Military speed limit under 10k

dans2992

dans2992

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Dans2992
So, I just saw out my office window 2 F16s departing Phoenix Sky Harbor.

Quickly switching over to one of the flight tracking websites, They both appeared as ADS-B traffic targets and at 3900 MSL, one was going 413kts, and the other 316 kts.

Does the speed limit not apply to these guys? Do they regularly request permission to go fast from ATC, or do they "just do it" because nobody is going to complain?
 
dans2992 said:
So, I just saw out my office window 2 F16s departing Phoenix Sky Harbor.

Quickly switching over to one of the flight tracking websites, They both appeared as ADS-B traffic targets and at 3900 MSL, one was going 413kts, and the other 316 kts.

Does the speed limit not apply to these guys? Do they regularly request permission to go fast from ATC, or do they "just do it" because nobody is going to complain?
Click to expand...

Was this in an MOA?
 
F-16s and the like have speed limit waivers because it would be unsafe for them to operate slow.

Of course what is safe for them is unsafe for the rest of us so stay out of their way.
 
dans2992 said:
So, I just saw out my office window 2 F16s departing Phoenix Sky Harbor.

Quickly switching over to one of the flight tracking websites, They both appeared as ADS-B traffic targets and at 3900 MSL, one was going 413kts, and the other 316 kts.

Does the speed limit not apply to these guys? Do they regularly request permission to go fast from ATC, or do they "just do it" because nobody is going to complain?
Click to expand...

Drpends. Most places that have fighters have speed waivers below 10K. Ours had 350 kts for F-18s but we pretty much applied that rule to all fighters. Then again, pretty much anything less than 500 kts we looked the other way.

You also have the rule that if the pilot needs a higher speed for operational necessity, a higher speed can be approved.
 
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Fighters don't need no stinkin' speed limit! :yes:
 
Yep. 250kts below 10k restriction does not apply to mil folks who are on the letter of agreement (LOA/MOU) with the FAA for safety of flight or tactical requirement. Which essentially means that yes, we can go straight up ludicrous speed (Spaceballs reference) in order to effect said rejoins. I've been 4.2 bills below 1k agl in the -38 as #4 on a 4 by 10 second interval in Class Charlie airspace. That's about 120 knot Vc for the tail end charlie guy. Full blower incinerating JP-8 like I stole it and loving every reverberating second of that ridiculous ride up the moon.

...'Murica.

It's not just the fighter/trainer types. When I flew the Buff that sucker climbs at 325kcas on the rejoin on an MRT climb and/or for nuke alert. For a half a million pound airplane, that's actually pretty ridiculous. :D
 
I remember being at an air show at Michigan's Willow Run Airport years ago. We were in a Cessna 182 in position and holding for a Navy F-14 Tomcat that was just cleared to take off from a runway that crossed ours. We were in a good place to see the F-14 take off. He was cleared to 10,000 after take of and he took the whole 10,000 in a vertical climb. He held the jet about 50 feet above the runway until reaching the end and then he went vertical. What a site that was.
 
Velocity173 said:
Drpends. Most places that have fighters have speed waivers below 10K. Ours had 350 kts for F-18s but we pretty much applied that rule to all fighters. Then again, pretty much anything less than 500 kts we looked the other way.



You also have the rule that if the pilot needs a higher speed for operational necessity, a higher speed can be approved.
Click to expand...


Did you even care if it was more than 500 kts!? Seems that unless someone's complaining about a sonic boom, that should be fine.... ;)
 
dans2992 said:
So, I just saw out my office window 2 F16s departing Phoenix Sky Harbor.

Quickly switching over to one of the flight tracking websites, They both appeared as ADS-B traffic targets and at 3900 MSL, one was going 413kts, and the other 316 kts.

Does the speed limit not apply to these guys? Do they regularly request permission to go fast from ATC, or do they "just do it" because nobody is going to complain?
Click to expand...

91.117 Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).


(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.


(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).


(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.
 
dans2992 said:
Did you even care if it was more than 500 kts!? Seems that unless someone's complaining about a sonic boom, that should be fine.... ;)
Click to expand...

