Most cost effective (cheapest) way to get an IFR GPS and Glide slope

[Anthony]

OK, I want to get rid of my ADF and move to an IFR GPS to get my IR. The challenge is this, as my panel includes:

1. Terra 760 Nav/Com with G/S (two seperate side by side units). The Com s*cks and I use it only to pick up AWOS/ATIS or monitor Flightwatch or Guard. The Nav works but the goofy, Terra video display head OBS does not.

2. TKM MX11R (Narco replacement) COM only, works fine.

3. Narco self contained VOR head. Works fine.

4. Narco ADF. Works fine, picks up talk radio, etc.

5. Narco Audio panel - works, but the Marker Beacons do not.

My predicament is to replace the ADF with an IFR GPS, I also need a working Glide Slope. What is the most cost effective, yet reliable route?

Option 1:

Garmin 300 XL IFR GPS/Com (no glideslope)
Refurb KX155 w/209 G/S
Refurb KMA 124 audio panel

Approx. cost for parts: $6K

Option 2:

Garmin 430
Refurb KMA 124 audio panel
KI209 VOR head w/ G/S (thanks Len)

Approx. cost for parts: $10K

Option 3:

Retain Nav portion of Terra 760.
Replace Terra VOR head with KI209 w G/S
Refurb KMA 124 audio panel
Garmin 300XL IFR GPS/Com

Approx. cost for parts: $4.3K

Option 3 looks like the least expensive alternative, but will leave a strange, "half radio" space next to the Terra Nav by removing the Com half.

I would love to just throw in the 430, but that is expensive relative to the other options, but if it is the best and safest solution I may bite the bullet.

 

[Len Lanetti]

Anthony,

Ron L has stated several times that marker beacons are not required so I wouldn't spend any money on your audio panel if you were thinking that you needed the marker beacons.

Are there any refurbed Garmin 430s out there?

Don't forget you'll need a new OBS head. You should spring for an HSI! :<)

Len

 

[Anthony]

Anthony,

Ron L has stated several times that marker beacons are not required so I wouldn't spend any money on your audio panel if you were thinking that you needed the marker beacons.

Are there any refurbed Garmin 430s out there?

Don't forget you'll need a new OBS head. You should spring for an HSI! :<)

Len

Thanks Len. Good catch on the new OBS, I edited my post. The Narco audio panel is really a POS, so if I'm getting this much work done, it should go, but its nice to know I could keep it if I have to.

Yeah HSI. And why not TCAS, In-flight weather, 3 axis auto pilot, Radar, Phasers and Photon Torpedoes while I'm at it. Hey, its only money.

BTW, HSI is next on the list, along with the wing leading edge heat tape from Lowes.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I would go with a 430. You will not be disappointed, and in 5 years the extra money you spent on it will be forgotten but the utility will not. I do not think the 430 will drive the KI209, however.

And before you decide on the KMA 24 audio panel, check out the competing models from PS Engineering and Garmin. Check here: http://www.avionix.com/gpscompm.html and http://www.avionix.com/audiopnl.html.

 

[Len Lanetti]

Yeah HSI. Hey, its only money.

Anthony,

One way to look at is...you'll spend about the same for installation costs for an HSI or an OBS...a new OBS is gonna run you about $2,500 but a nice refurbed NSD 360 is only gonna cost $3,989 and you get an extra hole in the panel to put something else in later. What a deal!

Len

 

[tom clark]

I agree with Ken. The enjoyment of that 430 will go on long after the bills paid. One thought; I know it sounds like the stuff you want to get rid of is of little value, but if any of it works at all you may get a little something on ebay or trade-in. It don't cost nothing to ask! tc

 

[poadeleted3]

Cheapest way for new stuff? I'd say a TKM or Michell radio and a KLN 94 GPS. Best way? Don't know.

 

[poadeleted20]

Cheapest way for new stuff? I'd say a TKM or Michell radio and a KLN 94 GPS.

As TKM/Michel does not, to my knowledge, make a slide-in sub for the Terra radios, and Anthony does not seem to have GS on the Narco nav radio (Nav 11 vice Nav 12), that would not get him the glide slope.

All in all, I favor the 430 approach -- lose the ADF and the Terras, keep the Nav 11 and MX-11, and add a full 430 installation with the nav head that comes with it. The audio panel stays if it works for everything except the 3LMB, the absence of which, as noted above, no longer penalizes you on an ILS approach and any other function of which the GPS covers (e.g., OM/LOM FAF for LOC approach -- using, of course, the LOC rather than GPS mode of the 430 to drive CDI steering since GPS is not an authorized sub for LOC guidance).

