More About Ubuntu

[RJM62]

I've been toying around with Ubuntu for a few months. I had mixed feelings at first because it's, well, different than other Linux distributions I've used over the years. But it's finally won me over. I think this is something I can offer to my small business clients who have better things to spend their money on than overpriced commercial software.

There are some hurdles. For example, there's nothing to really replace Quckbooks Pro, which although I personally detest it as being a buggy, bloated, resource hog put out by a conniving company, is nonetheless popular. There are open-source bookkeeping programs, but nothing that I think I could sell most of my clients on.

Nonetheless, there's nothing to say a small office couldn't have one or two computers running Windows for their "must have" Windows apps that won't run right on WiNE, and then standardize on Ubuntu for tasks that can be done just as well with open-source software.

So yesterday I installed Ubuntu on my laptop (it's already been running flawlessly in the office for months). I chose Gutsy Gibbons, the most recent Ubuntu. I also downloaded a whole bunch of software (totaling more than 600 packages, many of which were libraries and other dependencies rather than actual apps), with only one package hiccupping. It installed on the second try, however, so it may have been a corrupted file.

I also connected the machine to my Windows network, and also configured it to connect to the Internet by Ethernet, WiFi (including WPA encryption), and by using my Verizon EVDO card. I also got quite a bit of Windows software to run under WiNE, but then I decided that that would defeat the purpose of trying to show clients that they could do most of what they need with open-source, so I wound up uninstalling the Windows stuff.

Nothing really earth-shattering, I'll admit. The thing that impresses me is that the one hiccup in one package represents the first time in months of using Ubuntu that something didn't work exactly as it was supposed to on the very first try. This is an incredibly stable OS, which is quite an accomplishment considering how much different it is than the Debian it's built on. Debian, of course, is as solid as a rock, but Ubuntu seeks to make it friendly enough for the average user.

Now if I could just get Macromedia Studio to run properly... I actually do have it running under WiNE on my other machine, but it's not quite right. Some of the rendering is off and there are some other usability issues. But that suite is not something that the average user uses, so I'll back-burner it for now.

Rich

 

[smoore]

I'm also an Ubuntu convert. It does make me feel lazy and slightly dirty though... I'm supposed to have to WORK to make Linux do what I want, right?

upgrading from 7.04 to 7.10 was almost flawless but something seems to have broken with either Java or the bittorrent client Azereus. Az just crashes immediately after opening now.

In any case I just blindly upgraded much like any end user would. I read absolutely none of the questions and clicked "yes" on each. "It just worked."

edit: oh yeah... the wireless configuration utility is not very good at all. "roaming mode" is a joke and I haven't bothered to set up "locations" yet.

 

[tdager]

I like Ubuntu, and think it is a great OS/desktop combo.

However I still have not found what is to love about "open source" other than it being free. *shrug*

Oh and please do not say that it is because one can look at the code. Bind had a "backdoor" in it by the original coders that went unfound for years. Microsoft is not evil, nor is commercial software. Than again I guess it is evil to want to get paid for ones work.

 

[smoore]

FOSS is to be loved because it's "free as in freedom, not as in beer".

Viral licensing is just as bad as proprietary methods, pick your poison.

This argument can never be won, people very rarely change their thinking on the subject. I'm not a software evangelist because of this simple fact. I say use whatever works for you.

 

[RJM62]

I like Ubuntu, and think it is a great OS/desktop combo.

However I still have not found what is to love about "open source" other than it being free. *shrug*

Oh and please do not say that it is because one can look at the code. Bind had a "backdoor" in it by the original coders that went unfound for years. Microsoft is not evil, nor is commercial software. Than again I guess it is evil to want to get paid for ones work.

Microsoft is actually among the better companies in terms of honoring their life-cycle support commitments. I just don't think their software is worth what they charge for it. That's not to say that it's garbage, because it's not. The computer I happen to sitting at is running XP Pro, has been running in an acceptably stable manner for years, and has only been rebooted for updates and maintenance. But then again, I'm a professional and maintain my computers better than an average user can be expected to.

