My GAMI fiasco

azure said:
I've actually seen my oil filters split open sitting on my mechanic's portable table in the hangar. One time he showed it to me and said, see, no metal, it's clean. I'm not 100% certain that he does it every time, but he does do it.

I was the one who mentioned using a boroscope (based on the Aussie AWB). The same AWB also said that cam wear debris is sometimes missed visually.

So maybe it's unlikely that cam wear could be causing performance degradation over the last 250 hours. Maybe the induction effects are new -- though I had done a lean test last year (the first time I considered springing for GAMIs) and noticed the same 0.8-1.0 gph spread with #1 and #2 richer than #3 and #4. The only thing that's new is that the spread seems unfixable by tweaking the nozzle diameter. No way of knowing whether it would have been fixable a year ago.

I have to say, though, that JP mentioned to me in a private email that he knows of one case of cam lobe wear that was discovered in the same way despite visual filter inspections at oil change. He didn't know whether they did trend analysis.
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By the time you get to visual wear found in the filter (i.e. Metal fragments) the damage has already occurred. I use rare earth magnets attached to the filter to catch metal fines and any isolated metal as an even earlier warning tool. Oil analysis also helps by monitoring the non ferrous metals.

All are just diagnostic tools...
 
Marauder said:
By the time you get to visual wear found in the filter (i.e. Metal fragments) the damage has already occurred...
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When it comes to cam or lifter spalling we are talking about a failure due either to defective parts, corrosion or some sort of incident such as lubrication loss or parameter exceedance. So the damage was done even before the time that it shows up in oil analysis. Unless you mean the entire engine is toast?

In this case I think it's probably something less catastrophic that's going on.
 
Silvaire said:
When it comes to cam or lifter spalling we are talking about a failure due either to defective parts, corrosion or some sort of incident such as lubrication loss or parameter exceedance. So the damage was done even before the time that it shows up in oil analysis. Unless you mean the entire engine is toast?

In this case I think it's probably something less catastrophic that's going on.
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My comments were directed to azure to help her understand the things I look at as a long time owner, not to diagnose this specific issue. Hopefully the situation she is dealing with can be understood and corrected.

As for maintenance, I trust my mechanic, but it is usually my butt in the seat when flying, not his. I'm a proactive owner that pays a lot of attention to maintenance, especially engine maintenance. I am actively monitoring the maintenance done and the tools (like oil analysis) as a means to diagnose a possible engine anomaly. I had an unfortunate in-flight engine problem once and it does change the way you look at this ;)
 
Silvaire said:
I agree but in this particular case they are talking about enough wear to cause the valve to not open fully and degrade engine performance.

That's a lot of metal.
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I'm sure. I didn't mean to suggest any diagnosis what so ever. Just sharing my experience around oil analysis.
 
Marauder said:
My comments were directed to azure to help her understand the things I look at as a long time owner, not to diagnose this specific issue.
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I was just trying to add to your input, not disagreeing with it. I don't think this particular problem is as serious as what we are discussing but when faced with these sorts of issues I suppose you have to at least eliminate all possibilities regardless of how remote.
 
azure said:
So I give up on him. Does anyone know a GOOD mechanic in SE Michigan who is actually taking on new customers? Everyone I've talked to is booked many many weeks in advance.
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contact Marty Mayes, Clark Lake Mi.
 
Tom-D said:
contact Marty Mayes, Clark Lake Mi.
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Thanks Tom! I'd forgotten about Marty. Yes he's fairly close and will definitely keep him in mind.

Of course Waterford Aviation at PTK is listed as a GAMI dealer and is even closer. JP isn't personally familiar with them, but I talked to them today and they seem very knowledgeable, and also willing to treat customers with respect. They promised me an email this afternoon and it was waiting for me when I got home -- that's a first and very refreshing after my recent experience with my usual mx guy. Time will tell and of course the proof will be whether they are able to diagnose (and hopefully fix) the problem.
 
re: Your A&P - Are you using the new guy @ 1D2? Regardless; I am worried
by him not providing *data*. I'd really prefer to see the *data* that should
lead to either conclusions, or more refinded hypothesis.

I use Avant Garde @ PTK for my ad-hoc maint. For things I can schedule, I
use Jay Burton @ Marlette/77G. I also trust Jamie @ Michigan Aviation.

No experience with Waterford Aviation.
 
rainsux said:
re: Your A&P - Are you using the new guy @ 1D2?
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Nope. He is a freelancer. (I'm at VLL anyway.) I'll send you a PM...
Regardless; I am worried
by him not providing *data*. I'd really prefer to see the *data* that should
lead to either conclusions, or more refinded hypothesis.
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Me too, plus the fact that he doesn't communicate well, if at all. Just before I started talking to Waterford, he replied to my earlier text saying that he had previously done the bottle test with the injectors in, and would now do it with them out. Since then he has been incommunicado again.

