Minimums...Not for Sissies

Terry

Line Up and Wait
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Display name:
Terry
Hi All:

I have tried for 3 nights to fly the VOR/DME RWY34 at Hays, Kansas.

I take off on RWY 34, straight out to 3800', right turn to VOR, track to VOR, fly outbound on R152, cross Nette(OM from ILS Chart, 374HZ), travel 1 minute past, left turn to 107*, level wings and time 1 minute, then turn right and come back in on R287, intercept 332*, fly over OM, descend to 2380, and then go missed because I can't find the runway.

I have Dry bulb at 41* and wet bulb to 41*, wind at 16 from 300*. The WB & DB give me that foggy, misty look.

Would any of you IR pilots fly this approach with these conditions?

I'll keep working at it until I get it but in real life, I would go someplace else or just stay at home.

Terry :hairraise:

Sorry, I am on FS2004. Minor detail
 
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Terry said:
Hi All:

I have tried for 3 nights to fly the VOR/DME RWY34 at Hays, Kansas.

I take off on RWY 34, straight out to 3800', right turn to VOR, track to VOR, fly outbound on R152, cross Nette(OM from ILS Chart, 374HZ), travel 1 minute past, left turn to 107*, level wings and time 1 minute, then turn right and come back in on R287, intercept 332*, fly over OM, descend to 2380, and then go missed because I can't find the runway.

I have Dry bulb at 41* and wet bulb to 41*, wind at 16 from 300*. The WB & DB give me that foggy, misty look.

Would any of you IR pilots fly this approach with these conditions?

I'll keep working at it until I get it but in real life, I would go someplace else or just stay at home.

Terry :hairraise:

Sorry, I am on FS2004. Minor detail

Sure, I'd try it, but a safe missed approach is "getting it right" under those conditions.
 
Terry said:
Hi All:

I have tried for 3 nights to fly the VOR/DME RWY34 at Hays, Kansas.

I take off on RWY 34, straight out to 3800', right turn to VOR, track to VOR, fly outbound on R152, cross Nette(OM from ILS Chart, 374HZ), travel 1 minute past, left turn to 107*, level wings and time 1 minute, then turn right and come back in on R287, intercept 332*, fly over OM, descend to 2380, and then go missed because I can't find the runway.

I have Dry bulb at 41* and wet bulb to 41*, wind at 16 from 300*. The WB & DB give me that foggy, misty look.

Would any of you IR pilots fly this approach with these conditions?

I'll keep working at it until I get it but in real life, I would go someplace else or just stay at home.

Terry :hairraise:

Sorry, I am on FS2004. Minor detail

Would I fly it? Sure, would I expect to go missed? I'd give it a descent 50% chance. When I lived in the CA Bay Area, I shot lots of approaches, especially the displaced localizer into Hayward where I often staged my plane out of and had to go to plan B which was either the Cat II (yes, I did my check and 12 in my Travel Air) into Oakland or just head out to Concord where it was clear and sunny and just BART in. It's no big deal to fly the approach even if you know your going missed, it's great practice. Now if you ask if I'd haul pax in on it... depends on their schedule. If they don't have the time to mess around, I'll go direct to where I know I'll get in. Often I'll explain the situation and give them the choice. If there is no convienient alternate, you just set for maximum endurance and hold for a bit, It's rare that you don't get a few minutes window long enough to get in within an hour or two. When I was working/living on Catalina weekends and LGB during the week, in the winter I'd have two potentials: Bases around 1700-1900 (runway 1640). I'd take the boat route to Avalon at 1000' turn right up the shoreline climb to 1650' stand out a bit past the point on extended base and then turn in and slow down and just let the threshold come up (pretty good grade at the end of that runway) and meet the plane. One could also expect the runway cloud. Might only be 100' deep to the runway, but it taught you the meaning of 0-0. When that happened, people would just stack up in a holding pattern over the 24 end of the runway in beautiful clear skys with hill tops sticking out, and LGB across the way. When the wind would pick up a bit, the geography was such that the 24 would appear in a hole in the cloud, just the 24, and it would only last a few minutes, but that was all it took to get everyone in. The longest I ever had to hold was 3 hours, and that was a nasty day. It combined both, with tops around 5000 and basses around 200' Good thing LGB is 20 minutes away and Palm Springs and Big Bear are not even 45 with a dozen other options including a CAT II ILS @ LAX in between. 15 hrs of endurance at holding speeds (125, Vyse+15).

You can try what ever you please as long as you have the requisite skills and ratings. Just have a way out. If there is a CAT II approach in your area I would suggest you qualify on it and keep it in practice. That's a good thing about having a multi. You can get time building CFI's to buy the fuel and fly half the approaches. Since they get to log the entire time, it's a pretty good deal for them and I get qualified safety pilots. Back then, my fuel cost was less than $30 hr.
 
Henning said:
If there is a CAT II approach in your area I would suggest you qualify on it and keep it in practice. /QUOTE]

Great write-up. pardon my laziness, but what does one have to do to qualify for at CAT II approach in a GA aircraft ?
 
jdwatson said:
Henning said:
If there is a CAT II approach in your area I would suggest you qualify on it and keep it in practice. /QUOTE]

Great write-up. pardon my laziness, but what does one have to do to qualify for at CAT II approach in a GA aircraft ?

Since I don't think it has changed in 15 years, if you are in a catagory A aircraft, the aircraft doesn't need any equipment other than that required to fly a CAT I approach. You then have to fly six approaches and take a check flight, I did mine with the Feds and I'm not sure if a DE can do them or not. You are then qualified to shoot them to 150' in actual. After shooting another 6 that then drops to the 100'. After departing Hayward once in very low weather and heavy, full fuel and boat gear to head north with, I lost an oil line and feathered out the port, and found myself not being able to climb out over the hill gradient. Shot the ILS into Oakland down to about 50' rather than circling to climb on one. Kinda a crappy set of choices I left myself there. I learned from that one.
 
