What is it? When should you get it? What sorts of things does it cover? If I'm flying somewhere like Tahoe or Santa Fe that's located in/around mountains is it recommended or is it more for folks who want to fly through valleys with their wingtips 250 ft. from the walls?
Mountain Training
- Thread starter TexasAdam
- Start date
Alexb2000
En-Route
I live in Taos and do a lot of flying in NM & CO. Even if you have no interest in flying low to the ground a course is still appropriate. The weather and conditions can really be a challenge for any piston aircraft. This remains true year after year when we see a lot of accidents that could have been avoided with some mountain knowledge. Please don't believe the people that come up here once on a perfect day, land at Leadville, and declare it a piece of cake.
If you go to Santa Fe I would recommend Mark Coan @ Sky Machines in Santa Fe. He also does a lot of mountain IFR training as well. If you want to come up north I can make some other recommendations as well.
Anthony
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 18,478
- Display Name
Display name:
Anthony
It is for anyone that is going to be operating in or around mountains AND/OR at high Density Altitudes. While rocks are hard anywhere, high DA's, and especially down drafts do not allow our little planes to perform as well as lower DA's.
There are several books on the subject, but if you are near Denver, CO, the Colorado Pilots Association teaches a good ground school plus flying segment on Mountain Flying. It is well worth the trip.
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
Is there any way to get it without bringing a CFI with me on my vacation? I wonder if we can "fake it" and just fly around my local airport. There are THREE nearby mountains, one almost 5,000 feet high, perhaps we could pretend it was the Sierras. I have flown over it twice and both times I remember lots of turbulence that I didn't experience on the rest of my cross country so I know mountains can change the air flow etc.
Inverted
Cleared for Takeoff
Search for schools that offer a mountain flying course. It is really worth it. We teach one at our school to students who plan on renting our aircraft and flying over mountainous terrain. Sparky Imeson who is a very well known mountain flying expert, has written several well respected books on the matter. Unfortunately he was killed doing mountain flying just a couple years ago.
Alexb2000
En-Route
Reading the Mountain Flying Bible would be a cheap way to learn the concepts.
It hard to fake your first 2,000'+ per minute mountain wave, it's an eye opener.
Alright, consensus is to do it. I've got a trip (commercial) to Phoenix in March. Is there a CFI or school in that area that folks can recommend? How much time should generally be budgeted? I'm a low-time pilot....
Anthony
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 18,478
- Display Name
Display name:
Anthony
That's the problem. They're not "mountains". At 5K feet our planes develop more power than at 12,500 ft which is where you are going to operate around real mountains that are 14K ft high unless you have O2, and a plane that can climb higher. Most flying is done through the mountains, (through passes) not over the highest peaks, although if you can do it going over at 16K or 18K feet is often done. While I've had my Tiger at 14.5K feet, I can legally only stay there for a half hopr without O2. You can get just about anywhere at 12.5 though.
You can't fake DA. Well I guess you could use partial power for take off, but how the plane operates at altitude, and crossing ridges with updrafts and downdrafts really needs to be done somewhere in the big rocks.
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
It is closer than I think in the 180hp 172 so you've just convinced me that maybe it would be a good idea to take the RIGHT CFI along. Though my rental agreement prohibits me paying a CFI in the rental that is not on their staff. They have 4 CFI's but not sure if any of them fly regularly in the mountains.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Mountain flying training should cover many topics and wind patterns and the associated turbulence is one of them. Some other biggies off the top of my head are:
Navigating VFR in the mountains: Without GPS it's easy to get lost when all you can see are tall rocks above you. Make a wrong turn and you might end up with nowhere to go. Even with GPS it's easy to get confused as to where you are relative to the terrain and GPSs do quit now and then.
High DA takeoffs and landings: This is where you learn that 50F is a high temp when your airport altitude is above 5000 MSL and that high DA takeoffs can be "interesting".
Downwind/Uphill and Upwind/Downhill takeoffs and landings. Many airports in the mountains require all takeoffs to be made in the opposite direction and significant runway slopes are common.
Mountain weather. Mountainous weather can be very localized. Often you can go from CAVU to IMC when your turn a corner or cross a ridge.
Cloud formations. Lenticulars and rotors are the product of wind, terrain, and, moisture. Knowing what these clouds mean in terms of turbulence can help you avoid banging your head on the cabin roof or worse.
Crossing ridges. Downdrafts often exist on the lee side of a ridge or saddle making it difficult to determine if you have enough altitude to cross. A standard technique is to approach at a 45° angle to the ridge so you can easily turn away if the ground gets too close.
Fuel planning issues. Running out of gas is a bad thing anywhere but it's worse in the mountains and potentially more likely.
Visualizing wind patterns. Wind in the mountains flows a lot like water in a river with rapids. If you understand how the terrain and wind interact you can often trade a bumpy slow ride for a smother faster one by flying in the right "spot".
Taking advantage of terrain when performance is limited. Climbing in rising air works much better than attempting to climb in a downdraft but some pilots manage to ignore that at their peril. Streams generally flow downhill so if you're in trouble WRT climbing following a stream (in the right direction) can be your ticket out of trouble.