 

[mikea]

Just to throw some kindling on the blazing fire....

After seeing Phil Boyer's WAAS approach demo I would not spend a dollar that I didn't know would have a WAAS approach upgrade in the pipeline.

I think that means a Garmin GNX480 now vs. the 430.

That's my ill-informed opinion. I could be wrong.

Luckily for me I just verified that my antique stuff works so I'll be safe until this sorts out. I have two TKM MX-170s with King GS and King audio panel.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Just to throw some kindling on the blazing fire....

After seeing Phil Boyer's WAAS approach demo I would not spend a dollar that I didn't know would have a WAAS approach upgrade in the pipeline.

I think that means a Garmin GNX480 now vs. the 430.

Well, certainly the 480 is more capable than the 430. However, if the goal is to get good IFR equipment on a budget, going from what he's got now to a 430 gives excellent bang for the buck (if that can be said about anything involving small planes). Going to a 480 means you have some diminishing returns, paying lots for for incrementally better gear. WAAS notwithstanding, ILS will be with us for a long time.

 

[Eamon]

PS 6000 $950 new
KX170B $500 used
KN75 $200 used
KI209 $950 new
300xl $2700 reman
vor head for gps $500 used
3 small lights & an app switch for homemade ann panel $50

$5850 And I know the kx170 is not digital, but it is bullet proof & would be great as com 2
or screw the 300 & get this for a few more bucks.

/26/105 - Color IFR GPS System, PN 011-00504-00, available with OHC tag and 6 month warranty. Sale price $3300.00. Price includes rack, kit, antenna, and database. Special price only valid while supplies last. Please contact us for more information on this and other avionics specials. Contact Jessica Jervis-Southeast Aerospace, Inc. Located Melbourne, FL USA. Telephone: 321-255-9877 Fax: 321-255-9608 jessica@seaerospace.com

I opted out of a IFR GPS when I did me 182 panel. I added a KNS 80 RNAV w/DME (Saved $2000) that I can use to go direct & I have my hand held GPS with me all the time.

 

[gismo]

If you really want to go the lowest cost route, I think you should consider a KLN-89B and a used KX-155 w/GS. I also think you should forget the KMA-24, if you want to upgrade your audio panel you really ought to go with something more current like the PS-7000, PS-8000, or GMA-340. The difference in cost will be trivial compared to your total installation price, and the labor cost to install any audio panel far exceeds the cost of the unit itself. You might even be able to find a used PS-7000 or GMA-340 if people start pulling them to get the PS-8000's XM-Radio capability.

Another contender should be the KLN-94 IFR GPS. IMO it offers way more than the Garmin 300XL although you would probably want a second comm for backup. For that you could keep the crummy Terra com, or you could go with any of the following:

BK KY-97
BK KY-197
Garmin SL-40

That's assuming you have room for the half width Terra nav along with a full width NavCom and Comm unit plus the GPS. If not you might consider a KX-125 NavCom to replace all the Terra stuff.

BTW you have to be careful what CDI you use with a GPS installation. The KX-155 has no nav converter and is often sold with a KI-208 or KI-209(w/GS) both of which have a nav converter. Unfortunately those indicators will not interface with a GPS receiver so you end up needing a separate indicator dedicated to the GPS (more expense and panel space).

There is an indicator (KI-209A) which adds the ability to bypass the internal nav converter when running from a GPS and this would be a good way to go if you used a radio like the KX-155 along with a KLN-94. Also available are indicators without internal nav converters like the KI-206, KNI-520 from BK and the MidContinent MD-200 which even had a light that indicates the source is GPS. There's also the Mitchel MC-60 which uses LED's instead of pointers but is otherwise similar to the KI-209 for a lot less money. Personally I like pointers better because I can't see "needle movement" as well with the LED's. To use a converterless indicator with a KX-155 requires an external converter like a KN-72 (used $300-700). The KX-125 has a built in nav converter but has no glideslope capability. There is an external GS receiver (KN-75) that's pretty inexpensive, but I'm not sure it's compatible with the KX-125.

One other thing is that you will probably need a remote GPS annunciator/indicator with the 300XL to be legal for IFR approaches. That typically adds another $1200-1500 to the installed cost of an IFR GPS. The GNS-430 and the KLN-94 do not require this as long as the GPS is easily seen by the pilot.

