Mountain flying training - East Coast

[saracelica]

I have heard alot of good things about Mountain flying training. I tried googling for training on this side of the country (East Coast) and can't find any training. Anyone have any suggestions? I don't want to go out to Colorado just for training. We have those nice Appalachian mountains.

Thanks!

 

[dmccormack]

Welcome to the board!!

The Westies will say we don't have "Mountains" here.

They're sorta right. Most GA singles can climb over any mountain or range here.

The only caveats are to understand the differences in weather, when to expect turbulence, and the risks in flying over at night SEL.

 

[PittsDriver]

Our little hills here on the east coast definitely have some effect on flying around and over them and there's something to think about in terms of how they affect the weather and how smooth the air is but you won't find anything here suitable for what could be categorized as real mountain flying. There are places you can go fly were you have to be on the proper side of the valley to get the lift you need to get out but that won't be east of the Rockies.

I did my mountain flying course with my float rating in Alaska. Pretty serious training taught by people that need those skills to survive. I guess it depends on if you want the training just to check it off or you really want to learn and use some skills where you go for your exposure and training.

 

[NC Pilot]

Where are you located? There are CFI's along the East Coast who can help you, but there is a lot of miles to cover. Knowing where you are will help narrow this list down a tad.

Thanks

 

[nddons]

I did my mountain flying course with my float rating in Alaska. Pretty serious training taught by people that need those skills to survive. I guess it depends on if you want the training just to check it off or you really want to learn and use some skills where you go for your exposure and training.

Do you mind if I ask where you took that training? That sounds awesome.

 

[ChrisS]

People on the East Coast reckon they have mountains over there....but they don't. :wink2:

To get proper mountain training you really need hot n' high, you need to get experience of high DA. Looking at the Interweb the Appalachians average out at about 3,000ft MSL. Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, Oregon, Washington, Utah are probably the best bets to find good realistic training.

 

[dmccormack]

People on the East Coast reckon they have mountains over there....but they don't. :wink2:.

Come on out and we'll go hunting bear together next week. Then tell me we don't have "mountains."

 

[ChrisS]

Come on out and we'll go hunting bear together next week. Then tell me we don't have "mountains."

Thanks for the invite Dan but I get plenty in my own back yard and garage.

 

[dmccormack]

Thanks for the invite Dan but I get plenty in my own back yard and garage.

We have coyotes (Eastern kind)

... and a few transient black bear (http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/23959947/detail.html)

...but Laurel Ridge (about 10 miles east) holds some big Black Bear.

 

[AdamZ]

I have heard alot of good things about Mountain flying training. I tried googling for training on this side of the country (East Coast) and can't find any training. Anyone have any suggestions? I don't want to go out to Colorado just for training. We have those nice Appalachian mountains.

Thanks!

First welcome to the board. Second, Yes the Appalachians can present some interesting challanges, lots of ice, valley fog, horrible haze in summer and even a bit of mountain wave, i have even seen lenticulars over the poconos, all of which a pilot should have some training with, however I think what you are looking for ie a Sparky Emerson type course that deals with High DA, Box Canyons, how to approach a ridge or peak you really have to go out west. Prehaps you might be able get something similar up in NH or VT but i think you need to go out west for the good courses. How are you going to put the lesson to practice without the flying.

 

[gprellwitz]

I did my mountain flying course with my float rating in Alaska. Pretty serious training taught by people that need those skills to survive. I guess it depends on if you want the training just to check it off or you really want to learn and use some skills where you go for your exposure and training.

Do you mind if I ask where you took that training? That sounds awesome.

Not sure where he took it, but when I was looking to do mountain training in Alaska, Above Alaska in Talkeetna came highly recommended. I was even scheduled to do an FR with them, but ended up having to cancel the trip.

 

[PittsDriver]

Do you mind if I ask where you took that training? That sounds awesome.

I went to Scenic Mountain Air in Moose Pass AK but I just went to their web site and I don't see anything there about training now. Give 'em a call though and see if Vern Kingsford is still running the place and if they're doing any instruction.

 

[bobmrg]

People on the East Coast reckon they have mountains over there....but they don't. :wink2:

To get proper mountain training you really need hot n' high, you need to get experience of high DA. Looking at the Interweb the Appalachians average out at about 3,000ft MSL. Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, Oregon, Washington, Utah are probably the best bets to find good realistic training.

Oregon and Washington have mountains, that's for sure, but none requiring mountain flying skills of the sort needed in Utah and Colorado. Quick scan of the Seattle sectional shows no field elevations above about 2500 feet.

Bob Gardner

 

[ChrisS]

Oregon and Washington have mountains, that's for sure, but none requiring mountain flying skills of the sort needed in Utah and Colorado. Quick scan of the Seattle sectional shows no field elevations above about 2500 feet.

Bob Gardner

Your scanning was too brief.

