MOA's

D

double d

Guest
Hello all,

I'm actually a canadian, but live right on the border, so I'd like to do some flying in the US after I get my license. Here's the deal, Alot of the airspace is a MOA (northern Washington) and I know it's fairly active, as I've been at my grandparents and watched fighters zoom by, but wonder what the procedures are to fly in these areas. Any help is greatly appriciated.

Cheers all.
 
The first place to look is in the Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM), paragraph 3-4-5.

3-4-5. Military Operations Areas ​
a. MOAs consist of airspace of defined vertical and lateral limits established for the purpose of separating certain military training activities from IFR traffic. Whenever a MOA is being used, nonparticipating IFR traffic may be cleared through a MOA if IFR separation can be provided by ATC. Otherwise, ATC will reroute or restrict nonparticipating IFR traffic.
b. Examples of activities conducted in MOAs include, but are not limited to: air combat tactics, air intercepts, aerobatics, formation training, and low-altitude tactics. Military pilots flying in an active MOA are exempted from the provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.303(c) and (d) which prohibits aerobatic flight within Class D and Class E surface areas, and within Federal airways. Additionally, the Department of Defense has been issued an authorization to operate aircraft at indicated airspeeds in excess of 250 knots below 10,000 feet MSL within active MOAs.
c. Pilots operating under VFR should exercise extreme caution while flying within a MOA when military activity is being conducted. The activity status (active/inactive) of MOAs may change frequently. Therefore, pilots should contact any FSS within 100 miles of the area to obtain accurate real-time information concerning the MOA hours of operation. Prior to entering an active MOA, pilots should contact the controlling agency for traffic advisories.
d. MOAs are depicted on sectional, VFR Terminal Area, and Enroute Low Altitude charts.
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It is perfectly legal for VFR aircraft to fly through MOAs (ATC can't route IFR traffic through a MOA unless they can ensure separation). They are established and charted to let pilots know the airspace presents an increased risk due to high-speed miitary aircraft which may be maneuvering (aerobatics, dog fights, etc.).

Some pilots avoid them like the plague; others fly through them without a second thought.
 
double d said:
Hello all,

I'm actually a canadian, but live right on the border, so I'd like to do some flying in the US after I get my license. Here's the deal, Alot of the airspace is a MOA (northern Washington) and I know it's fairly active, as I've been at my grandparents and watched fighters zoom by, but wonder what the procedures are to fly in these areas. Any help is greatly appriciated.

Cheers all.
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Welcome to Pilots of (North) America (and the rest of the world)!

We recently had a thread about this very subject, but I'm afraid I'm unable to find it right now.

As Kent says, it is legal to fly through them without talking to anyone. No permission is required. However, it can be a Very Bad Idea because of the relative speeds of the aircraft; not only laterally, but vertically. This is one of those cases where legal is not synonymous with safe. If practicable, call the controlling agency before entering to find out if it is hot (actively in use). If it is, I would recommend going around it or asking them for suggested vectors through it. It is possible that they can provide a route through a portion that isn't being used.

An even better alternative would be to make use of the full services of ATC and request flight following for the flight. Unlike Canada, there are no user fees for that service (at least not yet!). Since you don't yet have your license, you aren't instrument rated. When you are, however, just file an instrument flight plan and they will route you around any hot area.
 
Just remember - when a MOA is hot, the military pilots consider it their airspace.

Since they have weapons on their aircraft and I don't, I believe they are correct. :yesnod:

marc
 
double d said:
Hello all,

I'm actually a canadian, but live right on the border, so I'd like to do some flying in the US after I get my license. Here's the deal, Alot of the airspace is a MOA (northern Washington) and I know it's fairly active, as I've been at my grandparents and watched fighters zoom by, but wonder what the procedures are to fly in these areas. Any help is greatly appriciated.

Cheers all.
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The other posts have covered this quite well, but I have some anecdotal PIREP for you that is fairly current.