I am going to insist on seeing oil analysis results... IF I can ever get hold of him.
I use Avant Garde @ PTK for my ad-hoc maint. For things I can schedule, I use Jay Burton @ Marlette/77G. I also trust Jamie @ Michigan Aviation.
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The Cardinal I used to fly had an annual done with Jay Burton. Our only complaint was that he set the nosewheel strut so high the front wheel frequently locked up on rollouts. If I'm going to have to start flying it out for annuals, he might be a good choice.

My choice of Waterford for this work is strictly because they're close and a listed GAMI dealer.
 
Liz,

I would try one of a couple things regarding the oil analysis. If you can find out who he sends the oil to call them. If you can't find out call them. I am pretty sure there are only two companies doing this type of work, being AvLab and BlackStone. Call them and ask if they are looking at oil from your airplane (N1234) They will ask a few questions but should provide the info to you since you are the owner. Once you find out who is doing it they will let you know how to get hold of the information.
 
Did we ever get back the results from the A&P on the fuel flow data? I'm interested to know more about how this was checked, and if they did it the right way. Also, if they did the four flows at full, 3/4 1/2 and 1/4 mixture?
 
Tim, will do -- of course, if I can find out who he sends the oil to, then I will be able to ask him for the results too. The hard part is getting him on the phone.

Random, see post #89. The test was done WRONG. Injectors in instead of out. Which makes me think that he doesn't understand how GAMIs work and the assumptions they are working from.
 
Well, ok but wrong is relative. I wanted the test with the injectors in, and if that was done and they got equal flows, go back and figure out the fuel distribution, then go to the air side.
 
docmirror said:
Well, ok but wrong is relative. I wanted the test with the injectors in, and if that was done and they got equal flows, go back and figure out the fuel distribution, then go to the air side.
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Personally I think it's EXTREMELY unlikely that he really got equal flows. In fact he said he was going to call GAMI to find out the tolerance on "equal". JP told me 10% but I don't have a reliable way to get that info to him. So that tells me there were differences but he didn't know if they were significant.

As rainsux said, what we really need is DATA. He doesn't communicate well and he doesn't present DATA. He presents conclusions based on his expert analysis. In this case he is a little out of his element so his analysis is less than expert.

See above about COMMUNICATION.
 
azure said:
Personally I think it's EXTREMELY unlikely that he really got equal flows. In fact he said he was going to call GAMI to find out the tolerance on "equal". JP told me 10% but I don't have a reliable way to get that info to him. So that tells me there were differences but he didn't know if they were significant.

As rainsux said, what we really need is DATA. He doesn't communicate well and he doesn't present DATA. He presents conclusions based on his expert analysis. In this case he is a little out of his element so his analysis is less than expert.

See above about COMMUNICATION.
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THANK YOU.
 
Update: I finally managed to talk to my mechanic this week. He has not been sending my oil samples out. He also doesn't like either Blackstone or AEA, says he knows of cases where both have missed problems they should have detected, that then led to in-flight failures.

He confirmed he's been cutting open my filters consistently and that they have always passed his visual inspection. Of course we know from GAMI that there have been cases of cam lobe wear discovered the same way in which there was no visible evidence in the oil, so I don't put much stock in this.

He agreed to take another look at AEA and start sending my oil out now at each oil change.
 
Also: he redid the bottle test with the injectors out and says he got equal flows, more equal than with them in and definitely within the 10% tolerance.

So I seem to be looking at an air side problem.
 
azure said:
Update: I finally managed to talk to my mechanic this week. He has not been sending my oil samples out. He also doesn't like either Blackstone or AEA, says he knows of cases where both have missed problems they should have detected, that then led to in-flight failures.

He confirmed he's been cutting open my filters consistently and that they have always passed his visual inspection. Of course we know from GAMI that there have been cases of cam lobe wear discovered the same way in which there was no visible evidence in the oil, so I don't put much stock in this.

He agreed to take another look at AEA and start sending my oil out now at each oil change.
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It's not that they MISS problems. All they can do is tell you what's in your oil. Sounds like he doesn't know how to use the tool.
 
jesse said:
It's not that they MISS problems. All they can do is tell you what's in your oil. Sounds like he doesn't know how to use the tool.
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Figure of speech. What he said is that their analysis did not show metal content that he believes had to have been there, given the type of failure only a handful of hours later.

Personally I would tend to suspect that this is a case where some problems can develop very rapidly. But he didn't give me any more detail to go on.
 
jesse said:
It's not that they MISS problems. All they can do is tell you what's in your oil. Sounds like he doesn't know how to use the tool.
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I agree. It is a trend tool. If elevated metals are found, it is showing wear and potential problems. This is opposed to finding a catastrophic failure through metal flakes in the filter and sump screens.
 