One can look at the ethics of free software and come up with philosophical arguments against it. But then again, I can make just as good an ethical argument against advising a mom and pop business to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on software for which free alternatives are available. But that gets back to "free beer," which isn't the reason I started using Linux about a decade ago. I started using it because, at the time, it was a better OS than any version of Windows was for what I was doing. And in my opinion, it still is, for most of what I do.

My office is down to three Windows computers. One is this machine, which I use mainly because I use Macromedia Studio a great deal, and there's no open-source suite that comes close to what that suite can do. (I pay for it, by the way, and I think it's a bargain.) The second is a Vista Ultimate installation on this same machine, which I boot into when troubleshooting a Vista-specific problem and not very often otherwise. The third is on the same laptop that I installed Ubuntu on, and which I also use Macromedia Studio on when I'm on the road or at a client's location.

All of the other computers in the place, as well as both my Web servers, are now running Linux. Not because it's free (my contributions exceed what I would pay for proprietary OS desktop software, and I pay for my Linux server software), but because it's better in ways that matter to me. I attribute a lot of the superiority of Linux in terms of stability and security to its being open-source. More sets of eyeballs, more discussion, more criticism, and less secrecy make for better products, in my opinion.

Ubuntu is especially exciting, though, because it's also friendly. I went to my brother's house today and brought my laptop along for him to look at Ubuntu. My 6-year-old niece was there, so I asked her if she would mind helping me out by testing it. I told her, quite honestly, that I wanted to see if a child could use Ubuntu, and she was the handiest child available.

Now granted, my niece is a brighter-than-average kid. She's been reading since she was about three or four, so she had no problem navigating the GUI. But I was nonetheless amazed at how quickly she picked it up. I didn't tell her to open certain programs, but rather to do certain tasks, which she was able to do intuitively using applications of her own selection.

It took her about 10 seconds to understand that "pon verizon" connected the computer to the Internet, and "poff" disconnected it. Within five minutes she had discovered Tux Paint, within ten minutes she was playing games on the Web, and within an hour she had my 2-year-old niece and my 3-year-old nephew playing Planet Penguin Racer.

I also asked her to install a program, TuxType, using the Synaptic Package Manager. I showed her how to search for the package in the repository, and I entered my password when prompted. She did the rest.

By the end of the evening, she had progressed through several levels of TuxType (which she also had installed), and had been playing with my laptop, unattended, for several hours. This amazed and worried my brother, who found it hard to believe that short of spilling something in my laptop or dropping it, she really couldn't hurt anything in Ubuntu because she lacked root privileges or the sudo password.

That, to me, is the beauty of Ubuntu. It's easy enough for a child or an ordinary user to use, but rugged and secure enough that they can use it without breaking anything. Windows has long been easy-to-use, and Debian Linux has long been rugged, secure, and stable. Ubuntu delivers the best of both worlds.

Had Microsoft, with all their money and resources, been able to accomplish that same combination as well as Ubuntu does, it's doubtful that Ubuntu would be catching on anywhere except in the poverty-stricken areas of the world. People who can afford to will buy whatever software works best for them. So I won't shed any tears for MS or anyone else who perceives that they have been "hurt" by open-source competition. Instead, I would advise them to put their energies into producing better software, and people in the industrialized world will continue to pay for it.

With major OEMs pre-installing it on new machines, Ubuntu represents the biggest milestone for the open-source movement since OpenOffice.org. There's a demand for it, mainline computer manufacturers acknowledge that, and they are responding. I hope to see it succeed because it really is a beautiful piece of work.

Rich

 

[RJM62]

I'm also an Ubuntu convert. It does make me feel lazy and slightly dirty though... I'm supposed to have to WORK to make Linux do what I want, right?

upgrading from 7.04 to 7.10 was almost flawless but something seems to have broken with either Java or the bittorrent client Azereus. Az just crashes immediately after opening now.

In any case I just blindly upgraded much like any end user would. I read absolutely none of the questions and clicked "yes" on each. "It just worked."

edit: oh yeah... the wireless configuration utility is not very good at all. "roaming mode" is a joke and I haven't bothered to set up "locations" yet.