Ron Levy said:
What is the reported visbility?
Are you sure the runway lights are on?

Ron:

Yes, runway lights are on . Overcast and 1/2 mile visibility. No precip.

There is an ILS for this runway but I am working on my VOR approaches and I am finding it difficult if I am not exactly on the money.

Probably that way in real life too! :D

Terry
 
Terry said:
Overcast and 1/2 mile visibility.
With half a mile vis, I generally expect not to get in on a nonprecision approach, so your three tries would be listed in the "training" column in my book. If it were with intent to land, I doubt I'd've tried even the second pass, no less the third.
 
jdwatson said:
Great write-up. pardon my laziness, but what does one have to do to qualify for at CAT II approach in a GA aircraft ?
See 61.67 (http://www.aopa.org/members/files/fars/far-61.html#14:2.0.1.1.2.2.1.5):
Summary:
IA, 50 hr night PIC, 75 hr instrument time, 250 hr x-country PIC, instrument currency, practical exam. See below for details.

(a) General. A person who applies for a Category II pilot authorization must hold:
(1) At least a private or commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating or an airline transport pilot certificate;
(2) A type rating for the aircraft for which the authorization is sought if that aircraft requires a type rating; and
(3) A category and class rating for the aircraft for which the authorization is sought.
(b) Experience requirements. An applicant for a Category II pilot authorization must have at least—
(1) 50 hours of night flight time as pilot in command.
(2) 75 hours of instrument time under actual or simulated instrument conditions that may include not more than—
(i) A combination of 25 hours of simulated instrument flight time in a flight simulator or flight training device; or
(ii) 40 hours of simulated instrument flight time if accomplished in an approved course conducted by an appropriately rated training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(3) 250 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command.
(c) Practical test requirements.
(1) A practical test must be passed by a person who applies for—
(i) Issuance or renewal of a Category II pilot authorization; and
(ii) The addition of another type aircraft to the applicant's Category II pilot authorization.
(2) To be eligible for the practical test for an authorization under this section, an applicant must—
(i) Meet the requirements of paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section; and
(ii) If the applicant has not passed a practical test for this authorization during the 12 calendar months preceding the month of the test, then that person must—
(A) Meet the requirements of §61.57(c); and
(B) Have performed at least six ILS approaches during the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the test, of which at least three of the approaches must have been conducted without the use of an approach coupler.
(3) The approaches specified in paragraph (c)(2)(ii)(B) of this section—
(i) Must be conducted under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions;
(ii) Must be conducted to the decision height for the ILS approach in the type aircraft in which the practical test is to be conducted;
(iii) Need not be conducted to the decision height authorized for Category II operations;
(iv) Must be conducted to the decision height authorized for Category II operations only if conducted in a flight simulator or flight training device; and
(v) Must be accomplished in an aircraft of the same category and class, and type, as applicable, as the aircraft in which the practical test is to be conducted or in a flight simulator that—
(A) Represents an aircraft of the same category and class, and type, as applicable, as the aircraft in which the authorization is sought; and
(B) Is used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(4) The flight time acquired in meeting the requirements of paragraph (c)(2)(ii)(B) of this section may be used to meet the requirements of paragraph (c)(2)(ii)(A) of this section.
(d) Practical test procedures. The practical test consists of an oral increment and a flight increment.
(1) Oral increment. In the oral increment of the practical test an applicant must demonstrate knowledge of the following:
(i) Required landing distance;
(ii) Recognition of the decision height;
(iii) Missed approach procedures and techniques using computed or fixed attitude guidance displays;
(iv) Use and limitations of RVR;
(v) Use of visual clues, their availability or limitations, and altitude at which they are normally discernible at reduced RVR readings;
(vi) Procedures and techniques related to transition from nonvisual to visual flight during a final approach under reduced RVR;
(vii) Effects of vertical and horizontal windshear;
(viii) Characteristics and limitations of the ILS and runway lighting system;
(ix) Characteristics and limitations of the flight director system, auto approach coupler (including split axis type if equipped), auto throttle system (if equipped), and other required Category II equipment;
(x) Assigned duties of the second in command during Category II approaches, unless the aircraft for which authorization is sought does not require a second in command; and
(xi) Instrument and equipment failure warning systems.
(2) Flight increment. The following requirements apply to the flight increment of the practical test:
(i) The flight increment must be conducted in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type, as applicable, as the aircraft in which the authorization is sought or in a flight simulator that—
(A) Represents an aircraft of the same category and class, and type, as applicable, as the aircraft in which the authorization is sought; and
(B) Is used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(ii) The flight increment must consist of at least two ILS approaches to 100 feet AGL including at least one landing and one missed approach.
(iii) All approaches performed during the flight increment must be made with the use of an approved flight control guidance system, except if an approved auto approach coupler is installed, at least one approach must be hand flown using flight director commands.
(iv) If a multiengine airplane with the performance capability to execute a missed approach with one engine inoperative is used for the practical test, the flight increment must include the performance of one missed approach with an engine, which shall be the most critical engine, if applicable, set at idle or zero thrust before reaching the middle marker.
(v) If a multiengine flight simulator or multiengine flight training device is used for the practical test, the applicant must execute a missed approach with the most critical engine, if applicable, failed.
(vi) For an authorization for an aircraft that requires a type rating, the practical test must be performed in coordination with a second in command who holds a type rating in the aircraft in which the authorization is sought.
(vii) Oral questioning may be conducted at any time during a practical test.
[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61–103, 62 FR 40900, July 30, 1997]
 
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