Here's just a few off the top of my head....

Memaloose, OR 6708 ft.
Santium Junction, OR 3780 ft.
Crescent Lake, OR 4810 ft.
Toketee State, OR 3361 ft.
Chiloquin , OR, 4217 ft.
Pinehurst, OR 3638 ft.

Have a look at Stehekin (1200ft elevation but surrounded by 8500ft+ mountains), or Ranger Creek, or Tieton, all in WA. with pretty mountainous terrain to be negotiated when flying into them. It's not just the elevation that is important it is the surrounding terrain, airfield lengths, approach, weather etc as well.

In central and eastern Oregon the land is pretty much all 4,000ft+ so even landing at an airport clear of high hills/mountains you still have high DA, winds and turbulance during the summer and extreme icing in the winter.

 

[gprellwitz]

Surprised that Idaho wasn't in the list of mountainous terrain!

 

[ChrisS]

Surprised that Idaho wasn't in the list of mountainous terrain!

If you read my post carefully you will see it is. :wink2:

 

[gprellwitz]

If you read my post carefully you will see it is. :wink2:

Chris, I wasn't reading your post, I was misreading Bob Gardner's quoting of your post! Somehow I missed Idaho! And, knowing that Bob Bement flies there, I felt slighted on his behalf!

(Bob B., sorry I missed flying with you at Gaston's!)

 

[ChrisS]

Chris, I wasn't reading your post, I was misreading Bob Gardner's quoting of your post! Somehow I missed Idaho! And, knowing that Bob Bement flies there, I felt slighted on his behalf!

(Bob B., sorry I missed flying with you at Gaston's!)

Idaho is pretty much THE place to go for mountain flying, I wouldn't miss that one off. Although I did miss Montana off the list, sorry everyone from Montana.

 

[gprellwitz]

Idaho is pretty much THE place to go for mountain flying, I wouldn't miss that one off. Although I did miss Montana off the list, sorry everyone from Montana.

Yeah, I'd swear I looked for it. Must have been coming right at me, and therefore not changing in position!

 

[Clark1961]

To start off, I'm biased since I'm based in Colorado and fly a turbocharged aircraft. That said, here's my take on "mountain flying"

There are three major components to flights in the mountains. First is weather, second is density altitude, and third is airports and backcountry strips.

Weather is first because it controls whether or not we can even get into the mountains. Is there a difference between east coast and western US weather? Of course there is but this is not a mechanical flying skills issue. Weather is an issue that all pilots deal with so the more we learn the better we are.

Density altitude and aircraft performance real issues out west while they aren't much of a factor back east. It is a huge difference to be operating out of Leadville with almost no climb left if you're a sea level flyer. I'm sure you could duplicate the effect in terms of climb rate by limiting power for flight training but it wouldn't be the same in terms of aircraft handling and groundspeed. Also, navigation becomes a whole 'nuther issue when your stuck with picking canyons and passes out west 'cause you can't climb high enough to see where 'zactly you are. Of course this isn't usually a problem in the Frankenkota but weather can force the issue.

I suspect that mountain airports can be found back east that duplicate some of the problems we have out west. Of course density altitude and available aircraft performance rears its head. I haven't done any of the true backcountry stuff so I'll just leave it at this level. Oneway strips and terrain challenges can probably be taught back east. Marginal aircraft performance for a particular set of conditions probably can't be experienced without going to considerable lengths back east. Around here, all we have to do is go into Glenwood Springs in July or August to have a real test of our abilities.

I hope that adds some perspective on the east-vs-west mountain flying debate. I suspect either east or west mountain flight training will help build skills. Just don't do one type of training and expect it to cover conditions expected in the other area.

 

[Everskyward]

People often forget about California when they talk about mountains. The Sierras are a pretty formidable barrier to some small airplanes and contain the highest mountain in the lower 48, Mount Whitney. The first mountain airplane accident I knew about personally was an airplane out of the flying club where I learned to fly. It happened a few months before I started taking lessons and was the talk of the place for a while. They tried to cross the Sierras at Kearsarge Pass in a C-182 and crashed. Two people were killed and one walked out. She wrote a book about it later and there was a TV movie back in the 80s.

 

[Anthony]

I hope that adds some perspective on the east-vs-west mountain flying debate. I suspect either east or west mountain flight training will help build skills. Just don't do one type of training and expect it to cover conditions expected in the other area.

.

Nice job on the factors of mtn flying. I was based in Denver for three years with my Tiger. Totally different type of flying than ANYTHING in the east. The east does not have mountains, they are not even foothills compared to the Rockies. Don't do training in the east and expect it to translate into western U.S. mountain flying.

A few things I learned flying a normally aspirated 180 HP plane:

Fly light. I never flew near gross weight, and in the warmer months I operated it as a two place plane.

Do not rush things, especially take offs.

Pay attention to winds and weather.