Yeah, I'm assuming you're talking about nm-app. Not ready for prime time yet; but on the other hand, it doesn't claim to be. It's still developmental. It will get better with time. Heck, I remember when using a WLAN card on Linux meant spending weeks looking for one of the very few that would work without writing your own driver. Nowadays, most of them work out of the box with minimal or no tweaking. Ubuntu's growing popularity should help wireless device manufacturers take more of an interest in supporting Linux, as well.

As for Azareus, I would just try completely removing and reinstalling it first before delving into the code. Unless, of course, you like to troubleshoot for the sheer joy of it...

Rich

 

[RogerT]

I've had Ubuntu loaded up on a pc I made and use it for primarily
irc chat and internet browsing .. although I do have email going on
it if I want to use it.

I also have the LAMP server up on another pc .. but haven't
had much time to work with it other than a test page on Apache.

RT

 

[tdager]

Microsoft is actually among the better companies in terms of honoring their life-cycle support commitments. I just don't think their software is worth what they charge for it. That's not to say that it's garbage, because it's not. The computer I happen to sitting at is running XP Pro, has been running in an acceptably stable manner for years, and has only been rebooted for updates and maintenance. But then again, I'm a professional and maintain my computers better than an average user can be expected to.

One can look at the ethics of free software and come up with philosophical arguments against it. But then again, I can make just as good an ethical argument against advising a mom and pop business to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on software for which free alternatives are available. But that gets back to "free beer," which isn't the reason I started using Linux about a decade ago. I started using it because, at the time, it was a better OS than any version of Windows was for what I was doing. And in my opinion, it still is, for most of what I do.

My office is down to three Windows computers. One is this machine, which I use mainly because I use Macromedia Studio a great deal, and there's no open-source suite that comes close to what that suite can do. (I pay for it, by the way, and I think it's a bargain.) The second is a Vista Ultimate installation on this same machine, which I boot into when troubleshooting a Vista-specific problem and not very often otherwise. The third is on the same laptop that I installed Ubuntu on, and which I also use Macromedia Studio on when I'm on the road or at a client's location.

All of the other computers in the place, as well as both my Web servers, are now running Linux. Not because it's free (my contributions exceed what I would pay for proprietary OS desktop software, and I pay for my Linux server software), but because it's better in ways that matter to me. I attribute a lot of the superiority of Linux in terms of stability and security to its being open-source. More sets of eyeballs, more discussion, more criticism, and less secrecy make for better products, in my opinion.

Ubuntu is especially exciting, though, because it's also friendly. I went to my brother's house today and brought my laptop along for him to look at Ubuntu. My 6-year-old niece was there, so I asked her if she would mind helping me out by testing it. I told her, quite honestly, that I wanted to see if a child could use Ubuntu, and she was the handiest child available.

Now granted, my niece is a brighter-than-average kid. She's been reading since she was about three or four, so she had no problem navigating the GUI. But I was nonetheless amazed at how quickly she picked it up. I didn't tell her to open certain programs, but rather to do certain tasks, which she was able to do intuitively using applications of her own selection.

It took her about 10 seconds to understand that "pon verizon" connected the computer to the Internet, and "poff" disconnected it. Within five minutes she had discovered Tux Paint, within ten minutes she was playing games on the Web, and within an hour she had my 2-year-old niece and my 3-year-old nephew playing Planet Penguin Racer.

I also asked her to install a program, TuxType, using the Synaptic Package Manager. I showed her how to search for the package in the repository, and I entered my password when prompted. She did the rest.

By the end of the evening, she had progressed through several levels of TuxType (which she also had installed), and had been playing with my laptop, unattended, for several hours. This amazed and worried my brother, who found it hard to believe that short of spilling something in my laptop or dropping it, she really couldn't hurt anything in Ubuntu because she lacked root privileges or the sudo password.

