Too bad they don't have a draft....
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:yikes:

Projection?
 
Jimmy cooper said:
You mean a lousy liberal childhood like George W. Bush? Who is remembered by many of his Yale classmates as a loud uncouth drunk who also got very poor marks? Who refused to serve in Vietnam and who lied to us about Iraq? That kind of childhood?
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Naaa, probably more like a pot smoking, never had a real job, community organizer kinda liberal childhood.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
flyingriki said:
Sounds like a bum, poorly raised. Now his folks are paying for their inattention to his upbringing. Has no self worth, no decent values and no motivation to succeed. There's no magic bullet to fix a lousy liberal childhood. Too bad they don't have a draft....
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I don't know if that's the case, but it's a valid point. Genetics certainly plays a role, but it's a minor role. One may be genetically predisposed to have a certain condition, but that is vastly overshadowed by environmental factors. In other words, it comes down to our choices. (Genetics is the liberals favorite way out: "I can't help it. The god I don't beleive in made me this way.")

While my heart goes out to the OP, I have to wonder. Do they drink? Is there booze in the house? If a child grows up around drinkers, is it any surprise that the child will also drink? My parents never drank. There was never alcohol in the house. Same with my wife. As a consequence, we never drank and there is no alcohol in our house. The consequence of that is that none of our children drink and they will never end up like the OP's child.

Mason said:
If I have learned anything, it is that you cannot blame the parents for the addiction of the kids. Kids from all walks of life go astray regardless of their upbringing.
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True enough. A child has to make their own choices. However, there is far too much absentee or hands off parenting. I'm not saying this is the case with the OP as I don't know their situation, but we all know rotten kids who are a product of bad parenting. Parents don't get a pass unless it's beyond their control or ability, after they have done all that can be reasonably expected.


Vaflier said:
Spoken like someone who is mean spirited and truly does not know sh&t. Your posts say much about you. Kick any dogs lately. ??????.
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That's projection.

Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against unpleasant impulses by denying their existence in themselves, while attributing them to others. For example, a person who is rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude.
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What you liberals never seem to get is that while you want to be free to choose, you don't get to choose the consequences of your choice. If you drink, a consequence is that your children may also drink. If you get drunk, a consequence is that you may harm someone. If you want to get drunk and pre-arrange for a cab ride home, a consequence might be that you get home safely without harming anyone.

Anyway, that's how I see it.
 
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garyb said:
While my heart goes out to the OP, I have to wonder. Do they drink? Is there booze in the house? If a child grows up around drinkers, is it any surprise that the child will also drink? My parents never drank. There was never alcohol in the house. Same with my wife. As a consequence, we never drank and there is no alcohol in our house. The consequence of that is that none of our children drink and they will never end up like the OP's child.

Anyway, that's how I see it.
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That is wishful thinking. It may stay true, it may not. There are many influences on a child besides parents. Fraternities do a good job of mentally scarring people into being drunks.:lol:
 
Henning said:
That is wishful thinking. It may stay true, it may not.
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My parents socially drank, 1 out of 4 offspring became an alcoholic. After two failed marriages, having his a$$ thrown in the slammer, losing his driving privileges, and having zero opportunities other than a life of menial labor, he finally realized he didn't want to live life like this.

Went to AA, got clean, went on to college, third marriage stuck, and now is a successful individual. Too bad it took him half a lifetime to get there. But I'm proud of him now, he's become a good guy!
 
Jimmy cooper said:
You mean a lousy liberal childhood like George W. Bush? Who is remembered by many of his Yale classmates as a loud uncouth drunk who also got very poor marks? Who refused to serve in Vietnam and who lied to us about Iraq? That kind of childhood?
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Some people just never get out of the bashing mode and refuse to admit the dude they wanted ain't so hot either. :rolleyes2:
 
garyb said:
I don't know if that's the case, but it's a valid point. Genetics certainly plays a role, but it's a minor role. One may be genetically predisposed to have a certain condition, but that is vastly overshadowed by environmental factors. In other words, it comes down to our choices. (Genetics is the liberals favorite way out: "I can't help it. The god I don't beleive in made me this way.")
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I should really use some strong expletives and pejorative adjectives to describe the intelligence that made a witless comment like what I've quoted. I really should. It burns me hard to see such ignorance.

Some people require moralistic judgements to explain poor outcomes. That person had a personal tragedy because they were bad. That pilot crashed because he did something wrong that I'd never do. Helps them to sleep, or something.

It is extremely difficult for environmental factors to override neurochemistry. It can happen, but it isn't easy. That's why the rate of tobacco recidivism is appallingly low, and why some people have a very difficult time divesting themselves of alcohol or other similarly non-addictive substances.

That's why exposure to such agents can be a nonevent for some and tragedy for others.
 
Totally agree with the above. And keep this thread out if the spin zone. The problem affects liberals, conservatives and everyone in between.
 
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