Military Airspace

Lance F

Lance F

En-Route
PoA Supporter
Joined
Apr 9, 2005
Messages
2,890
Location
GA
Display Name
Display name:
Lance F
In planning a trip from Atlanta to Phoenix I dropped the departure and destination airports ino AOPA's flight planner and soon realized you can't there from here. That is if you take MOAs and Restricted Areas into consideration. Basically all of New Mexico is covered, big hunks of Arizona and Texas as well. The convoluted airways one must fly through this maze is depressing in this age of GPS direct. Does anyone (civilian) know how often these areas are really used? Does the military ever give up unused airspace or only add to it?
Hey, I want the best military in the world too, but I wonder how much of this is the military flexing its muscle rather than a real need.
 
Having spent a couple of years flying around that area, I can say that there is no real problem with the MOA's since it's nearly always CAVU, and when it isn't, it's usually so bad you don't want to be flying any light airplane. The R-areas aren't always hot (nearly all cold on weekends), so you can often cut through them. If you want to go GPS direct VFR, it's usually no big deal if you check the posted "hot" times on the sectional and the NOTAMs in advance, and get flight following en route.
 
Lance F said:
In planning a trip from Atlanta to Phoenix I dropped the departure and destination airports ino AOPA's flight planner and soon realized you can't there from here. That is if you take MOAs and Restricted Areas into consideration. Basically all of New Mexico is covered, big hunks of Arizona and Texas as well. The convoluted airways one must fly through this maze is depressing in this age of GPS direct. Does anyone (civilian) know how often these areas are really used? Does the military ever give up unused airspace or only add to it?
Hey, I want the best military in the world too, but I wonder how much of this is the military flexing its muscle rather than a real need.
Click to expand...

As Ron said, it depends. Weekends give you the best shot at not having a problem. The MOAs are fairly busy on weekdays, sometimes on Saturday.

R-Areas are tougher - you might want to look at going to El Paso and following airways west from there. That'll keep you out of the R- and MOA airspace, and the enroute altitudes aren't all that bad, to boot. Watch for P-49 (Crawford)... it is often blocked off to a 30-mile radius, even on weekends, and you generally won't get cleared through there even if you're squawking and talking.

Houston and Albuquerque center are pretty good at providing advice and flight following. Use the service if you can - they can tell you if the areas are hot.
 
ABQ Center is pretty good about monitoring activity in the MOAs and letting GA pilots know about conflicts. As Ron pointed out, just about everything is cold here in AZ on the weekends. You can call ahead to see what's hot, approximately where it's active and what altitudes they'll be using (when they say, that is).
 
Lance F said:
In planning a trip from Atlanta to Phoenix I dropped the departure and destination airports ino AOPA's flight planner and soon realized you can't there from here. That is if you take MOAs and Restricted Areas into consideration. Basically all of New Mexico is covered, big hunks of Arizona and Texas as well. The convoluted airways one must fly through this maze is depressing in this age of GPS direct. Does anyone (civilian) know how often these areas are really used? Does the military ever give up unused airspace or only add to it?
Hey, I want the best military in the world too, but I wonder how much of this is the military flexing its muscle rather than a real need.
Click to expand...

Out here in California, we are also covered with MOA and Alert and Restricted air space. On weekends, I have never not been cleared to fly. On weekdays, you have a great probability of being cleared if you are on a Flight Plan or Flight Following... Often I get stuff like, "Cleared thru R-xxxx, remain at or above 6000".

On your FSS pre-flight call, ask them about all the MOA/Alert/Restricted status. Then make your flight plan accordingly. I have not experienced any issues, in general. But it may be different in other areas of the country.

Phil
 
Lance F said:
In planning a trip from Atlanta to Phoenix I dropped the departure and destination airports ino AOPA's flight planner and soon realized you can't there from here. That is if you take MOAs and Restricted Areas into consideration. Basically all of New Mexico is covered, big hunks of Arizona and Texas as well. The convoluted airways one must fly through this maze is depressing in this age of GPS direct. Does anyone (civilian) know how often these areas are really used? Does the military ever give up unused airspace or only add to it? Hey, I want the best military in the world too, but I wonder how much of this is the military flexing its muscle rather than a real need.
Click to expand...