That, to me, is the beauty of Ubuntu. It's easy enough for a child or an ordinary user to use, but rugged and secure enough that they can use it without breaking anything. Windows has long been easy-to-use, and Debian Linux has long been rugged, secure, and stable. Ubuntu delivers the best of both worlds.

Had Microsoft, with all their money and resources, been able to accomplish that same combination as well as Ubuntu does, it's doubtful that Ubuntu would be catching on anywhere except in the poverty-stricken areas of the world. People who can afford to will buy whatever software works best for them. So I won't shed any tears for MS or anyone else who perceives that they have been "hurt" by open-source competition. Instead, I would advise them to put their energies into producing better software, and people in the industrialized world will continue to pay for it.

With major OEMs pre-installing it on new machines, Ubuntu represents the biggest milestone for the open-source movement since OpenOffice.org. There's a demand for it, mainline computer manufacturers acknowledge that, and they are responding. I hope to see it succeed because it really is a beautiful piece of work.

Rich

Wow...eloquently spoken! Sorry for my snappy reply, but having been on the receiving end of a typical linux-zealot pontification one to many times, I just go into reactionary mode, which was wrong in this case.

BTW...I agree that MS charges WAY too much for their OS. If they only would realize that dropping something like XP, well Vista, to $79 or so for the home user (one freaking flavor please!) would go a LONG way.

Oh and as for OpenOffice....I have tried it, even loaded it on my wifes PC. Man-oh-man the drubbing I have taken for that, she wants Office 2007 NOW and I am to remove that "garbage" from her PC. Of course I shall listen, after all she IS the Queen of the house!

In the end I am an avid gamer, and until linux can share the game throne with Windows, it is Windows I will be married too.

 

[RJM62]

Wow...eloquently spoken! Sorry for my snappy reply, but having been on the receiving end of a typical linux-zealot pontification one to many times, I just go into reactionary mode, which was wrong in this case.

BTW...I agree that MS charges WAY too much for their OS. If they only would realize that dropping something like XP, well Vista, to $79 or so for the home user (one freaking flavor please!) would go a LONG way.

Oh and as for OpenOffice....I have tried it, even loaded it on my wifes PC. Man-oh-man the drubbing I have taken for that, she wants Office 2007 NOW and I am to remove that "garbage" from her PC. Of course I shall listen, after all she IS the Queen of the house!

In the end I am an avid gamer, and until linux can share the game throne with Windows, it is Windows I will be married too.

Thanks, and understood. I was a bit excited, and it came off as zealotry. I'm not so much a zealot as an enthusiast.

Funny, though... I have both MS-Office and OpenOffice, and I prefer OpenOffice. I think it basically comes down to what a person is accustomed to. If they have an expectation that some option should be in a certain place or done a certain way, then any other way is perceived as "wrong."

Rich

 

[mikea]

...Oh and as for OpenOffice....I have tried it, even loaded it on my wifes PC. Man-oh-man the drubbing I have taken for that, she wants Office 2007 NOW and I am to remove that "garbage" from her PC. Of course I shall listen, after all she IS the Queen of the house!

In the end I am an avid gamer, and until linux can share the game throne with Windows, it is Windows I will be married too.

You should make sure the queen knows that actually PAYING for Microsoft Office means it costs $400-$500 vs. $0 for the garbage, which works OK.

You think the OS is overpriced?

I spend a lot more time fighting the half-fast features on the real McCoy than the "garbage."

 

[RJM62]

Yeah, but don't you miss Clippy?

Rich

 

[alaskaflyer]

The lost productivity in a medium-size office troubleshooting formatting bugs in MS Word alone must run into the thousands of dollars per year.

 

[mikea]

The lost productivity in a medium-size office troubleshooting formatting bugs in MS Word alone must run into the thousands of dollars per year.

Way, way, way, low. There's also all the time it takes to un-embed object files so they can be viewed and emailed.

 

[gprellwitz]

Yeah, but don't you miss Clippy?

Rich

I don't miss him. I'm a good shot!

 

[SCCutler]

The lost productivity in a medium-size office troubleshooting formatting bugs in MS Word alone must run into the thousands of dollars per year.