When I did ATC, no, not at all. Speed generally works in the controller's favor. Until you have to split them up for individuals or the receiving controller won't take the handoff, then speed is your worst enemy.

There's a fine line between needing the extra speed as a operational necessity or "minimum safe airspeed" and wanting to go fast to show off. Example, I was hanging in the tower one day and a Georgia ANG F-15 (Peach) was coming in for the overhead. The pilot asked the local controller if his speed was ok for the break. I looked up at the radar and he was doing 600 kts at 2,500 ft. I looked out on the horizon about 5 miles out and he was book'in! The local controller was a student and simply replied in the affirmative. His monitor happened to be a hot head and said something to the student like "are you kidding me? Six hundred f'ing knots!" He then asked "Peach one five, do you need six hundred knots for some kind of operational requirement or something?" The pilot replied in the negative. I looked up at radar just before his break he slowed it down to a sluggish 450 kts. :D

Really at military bases it depends on the command climate as to what the pilots can get away with. While most controllers don't care about speed and the odds of them getting in trouble slim, COs that deal with the outside civilian community do care about speeding. At my old base, we had such a problem that we were ordered to set up a speeding log. Basically sat down some student in front of a scope and had him log speeds at the initial and the break for each flight coming in. Our "speed trap" lasted about 3 months and then went back to normal ops.
 
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Some years ago when I was training at St Louis Lambert, I used to see F-15s depart vertically out the top of the TCA. They would takeoff, accelerate and then pull up into a 70-80 degree climb, pull again to horizontal and then half roll upright and depart the area.
 
roncachamp said:
91.117 Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).


(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.


(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).


(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.
Click to expand...

IIRC, the back of 7110.65 has a table for aircraft speeds, primarily the military speeds that were "approved by the administrators". Has that changed since I was in ATC?
 
dans2992 said:
So, I just saw out my office window 2 F16s departing Phoenix Sky Harbor.

Quickly switching over to one of the flight tracking websites, They both appeared as ADS-B traffic targets and at 3900 MSL, one was going 413kts, and the other 316 kts.

Does the speed limit not apply to these guys? Do they regularly request permission to go fast from ATC, or do they "just do it" because nobody is going to complain?
Click to expand...

"Speeds approved by the administrator."

B-1 on takeoff accelerates to 360KIAS for the climb transitioning to .82M at altitude. Coming back home we were down to about 300knts by 10K MSL.
At 250knts, dependent on weight, we would need flaps. Radar downwind is normally about 240knts and flaps.

Put us low level in an MTR or MOA and its 540KGS.
 
dans2992 said:
So, I just saw out my office window 2 F16s departing Phoenix Sky Harbor.

Quickly switching over to one of the flight tracking websites, They both appeared as ADS-B traffic targets and at 3900 MSL, one was going 413kts, and the other 316 kts.

Does the speed limit not apply to these guys? Do they regularly request permission to go fast from ATC, or do they "just do it" because nobody is going to complain?
Click to expand...

Whats your cross streets where you work? You should have called me to look out my Window. :dunno:
 
The SR-71 routinely went above Mach 1 on climb to refuel to heat the skin enough that it wouldn't leak.
 
I was driving home today on 820 west by the NAS base in ft worth and saw the blue halo of a jet moving at what was the fastest I've ever seen, he was probably under class B but heading north east and climbing so he was definitely going to be right in the bravo.

Damn he was fast.
 
champ driver said:
Some years ago when I was training at St Louis Lambert, I used to see F-15s depart vertically out the top of the TCA. They would takeoff, accelerate and then pull up into a 70-80 degree climb, pull again to horizontal and then half roll upright and depart the area.
Click to expand...

Guessing that is some form of a delivery/acceptance flight profile. Not an F-15 guy, but I know for the F-16, a post maintenance check involves a relatively similar climb out.
 
35 AoA said:
Guessing that is some form of a delivery/acceptance flight profile. Not an F-15 guy, but I know for the F-16, a post maintenance check involves a relatively similar climb out.
Click to expand...
Used to be called the Viking or Viking one departure but I don't see a procedure for it anymore.

Nauga,
and his low transition
 
35 AoA said:
Guessing that is some form of a delivery/acceptance flight profile. Not an F-15 guy, but I know for the F-16, a post maintenance check involves a relatively similar climb out.
Click to expand...