I flew through MOA/RA wonderland two weeks ago. Started out at Clearwater Airpark in Florida, a strip that sits just outside of the northern intersection of the TPA Class B and the PIE Class D. I flew up the coast with flight following and as I neared the Live Oak MOA, ATC cautioned me that it was active. After stopping for fuel and pee at Panama City, I was routed in and around all the MOA's and RA's that quilt the panhandle. So, if you are going anywhere near these sorts of areas, when you get your WX-brief, ask specifically about any warnings and then use flight following. Neither of these, of course, relieves you of the final responsibility to not get skewered by a USAF jet jockey, but the more situational awareness you can equip yourself with, the better.

Frankly, I was concerned about the panhandle flight and on the way out I took the cautious path well north of the fly zones and down a VOR corridor. On the way back, I went ahead and took the advice from this list and did the coast and it was one of the best flights I have ever made.

Stay alert, have fun and don't hesitate to ask for info from ATC.
 
Exocetid said:
The other posts have covered this quite well, but I have some anecdotal PIREP for you that is fairly current.

I flew through MOA/RA wonderland two weeks ago. Started out at Clearwater Airpark in Florida, a strip that sits just outside of the northern intersection of the TPA Class B and the PIE Class D. I flew up the coast with flight following and as I neared the Live Oak MOA, ATC cautioned me that it was active. After stopping for fuel and pee at Panama City, I was routed in and around all the MOA's and RA's that quilt the panhandle. So, if you are going anywhere near these sorts of areas, when you get your WX-brief, ask specifically about any warnings and then use flight following. Neither of these, of course, relieves you of the final responsibility to not get skewered by a USAF jet jockey, but the more situational awareness you can equip yourself with, the better.

Frankly, I was concerned about the panhandle flight and on the way out I took the cautious path well north of the fly zones and down a VOR corridor. On the way back, I went ahead and took the advice from this list and did the coast and it was one of the best flights I have ever made.

Stay alert, have fun and don't hesitate to ask for info from ATC.
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The panhandle of Florida is probably going to be my prime destination when I get my PPL. When I look at the airspace on my Garmin 696, I think to myself, how am I ever going to get there. Thanks for the advice.
 
Mxfarm said:
Just remember - when a MOA is hot, the military pilots consider it their airspace.

Since they have weapons on their aircraft and I don't, I believe they are correct.
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They probably don't, unless there's a Restricted Area in close proximity to the MOA.
 
Just talk to ATC... They know when the MOA is active or not and can route if it is active... Many MOA's have a floor and us bug smashers can putz along underneath more or less safely...
The irony is you have a 30 million dollar war fighter training to survive in a combat zone but cannot see and avoid a 130 knot spam can that is flying straight and level! doh...

denny-o
 
I fly through them regularly without concern. I'm also virtually always on flight following or an IFR flight plan. Never hurts to have an extra set of eyes out there.
 
Also check the sectional for the altitudes of the MOA. All the ones where I normally fly at have floors that are well above where I normally fly at.
 
I live and fly in Arizona. Trying to get anywhere without flying through a MOA is either impossible or will significantly increase your travel time. I fly through them without a second thought.

The military has enough Restricted airspace out here for them to play in. They've also screwed up the entire west side of Phoenix with a new SATR around Luke Air Force base. I really don't give a crap if they don't like me being there, it's legal for me to be there. Besides, I'm more likely to have issues with NORAD / non-communicating aircraft around my home airport. Not to mention that there are VERY active military flyways criss-crossing the entire area. Like the rules state: I'm lower and slower and I have the right of way.
 
slowjoe said:
I live and fly in Arizona. Trying to get anywhere without flying through a MOA is either impossible or will significantly increase your travel time. I fly through them without a second thought.

The military has enough Restricted airspace out here for them to play in. They've also screwed up the entire west side of Phoenix with a new SATR around Luke Air Force base. I really don't give a crap if they don't like me being there, it's legal for me to be there. Besides, I'm more likely to have issues with NORAD / non-communicating aircraft around my home airport. Not to mention that there are VERY active military flyways criss-crossing the entire area. Like the rules state: I'm lower and slower and I have the right of way.
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What "issues" do you have with NORDOs? ( I assume you meant that, and not NORAD)
 
gprellwitz said:
An even better alternative would be to make use of the full services of ATC and request flight following for the flight. Unlike Canada, there are no user fees for that service (at least not yet!).
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Small airplanes in Canada pay an annual fee to Nav Canada but no additional fees for ATC service unless they land at one of the larger airports and then it's only $10.