COFlyBoy
Line Up and Wait
***Snicker***
Sorry, we Coloradans highly recommend (real) mountain training.
Its not the height of the mountain that's the issue. It is the utter lack of performance at high density altitude and the weather that mountains create.
There is no way a book will really help you understand what its like when your takeoff roll is 2 or 3 times longer and your climb rate half or a quarter of what it is at sea-level. Or when you're caught in a rotor that far exceeds your planes performance on the best of days.
Even from Phoenix the OP needs to go find a high altitude airport to try out. IIRC 8000 feet keeps you above most of the granite around Phoenix. At 8k you haven't yet entered the pucker area of GA performance.
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,448
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
California has real mountains too.
In fact the highest mountain in the lower 48 is in California.
The club where I learned emphasized the need for mountain training, probably because they lost an airplane in the Sierras only a few months before I started taking lessons. I remember going with my CFI to South Lake Tahoe and some other places I can't remember even before I got my private. That was in a Cessna 150.
The Sierras aren't that far away from the Bay Area. Maybe Kimberly could combine a mountain checkout with some of the other airplane checkouts she is getting.
denverpilot
Tied Down
The Colorado Pilot's Assn's course is named "Mountain Flying AND High Altitude Operations"... the Mountain stuff is only half of it, so to speak.
denverpilot
Tied Down
NICE List!!!
I would add:
- "One-way" Airport Operations with departures and arrivals happening almost simultaneously. (Not something most folks do regularly... look how cranky folks get online when someone posts about someone "landing the wrong way" at an uncontrolled airport.)
- "Blind" Approach Operations, with an approach route that doesn't allow you to even see the runway until you're well into the base leg passing a mountain or ridge line and turning final. (KGWS and to a lesser extent, if you stay to the right during the approach like you're supposed to -- see one-way airport operations above -- KASE.)
John221us
En-Route
California has real mountains too.
In fact the highest mountain in the lower 48 is in California.
The club where I learned emphasized the need for mountain training, probably because they lost an airplane in the Sierras only a few months before I started taking lessons. I remember going with my CFI to South Lake Tahoe and some other places I can't remember even before I got my private. That was in a Cessna 150.
The Sierras aren't that far away from the Bay Area. Maybe Kimberly could combine a mountain checkout with some of the other airplane checkouts she is getting.
Yes, the Sierras are "real" mountains. I think Steve Fossett inadvertently ran into a downdraft (somewhere around Mammoth in the Sierras). RIP. Kimberley is about an hour from there in a 172 (not the best plane to land at South Lake Tahoe, though).
Anthony
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 18,478
- Display Name
Display name:
Anthony
The Colorado Pilot's Assn's course is named "Mountain Flying AND High Altitude Operations"... the Mountain stuff is only half of it, so to speak.
Yeah, I took the course, have the binder, and the certificate from Leadville.
COFlyBoy
Line Up and Wait
California has real mountains too.
In fact the highest mountain in the lower 48 is in California.
The club where I learned emphasized the need for mountain training, probably because they lost an airplane in the Sierras only a few months before I started taking lessons. I remember going with my CFI to South Lake Tahoe and some other places I can't remember even before I got my private. That was in a Cessna 150.
The Sierras aren't that far away from the Bay Area. Maybe Kimberly could combine a mountain checkout with some of the other airplane checkouts she is getting.
Noted. My point wasn't that they don't have real mountains, but that taking off from sea level and climbing over a 5000' MSL ridge is significantly different than taking off from 5000' MSL and climbing over a 10000' MSL ridge. Both are a total gain of 5000' AGL, but they look very different in a normally aspirated GA airplane. A Skyhawk can easily do the former even on a hot day, but not so much the latter. Learning this on your first solo trip through the mountains is not going to be much fun.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Yeah, I took the course, have the binder, and the certificate from Leadville.
Heh, yeah that was aimed at the OP, not you.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
California has real mountains too.
In fact the highest mountain in the lower 48 is in California.
The club where I learned emphasized the need for mountain training, probably because they lost an airplane in the Sierras only a few months before I started taking lessons. I remember going with my CFI to South Lake Tahoe and some other places I can't remember even before I got my private. That was in a Cessna 150.
The Sierras aren't that far away from the Bay Area. Maybe Kimberly could combine a mountain checkout with some of the other airplane checkouts she is getting.
I don't think they'd let me go there in the 150 and I'm already checked out in the 172! My 150 checkout is Saturday and she fills her Saturdays with other students. Nice idea though!
Sac Arrow
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- May 11, 2010
- Messages
- 20,344
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
- Display Name
Display name:
Snorting his way across the USA
Actually, a good way to do it is combine it with a high performance checkout. My CFI determined I would probably end up in the mountains, so the flight time was spent mostly in the mountains, getting in and out of large and small mountain airports.
Same thing when I got my Turbo Arrow. I needed five hours of dual for insurance purposes. It ended up being ten hours of mountain training.
Same thing when I got my Turbo Arrow. I needed five hours of dual for insurance purposes. It ended up being ten hours of mountain training.