Liz, I will go out on a limb here and say that your Mechanic is simply wrong. You cut the oil filter open to look for boulders while the oil analysis is looking for particles the human eye can't even see. They are both important and in my layman's opinion need to be done.

In the HVAC trade we have been using oil analysis on high dollar cooling equipment for 30 years to pinpoint small issues before they show up as large issues.
 
azure said:
Figure of speech. What he said is that their analysis did not show metal content that he believes had to have been there, given the type of failure only a handful of hours later.

Personally I would tend to suspect that this is a case where some problems can develop very rapidly. But he didn't give me any more detail to go on.
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Exactly. If a component failed because of metal fatigue, it most likely won't show up in the oil analysis. If you see an increase in wear metals, it is just a diagnostic tool to investigate potential causes. An example for me was an elevated silicon. I had a small leak in my air filter box that allowed unfiltered, dusty air in.
 
azure said:
Update: I finally managed to talk to my mechanic this week. He has not been sending my oil samples out. He also doesn't like either Blackstone or AEA, says he knows of cases where both have missed problems they should have detected, that then led to in-flight failures.

He confirmed he's been cutting open my filters consistently and that they have always passed his visual inspection. Of course we know from GAMI that there have been cases of cam lobe wear discovered the same way in which there was no visible evidence in the oil, so I don't put much stock in this.

He agreed to take another look at AEA and start sending my oil out now at each oil change.
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Liz,

Your mechanic's first name begin with D? If so, I'm pretty sure I know him.
 
Norman said:
Liz,

Your mechanic's first name begin with D? If so, I'm pretty sure I know him.
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Yes, but so does the OTHER mechanic's first name, that works on the same field. In fact it's the same first name. I'll PM you...
 
tmyers said:
Liz, I will go out on a limb here and say that your Mechanic is simply wrong. You cut the oil filter open to look for boulders while the oil analysis is looking for particles the human eye can't even see. They are both important and in my layman's opinion need to be done.
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Yes Tim, I agree. As I posted earlier, I asked him a LONG time ago to send out samples for analysis, preferably regularly (every oil change) but AT LEAST periodically. I was unhappy to learn that he has been doing neither.

Again, my problem is that there's no one else on field who is available on reasonably short notice (as in, within a week or two). The other mechanic is booked to the end of the year now, or nearly so. The alternative is flying the plane somewhere every time I need work done.
 
azure said:
Yes Tim, I agree. As I posted earlier, I asked him a LONG time ago to send out samples for analysis, preferably regularly (every oil change) but AT LEAST periodically. I was unhappy to learn that he has been doing neither.

Again, my problem is that there's no one else on field who is available on reasonably short notice (as in, within a week or two). The other mechanic is booked to the end of the year now, or nearly so. The alternative is flying the plane somewhere every time I need work done.
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Once you start doing regular business with the alternatives I am guessing the scheduling will be less of a problem. It doesn't sound like you get issues with any sort of speed with your current mechanic either....So, what are you waiting for?
 
I am so fortunate in that my mechanic is only a three minute flight from my home field. They will drive me back to my AP if need to get my truck. I am sure I am a bit spoiled, but then I can do my own oil changes as well which makes things easier.

I agree with where Jesse is going. If you had a Mechanic you could count on you might not need to move the airplane around that much, and just might get it fixed right the first time.

Go talk to another A&P and see what they can offer to help you. Do you have any friends at the home field that would be willing to shuttle you back and forth. Make a burger run out of it for fun. It might even make sense to move to a different airport and drive a bit farther if the Branded Bird gets better care.
 
jesse said:
Once you start doing regular business with the alternatives I am guessing the scheduling will be less of a problem. It doesn't sound like you get issues with any sort of speed with your current mechanic either....So, what are you waiting for?
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We are talking about a couple of weeks with my mechanic vs a couple of months or more with the other guy on the field, or the Cardinal guru in Kenosha.

I'll see how Waterford works out. Their waiting list isn't anywhere near as long as that of anyone else I've talked to. (Of course, that may mean that people aren't beating a path to their door, which is not a good sign either.)
 
tmyers said:
Go talk to another A&P and see what they can offer to help you. Do you have any friends at the home field that would be willing to shuttle you back and forth. Make a burger run out of it for fun. It might even make sense to move to a different airport and drive a bit farther if the Branded Bird gets better care.
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Sure, I'm in a flying club and in fact another member drove me to PTK the other day to pick up my plane after I got stranded there on Sunday shooting approaches. But that's a favor, not something I'd count on. If the A&Ps don't make house calls or help out with transportation, it gets logistically hard.