CHARGES FOR PROPELLER AIRCRAFT (INCLUDING HELICOPTERS) THREE METRIC TONNES OR LESS FOR TERMINAL AND ENROUTE SERVICES

ANNUAL CHARGES FOR CANADIAN-REGISTERED AIRCRAFT
Weight – MTOW
(metric tonnes)
Base Rates
Effective March 1, 2009
0.617 to 2.0
$ 68
over 2.0 to 3.0
$ 227

QUARTERLY CHARGES* FOR FOREIGN-REGISTERED AIRCRAFT
Weight – MTOW
(metric tonnes)
Base Rates
Effective March 1, 2009
0.617 to 2.0
$ 17.00
over 2.0 to 3.0
$ 56.75
* Quarters are as follows: March 1 to May 31, June 1 to August 31, September 1 to November 30, December 1 to February 28 (or 29).

DAILY CHARGES AT SPECIFIED INTERNATIONAL AIRPORTS* FOR PROPELLER AIRCRAFT WEIGHING THREE METRIC TONNES OR LESS
Daily Charge
Maximum Charge
$ 10 per day
$1,200 per year per aircraft
* Applicable at Vancouver including the water aerodrome, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto (L.B. Pearson), Ottawa (Macdonald-Cartier), and Montréal (Trudeau) international airports. This Daily Charge also applies to propeller aircraft (including helicopters) over 3.0 metric tonnes that have been declared to NAV CANADA as dedicated to recreational use.
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http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefi...dmin/guidetocharges/Customer_Guide_New_en.pdf
 
dmccormack said:
What "issues" do you have with NORDOs? ( I assume you meant that, and not NORAD)
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"NORAD" was a term used for NO RADio a very long time ago. It was dropped from usage when the North American Air Defense Command came into existence in the 50's and called NORAD.
 
slowjoe said:
Like the rules state: I'm lower and slower and I have the right of way.
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Having the right of way doesn't help you much if you get speared by an F-15 going 450 knots straight down. The Eagle driver ejects and gets to tell his/her side of the story; you don't get to do either. My practice is to check with ATC to see if the MOA is hot, and if so, at what altitudes. I'll transit a hot MOA only with flight following so the controller can tell me if the fast-movers are headed my way. Note, of course, that the fact that a MOA is scheduled for use (which is all you can find out in advance) doesn't mean it will be in use during those times, so checking with ATC is a good way to find out if a MOA which was scheduled to be hot is actually cold when you get there, allowing safe transit.
 
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dmccormack said:
What "issues" do you have with NORDOs? ( I assume you meant that, and not NORAD)
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No Radio, yes. Around here NORDO and NORAD are used about equally. I've been hanging around the old farts to much and picked up some of their bad habits.

Anyway, I don't have any issues with no radio operators. As long as they fly what would be expected. And more often than not, they don't. I've seen my fair share of NORDO, and with radio but apparantly turned off radios, blow right through the active jump zone, land on 23 when calm because it's closer and easier, even through the designated calm wind runway is 5, cut in front of planes on short final and taking the runway when aircraft are on final. That one has happened to me personally, I was about 1/4 mile from the threshold, all my lights on, and this other plane took the runway right in front of me.
 
dmccormack said:
Ahh, the good ole days....

Anyway, the point of my question is that he said he has the right of way because he's low and slow -- but than has problems with NORDOs.

Hmmm..... :skeptical:
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Probably because NORDOs are going to be even slower than him, and that means *he* has to give way. The nerve! :rofl:
 
Ron Levy said:
Having the right of way doesn't help you much if you get speared by an F-15 going 450 knots straight down. The Eagle driver ejects and gets to tell his/her side of the story; you don't get to do either. My practice is to check with ATC to see if the MOA is hot, and if so, at what altitudes. I'll transit a hot MOA only with flight following so the controller can tell me if the fast-movers are headed my way. Note, of course, that the fact that a MOA is scheduled for use (which is all you can find out in advance) doesn't mean it will be in use during those times, so checking with ATC is a good way to find out if a MOA which was scheduled to be hot is actually cold when you get there, allowing safe transit.
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Their operational floors are MUCH higher than my ceilings. WHO CARES?! Contrary to what you think, they know I'm there and they're REQUIRED to suspend or move their operation until I'm out of the way.
 