We have long ago lost any competition for airspace with the military, and in the west it really sux, expecially on an E-W route like you are flying. And it is only going to get worse (I predict more, not less military airspace - and conversion of MOAs into R-areas eventually). There just isn't enough of us GA flyers out in these remote areas to complain so the airspace gobbling machine will likely continue.
The crazy thing is, like others have told you - many times you will go through a MOA and it is quiet as a morgue or atc say it's not hot, and you can get through just fine. Why they would need so much airspace if they don't use it is not completely comprehensible.
I too greatly appreciate the freedoms our military affords us, but will the airspace expansions not end until there actually is no more place for GA to fly? Is our country at such risk right now that we need to permanently hand over the freedom our very air offers?
Can anyone name a section of airspace that has ever been relinquished back to the public?
 
Luke AFB 'owns' a lot of space in western AZ but they tend to use it heavily during the week. As a F-16 training base, the pilots get a lot of air time. Same with Nellis in Las Vegas (which is very busy) and Davis-Monathan in Tucson.

I listened to a Luke liason speak at a FAA/APA (Arizona Pilots Association) meeting. It's not unusual for a single C152 putzing across the MOA to put a stop to four F-16s training in formation flying. They need a lot of area primarily because their speeds. Turning a fast mover can take a lot of distance. If they're doing mock dogfights and have to continue breaking off every time they hit a MOA boundary, how much training are they going to get?

Gliders and small planes don't show up on their radars, either. Their electronics is tuned to higher speeds. According to the liason, they'll pick up 150kts and higher, with some occasional returns from 130kts or so (on the target side). That means they are essentially trying to maintain visual separationg while moving four times the speed of the average C172 trainer.

Fly IFR, call ahead to the MOA authority, use flight following and, if possible, contact their approaches for flight following. Luke just recently brought up a new radar system to see beyond the local mountains. Now they can see more of their MOAs for better separation.
 
Dave, you're right. Maybe Dick Madding will chime in about the impact of the new MOA's near Cincinnati. Together with the Class B (which abhors VFR traffic) and the heavy airline traffic, those new MOAs might result in a 100 mile detour going from Louisville to Dayton. The route is a little over 100 miles direct.

Brian, Outlaw, Jackal, and Moreno MOA's east of Phoenix will cause a problem for Lance. I've never been cleared through them. Worse, I think the direct routing will put him through all the R-areas at White Sands, which is also not particularly hospitable to GA traffic.

Lance, it's V-94 west of El Paso. And be prepared to be jerked around by Phoenix approach if you are either IFR or unfamiliar. Sorry, BA, my experiences out there have not been particularly good. Last time I was routed west of South Mountain before being allowed to go north to Scottsdale.... arriving from the east.... And really, truly, Lance be very careful around the Waco area.
 
Lance:

I always fly direct from ADS to El Paso; then the airways. Usually enroute, you can listen or ask for direct. Phoenix has pretty busy airspace; so, if IFR expect a STAR.
From ELP, file to Hanch then v-66 to CUS. From here you can take a north route: V198 to SSO V94 to TFD then Phoenix; or, you can take the southern route: V16 TOTEC Phoenix. If you take the northern route, after SSO, you can usually get direct from around there somewhere.

Best,

Dave
 
Last edited:
The other thing too is that if you cut up direct through Albuquerque, you pretty much have no Rs Ps or MOAs to worry about. Stay north of the Pecos MOAs and you're essentially clear to the AZ state line (looking at sectional right now).

Of couse, Atlanta direct Phoenix may lead you further south....
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Can anyone name a section of airspace that has ever been relinquished back to the public?
Click to expand...
There used to be some MOAs between Cheyenne and Rapid City - not there now. Yeah - I know... that benefits a grand total of maybe 13 people, right? :rolleyes:
 
I'm currently on active duty with the air force and as a result have spent some time flying through moa's. I always get flight following and have yet to have been prevented from flying into any moa or special use airspace other than class b. I haven't been farther west than texas though.
 
Legally, you're allowed to go through MOAs regardless of their 'hot' status. Legal isn't always the safest idea, though. ;)
 
Brian Austin said:
Legally, you're allowed to go through MOAs regardless of their 'hot' status.
Click to expand...