Take a real mountain flying course then fly with experienced mountain pilots.

Its worth the trip to Colorado.

http://coloradopilots.org/mtnfly_class.asp?menuID=45~45

 

[bobmrg]

Your scanning was too brief.

Here's just a few off the top of my head....

Memaloose, OR 6708 ft.
Santium Junction, OR 3780 ft.
Crescent Lake, OR 4810 ft.
Toketee State, OR 3361 ft.
Chiloquin , OR, 4217 ft.
Pinehurst, OR 3638 ft.

Have a look at Stehekin (1200ft elevation but surrounded by 8500ft+ mountains), or Ranger Creek, or Tieton, all in WA. with pretty mountainous terrain to be negotiated when flying into them. It's not just the elevation that is important it is the surrounding terrain, airfield lengths, approach, weather etc as well.

In central and eastern Oregon the land is pretty much all 4,000ft+ so even landing at an airport clear of high hills/mountains you still have high DA, winds and turbulance during the summer and extreme icing in the winter.

None of those airports is on the Seattle sectional and all are unattended...how about the K Falls and Great Falls sectionals? But your point is well taken. I don't know whether I would take flatlanders into remote strips as their initial introduction to mountain flying. I have flown into the Washington State emergency strips but now, since they are so poorly maintained, it would take an honest-to-goodness emergency to get me to go back.

Bob

 

[ejensen]

As we've discussed before, there are really a couple type of mountain flying. There are high altitude operations to/at paved airports. This is what the Colorado Pilots Assocuation teaches. Then there is the dirt/grass strip backcountry flying best known in Idaho and Montana. Utah has quite a few also. Only a couple in Colorado. McCall, ID has a well respected school. http://www.mountaincanyonflying.com/

 

[PittsDriver]

High density altitude effects is something every pilot can be confronted with whether they live near mountains or not. It's a factor but I never really considered it intrinsic or unique to "mountain flying" and you can certainly find yourself trying to take off from higher altitude airports on a hot day that don't have many hills around.

The mountain flying training I got in Alaska was all about flying very close to the terrain in canyons/valleys and using orographic lift to your advantage - which side of the valley to fly and practical judgement skills on when to continue and when to turn around due to terrain, aircraft performance, or weather.

 

[ChrisS]

High density altitude effects is something every pilot can be confronted with whether they live near mountains or not. It's a factor but I never really considered it intrinsic or unique to "mountain flying" and you can certainly find yourself trying to take off from higher altitude airports on a hot day that don't have many hills around.

The mountain flying training I got in Alaska was all about flying very close to the terrain in canyons/valleys and using orographic lift to your advantage - which side of the valley to fly and practical judgement skills on when to continue and when to turn around due to terrain, aircraft performance, or weather.

I don't think that anyone is saying that high DA is unique to mountain flying, but it could be argued it is a more important factor to this type of flying than for more 'normal' airport operations. Flying into short runways in sheltered locations, usually flying at the edge of the flight envelope at slow speeds, a thorough understanding of the effects of and experience of high DA is essential. I really don't believe that a theoretical approach can be taken to high DA training, it has to be experienced first hand.

 

[gismo]

I don't think that anyone is saying that high DA is unique to mountain flying, but it could be argued it is a more important factor to this type of flying than for more 'normal' airport operations. Flying into short runways in sheltered locations, usually flying at the edge of the flight envelope at slow speeds, a thorough understanding of the effects of and experience of high DA is essential. I really don't believe that a theoretical approach can be taken to high DA training, it has to be experienced first hand.

I haven't seen many 8000+ MSL airports in the US outside the mountains though.

 

[ChrisS]

I haven't seen many 8000+ MSL airports in the US outside the mountains though.

There are a few at 7000+ MSL and quite a number at 6000ft+ though. I learnt to fly on the plains in Wyoming and normal DA levels can be well upto and often well over 9,000ft.

EDIT: Just had a look at the sectionals!

 

[Everskyward]

I haven't seen many 8000+ MSL airports in the US outside the mountains though.

I have frequently seen 8000' DA at Centennial in Denver (they have DA indicators at each end of the runway). You wouldn't call the Denver area airports "mountain airports", at least I wouldn't. You can see the mountains but Denver is basically pretty flat.

 

[Anthony]

I have frequently seen 8000' DA at Centennial in Denver (they have DA indicators at each end of the runway). You wouldn't call the Denver area airports "mountain airports", at least I wouldn't. You can see the mountains but Denver is basically pretty flat.

While Denver isn't "in the mountains", as you note, field elevations are typically 5,500 ft and above with summer DA's sometimes approaching 10K ft. The Front Range is considered high plains desert. The real issues come when you fly west of Denver.

 

[PittsDriver]

I left Durango's 6,800' elevation runway on a 100 degree day a few years ago in a single engine piston bird. It made 9000' of runway look shortish on a full gross take off.