I'd just say - know thy MOA's.

marc
 

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slowjoe said:
Their operational floors are MUCH higher than my ceilings. WHO CARES?! Contrary to what you think, they know I'm there and they're REQUIRED to suspend or move their operation until I'm out of the way.
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Mxfarm said:
I'd just say - know thy MOA's.

marc
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No, Joe regularly flies below the 100' - 500' operational floors of the CANNON, PRUITT, and TRUMAN C MOAs! :)
 
slowjoe said:
No Radio, yes. Around here NORDO and NORAD are used about equally. I've been hanging around the old farts to much and picked up some of their bad habits.

Anyway, I don't have any issues with no radio operators. As long as they fly what would be expected. And more often than not, they don't. I've seen my fair share of NORDO, and with radio but apparantly turned off radios, blow right through the active jump zone, land on 23 when calm because it's closer and easier, even through the designated calm wind runway is 5, cut in front of planes on short final and taking the runway when aircraft are on final. That one has happened to me personally, I was about 1/4 mile from the threshold, all my lights on, and this other plane took the runway right in front of me.
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And radio-equipped pilots aren't guilty of shenanigans? :skeptical:
 
gprellwitz said:
No, Joe regularly flies below the 100' - 500' operational floors of the CANNON, PRUITT, and TRUMAN C MOAs! :)
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Just because the floor of the MOA is say 1,000AGL DOES NOT mean that they operate at that level. To the contrary, they operate much higher. As per a briefing directly from Luke, they typically operate 5,000-10,000 AGL. Why? BECAUSE WE'RE THERE is one of 2 main reasons. The other is MARGIN OF SAFETY.
 
slowjoe said:
Just because the floor of the MOA is say 1,000AGL DOES NOT mean that they operate at that level. To the contrary, they operate much higher. As per a briefing directly from Luke, they typically operate 5,000-10,000 AGL. Why? BECAUSE WE'RE THERE is one of 2 main reasons. The other is MARGIN OF SAFETY.
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Joe,

First, 100' is a lot lower than 1000'.

Second, each MOA is different, and can actually be used for different purposes at different times. Maybe for the type of flying they're practicing at Luke they don't have an operational need to go lower. While one AFB may be flying at 5000' or even 18,000', that does not mean that it is universally true. They (or someone else) may be practicing low-altitude nap of the earth flying on the day you decide to go through there. The only ways to be SAFE are to either stay out altogether or to talk to ATC.
 
EdFred said:
Probably because NORDOs are going to be even slower than him, and that means *he* has to give way. The nerve! :rofl:
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No, it has nothing to do with being lower or slower. Someone taking the runway when you're on short final is BAD PILOTING. Cutting someone off on final because you're not paying attention is BAD PILOTING. Crossing through a published drop zone during operational hours is BAD PILOTING.

What, you think because you're flying without a radio you can do what you want, when you want, where you want and the hell with everyone else?
 
slowjoe said:
No, it has nothing to do with being lower or slower. Someone taking the runway when you're on short final is BAD PILOTING. Cutting someone off on final because you're not paying attention is BAD PILOTING. Crossing through a published drop zone during operational hours is BAD PILOTING.

What, you think because you're flying without a radio you can do what you want, when you want, where you want and the hell with everyone else?
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It was a joke - hence the :rofl:
 
Trapper John said:
Even if the military thinks they know where you are in an MOA, bad things can happen.

A section of a Beech Baron window frame was found embedded in the
leading edge of the F-4C's wing, 38 inches outboard from the wing joint.​

Trapper John​
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Keep in mind that what those boys (and they are 20 somethings, frightening in itself) are flying are aircraft that cost in the millions, possibly billion range with the finest materials and equipment that your tax money can buy.

Humvee meets VW Beetle
 
slowjoe said:
No, it has nothing to do with being lower or slower. Someone taking the runway when you're on short final is BAD PILOTING. Cutting someone off on final because you're not paying attention is BAD PILOTING. Crossing through a published drop zone during operational hours is BAD PILOTING.

What, you think because you're flying without a radio you can do what you want, when you want, where you want and the hell with everyone else?
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...and this poor behavior is the exclusive domain of airplanes with no radios...?
 
gprellwitz said:
Joe,

First, 100' is a lot lower than 1000'.