I remember Hornets used to do them for a post maint check as well. Usually had it in the remarks on the strip. Ground would call down with a 2 minute warning "Blade11 requesting unrestricted to two three oh." You call center for approval, local calls for release, let 'er rip.
 
champ driver said:
Some years ago when I was training at St Louis Lambert, I used to see F-15s depart vertically out the top of the TCA. They would takeoff, accelerate and then pull up into a 70-80 degree climb, pull again to horizontal and then half roll upright and depart the area.
Click to expand...
Yeah, a 'few' years back I trained students out of STL. One day an F-18 did the 'Viking deparure' noted above. After the requisite amount of time we were cleared for takeoff in our C-150. I responded "cleared for takeoff, but somehow it's just not the same" The controller keyed his mike and I think the whole tower was laughing!
 
35 AoA said:
Guessing that is some form of a delivery/acceptance flight profile. Not an F-15 guy, but I know for the F-16, a post maintenance check involves a relatively similar climb out.
Click to expand...
I worked at McDonnell Douglas back in the 80's and 90's. Local lore was that the Viking departure was for 'noise abatement', and that it was the test pilots who spearheaded the effort to get it approved 'so we can be good neighbors' :rolleyes:
 
35 AoA said:
Guessing that is some form of a delivery/acceptance flight profile. Not an F-15 guy, but I know for the F-16, a post maintenance check involves a relatively similar climb out.
Click to expand...

Air Force did those for maintenance too, usually when an engine was changed out. At Eglin the F-15 would get airborne, immediately suck the gear up, fly the entire 12,000' runway maybe 50-100' above it, and then at the end pull straight up vertically to 20,000-23,000 feet, level off inverted (for Gs), and roll over upright. Impressive.

Working in the tower at Eglin was almost like an air show everyday with about 130 fighters on base back then, as we had a Test Wing w/ all the different fighters in the USAF, a Fighter Wing w/ F15s, Rescue Wing w/ C130s and H60s, and an Operational Test Wing w/ various fighters, plus airlines and an Aero Club w/ 21 planes. A lot of fun but very busy.
 
mscard88 said:
Air Force did those for maintenance too, usually when an engine was changed out. At Eglin the F-15 would get airborne, immediately suck the gear up, fly the entire 12,000' runway maybe 50-100' above it, and then at the end pull straight up vertically to 20,000-23,000 feet, level off inverted (for Gs), and roll over upright. Impressive.

Working in the tower at Eglin was almost like an air show everyday with about 130 fighters on base back then, as we had a Test Wing w/ all the different fighters in the USAF, a Fighter Wing w/ F15s, Rescue Wing w/ C130s and H60s, and an Operational Test Wing w/ various fighters, plus airlines and an Aero Club w/ 21 planes. A lot of fun but very busy.
Click to expand...

Eglin sure has changed since then...
 
Seanaldinho said:
Eglin sure has changed since then...
Click to expand...

During the Vietnamese War, Eglin was like the Wild West. There was a "gunfight" almost everyday between the Navy F-4 drivers at Pensacola and the F-4 drivers from Eglin. We could get away with almost anything as long as we didn't break anything or anybody.
 
Velocity173 said:
I remember Hornets used to do them for a post maint check as well. Usually had it in the remarks on the strip. Ground would call down with a 2 minute warning "Blade11 requesting unrestricted to two three oh." You call center for approval, local calls for release, let 'er rip.
Click to expand...

Reminds me of how much I always enjoyed FCF launches from the boat. Unless you are launching 5-wet tankers or someone with a lot more ordnance than is usually carried in today's conflicts, a combat rated thrust (CRT, i.e. full burner) cat shot is normally uncommon. And it sounds a hell of a lot different if you are down in the ready room underneath the cat, or really anywhere else……always got me a little excited.
 
champ driver said:
Some years ago when I was training at St Louis Lambert, I used to see F-15s depart vertically out the top of the TCA. They would takeoff, accelerate and then pull up into a 70-80 degree climb, pull again to horizontal and then half roll upright and depart the area.
Click to expand...

Nothing compared to watching an F-35 pull the same maneuver.
 
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