Not for me. I use WordPerfect, still the best for text.

 

[SkyHog]

Y'all want amazing? Try Ubuntu Studio running KDE.

Best of all operating systems EVER. Problem for me right now is that I cannot use my phone as a modem in Linux anyway I can find, so I'm stuck with Windows until Saturday. boo.

 

[RJM62]

Y'all want amazing? Try Ubuntu Studio running KDE.

Best of all operating systems EVER. Problem for me right now is that I cannot use my phone as a modem in Linux anyway I can find, so I'm stuck with Windows until Saturday. boo.

Why Saturday, out of curiosity? New phone?

What kind of phone are you trying to use, and which provider? Does dmesg bring anything up at all when you connect the phone?

I may (or may not) still have the notes from older phones I used with other versions of Linux. IIRC, most of them just used the generic usb-serial driver and attached to ttyUSBx. From there, it was pretty simple to get them working: Just create the connection in /etc/ppp/peers/ (on Debian, anyway), and pon [provider] / poff

I had a real easy time with my Sierra AC595 card on Verizon, but -- happy day -- the actual Sierra driver module is already compiled into the Gutsy kernel. Some things were quirky, though. For example, my AC595 PCMCIA card shows up as a USB modem and attaches to pppUSB0, pppUSB1, and pppUSB2. That threw me off at first because I was trying to connect using /dev/modem (duh!). But when I looked again at the demesg I realized that it was being recognized as a USB modem; and when I called it at /dev/ttyUSB0, it worked on the first try.

I hope Ubuntu is the Linux that finally persuades hardware manufacturers to get serious about providing Linux drivers. Most of this stuff winds up being so simple that it's not even funny. But getting there can be a real adventure.

Rich

 

[tdager]

LOL...the funny thing is that my hard drive kicked the big one today...took out my whole system (no OS can deal with a bad HD).

So I have loaded up Windows Vista...overall not too shabby, though more testing is in order.

 

[SkyHog]

Why Saturday, out of curiosity? New phone?

What kind of phone are you trying to use, and which provider? Does dmesg bring anything up at all when you connect the phone?

I may (or may not) still have the notes from older phones I used with other versions of Linux. IIRC, most of them just used the generic usb-serial driver and attached to ttyUSBx. From there, it was pretty simple to get them working: Just create the connection in /etc/ppp/peers/ (on Debian, anyway), and pon [provider] / poff

I had a real easy time with my Sierra AC595 card on Verizon, but -- happy day -- the actual Sierra driver module is already compiled into the Gutsy kernel. Some things were quirky, though. For example, my AC595 PCMCIA card shows up as a USB modem and attaches to pppUSB0, pppUSB1, and pppUSB2. That threw me off at first because I was trying to connect using /dev/modem (duh!). But when I looked again at the demesg I realized that it was being recognized as a USB modem; and when I called it at /dev/ttyUSB0, it worked on the first try.

I hope Ubuntu is the Linux that finally persuades hardware manufacturers to get serious about providing Linux drivers. Most of this stuff winds up being so simple that it's not even funny. But getting there can be a real adventure.

Rich

Saturday because that's when I get internet installed at my house. No more phone access for me!

 

[RJM62]

LOL...the funny thing is that my hard drive kicked the big one today...took out my whole system (no OS can deal with a bad HD).

So I have loaded up Windows Vista...overall not too shabby, though more testing is in order.

Well, that sux... I know a good data recovery guy if you need one.

Rich

 

[tdager]

Thanks Rich...but I just shrugged and rebuilt the system on a new, quiet 7200rpm 160GB drive. No biggie...life is too short to get upset about things I cannot control.

 

[smoore]

Yeah, I'm assuming you're talking about nm-app. Not ready for prime time yet; but on the other hand, it doesn't claim to be. It's still developmental. It will get better with time. Heck, I remember when using a WLAN card on Linux meant spending weeks looking for one of the very few that would work without writing your own driver. Nowadays, most of them work out of the box with minimal or no tweaking. Ubuntu's growing popularity should help wireless device manufacturers take more of an interest in supporting Linux, as well.