And after all that, I think you'll find that a GNS-430 plus some low cost navcomm would be well worth the installed price. You might even be able to find a used 430 since some folks are pulling them to go with the GNS-480. In any case you should be comparing installed costs for each choice since the cost delta between one approach and another may not be that great a percentage of the total.

 

[wsuffa]

Lance makes the point to check the installed cost. 100% on the mark.

You can get decent IFR GPS equipment in various flavors and prices. The install cost for the GPS alone will be pretty much the same. If you put other stuff in at the same time, the install cost will go up.

I'd probably opt for an overhauled 430, and go from there.

Something to beware of: some of the older GPS units were designed with small datacard capablility. Jepp is removing some of the data points from these GPS units, but I suspect that the time will come where they'll have to eliminate some procedures. Already, they've removed a bunch of terminal waypoints from the Trimble line (and eliminated info on airports with very short runways).

The newer stuff like the Garmin 430 line has room to grow in the database capacity.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Anthony,

Ron L has stated several times that marker beacons are not required so I wouldn't spend any money on your audio panel if you were thinking that you needed the marker beacons.

Len

I would hope Ron L. didn't actually state that (marker beacons are not required) as it isn't true. Absence of MM or IM no longer affects the approach minimums on an ILS. OTOH, as an example of where MB are required, if the GS is OTS and you lack DME you will not be shooting the LOC 8 procedure into LNS without a MB receiver (or IFR GPS substitute, or radar, you get the point--sometimes you still need to identify a marker beacon).

 

[bbchien]

I would hope Ron L. didn't actually state that (marker beacons are not required) as it isn't true. Absence of MM or IM no longer affects the approach minimums on an ILS. OTOH, as an example of where MB are required, if the GS is OTS and you lack DME you will not be shooting the LOC 8 procedure into LNS without a MB receiver (or IFR GPS substitute, or radar, you get the point--sometimes you still need to identify a marker beacon).

What am I missing? on the LOC 8 you identicy POLCU from a cross VOR fix off of RAV, time per the table to get to the MAP as you descend to 900.

...although there are some approaches, though for which I think Ed is correct.

 

[poadeleted20]

...although there are some approaches, though for which I think Ed is correct.

Y'all might review my reply to the person who quoted me, the upshot of which (in the context of this thread) is that I know of no approach where an IFR GPS won't make up for not having a 3LMB.

Now here come the exceptions out of the woodwork...

 

[poadeleted3]

As TKM/Michel does not, to my knowledge, make a slide-in sub for the Terra radios, and Anthony does not seem to have GS on the Narco nav radio (Nav 11 vice Nav 12), that would not get him the glide slope.

All in all, I favor the 430 approach -- lose the ADF and the Terras, keep the Nav 11 and MX-11, and add a full 430 installation with the nav head that comes with it. The audio panel stays if it works for everything except the 3LMB, the absence of which, as noted above, no longer penalizes you on an ILS approach and any other function of which the GPS covers (e.g., OM/LOM FAF for LOC approach -- using, of course, the LOC rather than GPS mode of the 430 to drive CDI steering since GPS is not an authorized sub for LOC guidance).

No, I don't think TKM makes a slide-in replacement for the Terra radios. But, no matter what radio he buys he's going to have to pay to have it installed. I can't think of a good reason not to pay to have a fresh installation done on the TKM radios. Every one I've used so far has worked just fine. At $1500 brand new, they seem like a good deal to me, much cheaper than any other nav-comm I can think of, even the KX125. Of course, the KX 125 has a CDI built in. If he installed a KX 125 nav-comm and KLN-94, would he still be required to install seperate indicators for IFR? If not, seems to me you could save a few pennies, and have one less thing to fail.

Edit: Nevermind... I'm slow tonight. He still wouldn't have a glideslope.

 

[gismo]

No, I don't think TKM makes a slide-in replacement for the Terra radios. But, no matter what radio he buys he's going to have to pay to have it installed. I can't think of a good reason not to pay to have a fresh installation done on the TKM radios. Every one I've used so far has worked just fine. At $1500 brand new, they seem like a good deal to me, much cheaper than any other nav-comm I can think of, even the KX125. Of course, the KX 125 has a CDI built in. If he installed a KX 125 nav-comm and KLN-94, would he still be required to install seperate indicators for IFR? If not, seems to me you could save a few pennies, and have one less thing to fail.