The folks at Ionia shuttled me back and forth 4 times in all. But I wasn't using them for small jobs either. I had my windshield replaced, and then my wing spar carrythrough, both by them.

Moving to a different airport: KDET would be convenient but my guy is the only mechanic I could use there, and the hangars are in BAD shape. If 57D had an instrument approach I would move there since I know there are good mechanics who work there (not to mention the best sheet metal guy in the area). But they don't have an approach and won't be getting one for at least a couple of years, if then. I used to fly out of KPHN, but that was when Orzel was there. There's no mx shop there at all now that I know of. KPTK is just too far, about a 75 minute drive from work and even worse from home. All the other options are just as bad or worse.
 
I don't know if you're paying for this work, but I'm guessing you are. Since you are the person paying the freight, you need to manage this better, notwithstanding the communications issue. From this thread alone, you should have enough info to tell your A&P how to proceed, and since it's your money, get-er-done.

Ex: 1) Perform the pickle jar test without injectors on all four lines at full, half, and quarter mixture setting. Allow the test to run for long enough to get a deterministic reading of the volumes.

2) If the volumes are within X%, perform test 1 again with the injectors in. Report results of the three runs. If the volumes above were outside of the X% diagnose fuel delivery issue.

3) If the volumes in the three runs of test 2 are within X%, reassemble the fuel delivery system. If they are not within X%, diagnose injector issue.

4) If the volumes in test 2 were within X%, use the super-lean carb cleaner spritz method of testing for vac leaks in the intake system. If no vac leaks are discovered that way, use the pressure method, or the smoke injection method on the intake side to verify intake integrity with no vac leaks.

5) if no defects are found in the fuel delivery, and air delivery systems, perform the valve opening and duration tests using the dial indicator method on all four cylinders. Report results of valve opening and duration results.

6) Verify the correspondence of the cardinal numbers on the EGT gauge going to the correct cardinal numbers on the cylinder case location (1 -> 1, 2 -> 2, 3 -> 3, 4 -> 4) by using a propane heat source, or equivalent. Report results.
 
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> If the A&Ps don't make house calls or help out with transportation,
> it gets logistically hard.

Avant Garde [PTK] advertises that they will assist w/ground transportation.
 
I used to fly our customers back to their home field, or one of the CFIs at the FBO would drop me off and I'd bring their plane to LGB.
 
docmirror said:
I don't know if you're paying for this work, but I'm guessing you are. Since you are the person paying the freight, you need to manage this better, notwithstanding the communications issue. From this thread alone, you should have enough info to tell your A&P how to proceed, and since it's your money, get-er-done.
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Roger all of that, but it won't be my guy doing it. He's out of his league with this and knows it. I've already told him I'm taking the plane to Waterford because they are a GAMI dealer. I will discuss all possible plans of attack that I can think of with them, when I see them.

He'll still be doing my oil changes and incidental mx, at least for now. And he knows I want oil analysis done regularly, and I'll trust (but verify) that he does it. But troubleshooting something like what we're discussing... no.
 
Have you ever thought of changing your own oil? It is not that hard to do, saves you some money, lets you take a good look under the hood and the oil is great for your skin!!!
 
azure said:
We are talking about a couple of weeks with my mechanic vs a couple of months or more with the other guy on the field, or the Cardinal guru in Kenosha.

I'll see how Waterford works out. Their waiting list isn't anywhere near as long as that of anyone else I've talked to. (Of course, that may mean that people aren't beating a path to their door, which is not a good sign either.)
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You'll find the waiting list to be irrelevant once you are a regular customer. They will work you in and keep you flying. When you're someone local that suddenly wants help with what is a giant PITA issue and you're not a customer for everything else expect to wait.

Seriously. Just start funneling all your stuff through a reputable shop no matter their initial waiting list and you will be better off.
 
tmyers said:
Have you ever thought of changing your own oil? It is not that hard to do, saves you some money, lets you take a good look under the hood and the oil is great for your skin!!!
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Not only thought about it, but had my mechanic teach me how to do it. But unless there's a trick even he doesn't know about, on the Cardinal you will cut your hands pretty badly if you try to do it without removing the lower cowl. And getting that thing back on is a bee-aatch. It even takes my guy a good 10-15 minutes just to get the one piece buttoned back on, and he's got a lot more arm muscle endurance than I do.
 
azure said:
Roger all of that, but it won't be my guy doing it. He's out of his league with this and knows it. I've already told him I'm taking the plane to Waterford because they are a GAMI dealer. I will discuss all possible plans of attack that I can think of with them, when I see them.
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K. Good luck over there. Hope it goes well. Wish you were closer to me, we'd have this sorted out over a weekend and a few FMBs.
 
Thats too bad, next time we meet up somewhere show it to me. For that matter maybe Brian will weigh in since he has a Cardinal.
 
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