As for Azareus, I would just try completely removing and reinstalling it first before delving into the code. Unless, of course, you like to troubleshoot for the sheer joy of it...

Rich

My background is MIT/MIS on BSDi/Oracle/Cisco, migrating the (old, crappy, basically unsupported) BSDi to FreeBSD and OpenBSD in two mid-sized dotcom-boom ISP's. I'm out now and wouldn't go back unless a .edu offered me a position. 'Not going to work on Maggie's farm no more.

I loved Linux as soon as there were nVidia drivers for it. I hated nVidia when they yanked the code from the FOSS guys. I've since gotten over that prejudice by using ATI's products. I guess I'll take a trickster over a charlatan?

I remember when using anything but a TULIP or 3com 10/100 ethernet card was a crapshoot with Linux I chose 3com. I bought 5 3c905b's in a lot on ebay in '99 or so and they all still work just fine in and out of many machines, Win32, Linux, *BSD*, hell even a little play time with BeoS. I hope I have the same luck as I (finally) migrate to gigabit ethernet. Whoops, tangent.

Yes, it's mighty refreshing that most wifi cards work just fine OOTB. ndis-wrapper takes care of 90% of the ones that don't work.

I guess I've just seen the other side of the mountain re: wifi roaming apps and don't understand why some geek hasn't stepped up to the plate. He/she should reference toshiba's proprietary win32 based software for an interface to copy. If it just had directional indication it'd be the perfect mini-netstumbler.

re: azereus: yeah, I nuked both java and azereus and reinstalled them a.k.a. "luser procedure" that evening. It works fine now. I'm taking this whole Ubuntu thing at face value (plus console experience) and just plowing through the whole "user experience". I honestly think it'll be dumbed down enough for the genpop with the next release. Right now it should make any RH/Fedora zealot seriously consider s/RPM/DEB/g.

re: "delving into the code": I'm a PowerLuser man! That code stuff just makes my head hurt! I grok networks and services, not the voodoo that makes programs work The console is for running mount, nmap and lspci! I was proud when I loaded my first perl module, I couldn't program my way out of a paper bag.

 

[RJM62]

Other than in terms of their "must-have" Windows apps, I personally think that most Windows users could make the transition to Ubuntu Gutsy with little pain just as it is. I haven't come across anyone who has had a particularly hard time with it. (KDE on Kubuntu would probably be a little easier for them than Gnome, but I have always found K to be a bit buggy for my liking.)

I had to laugh when you mentioned TULIP drivers. I needed a NIC once in a hurry, and I ran over to some local stationery shop and bought an off-brand NIC that prominently featured Tux on the box and stated that drivers were available for Linux.

Before I installed the card, I read the instructions, which pointed me toward some government Web site to download the driver (I think it was NASA). So I used another computer to get the driver. The government site had all kinds of scary warnings against unauthorized access, told me that my IP had been logged, and so forth.

After about three or four pages of warnings, I finally got to the driver -- and it was a TULIP driver. By that time, TULIP drivers had long been compiled into the kernel, so there was nothing for me to do. The NIC was recognized automatically as soon as I started up the machine.

I still wonder who at the company thought it necessary to send buyers to a scary government site to download an unnecessary driver for a cheap NIC. Either he knew nothing about Linux, or he was a practical joker.

Rich

 

[mikea]

My background is MIT/MIS on BSDi/Oracle/Cisco, migrating the (old, crappy, basically unsupported) BSDi to FreeBSD and OpenBSD in two mid-sized dotcom-boom ISP's. I'm out now and wouldn't go back unless a .edu offered me a position. 'Not going to work on Maggie's farm no more.
...

Folks It's late in the year but I think we have the POA post of the year!

(The worst part is I understand all of that.)

I ran BSDi when it was new and had great support, as in, I called for help getting the NIC driver to work and Rob Kolstad hisself called me back and not only fixed my problem, he gave me the phone number of the guiy who wrote the drivers. I'm old, son.