Second, each MOA is different, and can actually be used for different purposes at different times. Maybe for the type of flying they're practicing at Luke they don't have an operational need to go lower. While one AFB may be flying at 5000' or even 18,000', that does not mean that it is universally true. They (or someone else) may be practicing low-altitude nap of the earth flying on the day you decide to go through there. The only ways to be SAFE are to either stay out altogether or to talk to ATC.
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Again, who cares? They KNOW you're there. They are REQUIRED to avoid you.

Apparently you haven't flown much out here in the mountains. Contacting center in many places requires you to climb much higher than you otherwise would. Some of the fields I go to would require an additional 4-5000 ft to contact center. I'm not going to waste my time when I have the right to be there. Just like they have the right to come tearing across the sky on VR267 at 400kts if they want, and they do quite often, in Class G airspace.
 
dmccormack said:
...and this poor behavior is the exclusive domain of airplanes with no radios...?
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You appear to have missed my statement about NORDO AND people with radios who just have them turned off or otherwise not listening.

I live directly under base to 23. Last week I watched a plane taking off on 5 climb out. Some bozo in a V-35 came tearing across the sky, NW-SE, and cross over top of the climbing out aircraft at what looked like less than 100ft. The pilot climbing out had to evade else there would have been a collision. The transient pilot was at the wrong altitude, crossing in the wrong location, and obviously one or the other or both weren't on the radios.
 
dmccormack said:
Anyway, the point of my question is that he said he has the right of way because he's low and slow -- but than has problems with NORDOs.
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Doesn't make much difference if the jets in the MOA are on freq or not, or whether he has a radio or not. Right of way doesn't help much if the other guy/gal doesn't see you in time, and "in time" has a whole new meaning when you're going 450 KIAS compared to 150 KIAS.
 
slowjoe said:
You appear to have missed my statement about NORDO AND people with radios who just have them turned off or otherwise not listening.

I live directly under base to 23. Last week I watched a plane taking off on 5 climb out. Some bozo in a V-35 came tearing across the sky, NW-SE, and cross over top of the climbing out aircraft at what looked like less than 100ft. The pilot climbing out had to evade else there would have been a collision. The transient pilot was at the wrong altitude, crossing in the wrong location, and obviously one or the other or both weren't on the radios.
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I'm guessing the V-35 had a radio.

:smilewinkgrin:
 
Ron Levy said:
Doesn't make much difference if the jets in the MOA are on freq or not, or whether he has a radio or not. Right of way doesn't help much if the other guy/gal doesn't see you in time, and "in time" has a whole new meaning when you're going 450 KIAS compared to 150 KIAS.
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Hello, McFly!!!

I'm agreeing completely that ignoring military traffic is dumb.

I was responding to slowjoe's apparent anti-milair force field.
 
slowjoe said:
Their operational floors are MUCH higher than my ceilings.
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Not necessarily. There are MOA's with combat and acrobatic maneuvering and floors down pretty low.
Contrary to what you think, they know I'm there and they're REQUIRED to suspend or move their operation until I'm out of the way.
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Your assumption isn't true -- if you go wandering in there, they may have no idea you're there, even if you're talking to ATC (as they may be off the ATC freq). While service directives may require them to suspend operations for known intruders, that's a safety rule not based on right of way. In fact, the fact that you are slower than them has no bearing on right of way, and there is no mention in 91.113 about being lower other than when establishing right of way on approach to an airport for the purpose of landing. Further, if someone finds out you deliberately entered a hot MOA with the expectation of forcing those in the MOA to cease their operations, I think you are likely to find yourself in an unhappy situation.
 
Ron Levy said:
While service directives may require them to suspend operations for known intruders,
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Sigh.

Further, if someone finds out you deliberately entered a hot MOA with the expectation of forcing those in the MOA to cease their operations, I think you are likely to find yourself in an unhappy situation.
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What do you mean expectation? Intention maybe, though I am hard pressed to think what would make the situation unhappy for the GA pilot. I suspect you are also. Charges brought under the UCMJ? :rofl: FAA sanctions for following the regulations?

I have the expectation that they will do whatever they need to do as I exercize my privelege.
 
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