Anthony
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 18,478
- Display Name
Display name:
Anthony
I would only do that if I owned or intended to rent a high performance aircraft when mountain flying.
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
I don't intend to rent a high performance aircraft nor is one offered at my home airport and I have FIRMLY decided my love for Petaluma (the airport and people) is at least 50% of the reason I fly. I've been to many others and they pale in comparison. We have aircraft display days where warbirds fly in from all over and the public attends FOR FREE, a pilot club with poker runs and flour bombings and meetings just for us, a neat little airport building, an onsite diner, an awesome airport manager, two flying schools with almost 10 airplanes to rent, night lighting on the runway, untowered, etc. The other places seem "dead" or are highly secured (fenced) while mine remains full of activity and I can walk around on the ramp / hangars all I want.
Sac Arrow
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- May 11, 2010
- Messages
- 20,344
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
- Display Name
Display name:
Snorting his way across the USA
Understood. That was my intention though. I spend a fair amount of time in and over the Sierras.
Thanks for the recommendation, Antony.
CPA course was created because so much aluminum ended up on the ground with flat-landers trying to get to Leadville, Aspen, Glenwood, Gunnison, etc. It is a good course but not a bush class like you can get in McCall, ID for example. Getting through the mtns safely is the main thrust along with density altitude issues. I've had the Jabiru over the rocks a few times now. Have to even more careful than the Mooney.
BTW, they have redone the course to include more pictures and video. I've taken it 3 times and learn something each time.
http://coloradopilots.org
Last edited:
zaitcev
En-Route
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2010
- Messages
- 3,257
- Display Name
Display name:
Pete Zaitcev
I am thinking about taking a 1-day course with[COLOR=00000] Marc Coan in Santa Fe. I met him once because he instructs in GX of NM Sport Aviation that I rented.
http://www.skymachines.com/mountain-flying/courses.html
[/COLOR]
http://www.skymachines.com/mountain-flying/courses.html
[/COLOR]
Alexb2000
En-Route
Great guy and a knowledgable instructor. Let me know how you like it.
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
Oh I forgot to mention (and have no idea how to look it up):
I think there was a POAer who went and found a CFI to do mountain training and then posted about his experiences. I could be wrong, but that is what I remember. Try the "advanced search" perhaps.
1200AGL
Pre-takeoff checklist
That was me. The thread is here. I have a few pictures posted as well (nothing too interesting). That was the coolest flying experience I've had to date.
I highly recommend John Bowman and the crew at Western Air.
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
It was you and it did happen! Thanks!
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
An additional topic - what to do when you unexpectedly land off-airport. The basics of survival when your iPhone doesn't work. The CPA course used to spend more time on this topic than it does now. I think that's because Jer/ is not teaching the ground school, only doing the flights. Not only is he hard-core glider but very experienced SAR person in Civil Air Patrol.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
The Colorado Pilot's Assn's course is named "Mountain Flying AND High Altitude Operations"... the Mountain stuff is only half of it, so to speak.
June 9, 2012
Aug 18, 2012
Link to syllabus from last year:
http://coloradopilots.org/mtnfly_class.asp?menuID=68~68
No, not exactly cheap. The $185/200 (member or not) is only for the ground. Another $250 for the experienced mountain CFI for the practical, which can take 4-6 hours. Counts as a BFR, WINGS credit if you wish, etc. And yes, it includes the obligatory landing at Leadville for your certificate.
Altho some of the LSAs have made it to Leadville, the CPA course strongly recommends 180 hp or better for the flight.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Phoenix in March is very practical - not yet intolerable heat (which is why I live in Colorado when the parents moved to Phoenix). The actual flying would probably include Flagstaff or Prescott and definitely Sedona. You may need to contact a flight school in the north part of the state (Flag or Prescott) if the Phoenix area doesn't have anyone handy.
flightmedic
Pre-takeoff checklist
This is an ignorant not-yet-a-pilot question, but I will ask it anyway. All this talk is about the western mountains ranges. Do you need mountain training if you're flying in or near the Smokey Mountain range where the highest peak is around 6500 ft?
denverpilot
Tied Down
The performance of your aircraft will be a lot better than crossing a ridgeline or pass at 10,000', but many of the same weather phenomena and techniques still apply.
You could also be flying something underpowered for the Smokeys and have similar performance calculations and problems to work out that I might have at KLXV on a hot day (70F is hot) in the Skylane.
There's a lot more water in your air down there too, so the Smokeys create some interesting weather effects that even us "high" mountain pilots would be wise to talk to a local pilot about.
flightmedic
Pre-takeoff checklist
Thanks for the info. I hope to start my PPL training this summer and am a long way from any mountain flying. But when I do start training I will look into this. Thanks again for the info.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
The Appalacians (sp?) have their own unique issues with weather & winds. You'd want to find someone who's familiar with the particular area. There are some aspects that are basically the same but every geographically-distinct area has specific issues. I wouldn't expect someone expert with flying the WY/CO mountains to have the same level of expertise in another area.
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,448
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
I never thought that much about the eastern mountains, hey, I'm from Colorado and all... until I did the circling approach into Pittsfield, MA. Wow, those mountains are close!