Edit: Nevermind... I'm slow tonight. He still wouldn't have a glideslope.

Then there's the KI-214 which has a built in GS receiver. Unfortunately AFaIK it's not compatible with the KX-125, the very nav/com that would most benefit from it.

 

[Len Lanetti]

I would hope Ron L. didn't actually state that (marker beacons are not required) as it isn't true.

Ed,

Probably a poor choice of words on my part.

Len

 

[BillG]

I need to upgrade the avionics in the Tiger I just bought (if I ever get it back after engine overhaul) and I have tried every combination I can think of to get the price down, but I just keep coming back to the Garmin 430 as the only way to go for IFR approach GPS. I could save a few bucks here and there, but not enough to offset the capability gained with the 430.

 

[Anthony]

I need to upgrade the avionics in the Tiger I just bought (if I ever get it back after engine overhaul) and I have tried every combination I can think of to get the price down, but I just keep coming back to the Garmin 430 as the only way to go for IFR approach GPS. I could save a few bucks here and there, but not enough to offset the capability gained with the 430.

Wow. My brain hurts. Thanks for all the info guys.

Bill. I think we are in the same position with our Tigers. And after my own research and the info provided here by several people, I am coming to the same conclusion. If I can live with the existing audio panel, and just swap the 430 for the Terras and loose the ADF and Loran (yes I still have a Loran which I never use), that's probably the simplest route. Lance, and others have made excellent points on install cost. The time and labor to patchwork a myriad of boxes like the 300XL and another nav/com and make it all work legally for IFR may be more costly than just installing a 430. AND the 430 gives you a lot more capabilities than the lesser IFR GPS's.

 

[Len Lanetti]

. AND the 430 gives you a lot more capabilities than the lesser IFR GPS's.

So, now that we've got you sold on the 430....the 530 has a bigger screen...better able to display down linked weather from the GDL69 that you know you want, traffic from collision avoidance equipment that you know you want and lightening detection that you know you want.

:<)

Len

 

[Anthony]

So, now that we've got you sold on the 430....the 530 has a bigger screen...better able to display down linked weather from the GDL69 that you know you want, traffic from collision avoidance equipment that you know you want and lightening detection that you know you want.

:<)

Len

Ha Len! Now we'll have to split that Lottery you're going to win. If I can convince my wife I "need" the 430, all will be right with the world. If I had all that other stuff, what will the challenge be?

 

[Anthony]

Maybe this will help some folks considering this option (including myself). I just got a quote from JA Air for used Garmin GNS-430. They indicated they bring them up to Garmin spec in-house and have a 120 day warrantee. Price for the unit alone is $6295. This does NOT include the Nav head which they only have new and are $1,475 which seems a lot to me. Are there King alternatives that will work?

So that is $7,770 plus installation and removal of my Terras and Narco ADF. Would $10K be a good estimate for this avionics work including labor for above?

 

[Iceman]

Maybe this will help some folks considering this option (including myself). I just got a quote from JA Air for used Garmin GNS-430. They indicated they bring them up to Garmin spec in-house and have a 120 day warrantee. Price for the unit alone is $6295. This does NOT include the Nav head which they only have new and are $1,475 which seems a lot to me. Are there King alternatives that will work?

So that is $7,770 plus installation and removal of my Terras and Narco ADF. Would $10K be a good estimate for this avionics work including labor for above?

This may be a stupid question but what is the nav head? Is it something inside of the garmin, between the garmin and cdi, or what? Is there a part number for this item?

 

[BillG]

I've gotten quotes around $10K-$13K with new 430's installed, with indicators, etc.

 

[Anthony]

This may be a stupid question but what is the nav head? Is it something inside of the garmin, between the garmin and cdi, or what? Is there a part number for this item?

No stupid questions in aviation. Its the VOR type display with localizer and glideslope needles. The part # is GI106A.

 

[Iceman]

Oh... I always think of that as the cdi or the vor indicator. For a min there I was thinking that the 430 gps/nav/com did not have an internal nav unit.

Having used the 430 for 3 years I would say it is worth the investment. They will be around for a long time. However, I remember reading somewhere that reman 530's were selling for 8500-9000. The screen is a lot more readable in my opinion (TFT vs DS) and a lot larger. But I would say you will be much happier with a 430 as a main unit than the other options.

Good luck!!!