That's true if you're VFR, but if you're IFR, ATC won't (or at least, shouldn't) clear you through one unless they coordinate your passage with the military user (e.g., limit them to 10K and above while you transit at 9K -- BTDT as the military user).

Brian Austin said:
Legal isn't always the safest idea, though. ;)
Click to expand...

That's always true.
 
Everybody,
I really appreciate the routing advice. Typically I would plan about 4 to 4:30 legs. I wonder if the briefer I'd be talking to at the departure end would have any idea of the status of the MOAs and Rs 600 nm and 4 hours distant. The worst thing would be to come right up to one of these huge MOAs and at the last minute be diverted around. That would sure add a lot of time.
My biggest issue will be to fly this myself or wimp out and take a Delta jet, which would be a whole lot faster and cheaper. I figure I can beat Delta considering time required for security and ground transportation time up to around 600 nm. Beyond that the big jet wins. This trip would be 1400 nm as a great circle route and even more real world.
 
Lance F said:
Everybody,
I really appreciate the routing advice. Typically I would plan about 4 to 4:30 legs. I wonder if the briefer I'd be talking to at the departure end would have any idea of the status of the MOAs and Rs 600 nm and 4 hours distant. The worst thing would be to come right up to one of these huge MOAs and at the last minute be diverted around. That would sure add a lot of time.
Click to expand...

You can ask but they may not know. Check with FSS in the air. Or ask the controller if you're on FF and talking to Center (or the appropriate approach controller).

In Texas, if you're through here on a weekday or some Saturdays, they may become hot at a moment's notice, so even that might not save you. I was cleared IFR through the middle of Kingsville MOA one day, and was inside of the MOA when ATC announced that it was going hot. They altitude restricted the military guys for 10 minutes until I could get clear of the boundary.

My biggest issue will be to fly this myself or wimp out and take a Delta jet, which would be a whole lot faster and cheaper. I figure I can beat Delta considering time required for security and ground transportation time up to around 600 nm. Beyond that the big jet wins. This trip would be 1400 nm as a great circle route and even more real world.
Click to expand...

But if you've never flown yourself out there, it's worth the trip just to see the sights. Take a couple of extra days and go up to HMS Sedona and thence to the Grand Canyon. You can't do that on Delta.
 
Lance F said:
Everybody,
I really appreciate the routing advice. Typically I would plan about 4 to 4:30 legs. I wonder if the briefer I'd be talking to at the departure end would have any idea of the status of the MOAs and Rs 600 nm and 4 hours distant. The worst thing would be to come right up to one of these huge MOAs and at the last minute be diverted around. That would sure add a lot of time.
My biggest issue will be to fly this myself or wimp out and take a Delta jet, which would be a whole lot faster and cheaper. I figure I can beat Delta considering time required for security and ground transportation time up to around 600 nm. Beyond that the big jet wins. This trip would be 1400 nm as a great circle route and even more real world.
Click to expand...


I don't know the answer to this, but what would happen if you called Albuquerque's FSS for info on the MOAs out here, and perhaps Dallas (if that's who it is) for info in texas, and etc.

ABQ FSS is 1-866-449-5390.
 
Hey Lance, I'm heading to San Diego Thurdsday morning in a B-55 Baron. Planning a stop in El Paso and go right by Phoenix. Why don't you just meet me here for breakfast and we'll go in a flight of two!!

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS
 
Dave, My trip isn't until later. Sorry I couldn't join you this time for that flight of two. I'm touched that you would consider lower and slower for me. :D I would like to hear how the trip was vis a vis MOAs and Rs. Any big detours? And what altitudes did you use (at least form El Paso to Phoenix area).
 
I posted in Cool Places to Fly. Headwinds the entire trip. If you go direct from Dallas, you will be a little north of the airway. As you near Wink VOR you will have to go to 12,000 or get back on the airway to stay at 10,000.

From ELP west, we went Hanch, V16 CUS V198 SSO V94 Vicko V16 PSP. There was turbulance low, so we went to 10,000. If you go to San Diego on the airway VOR, you should be prepared to 10M and perhaps 12M going west.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave, Thanks. Good post in Cool Places. Hope you get to Gastons. Maybe we'll have notes to compare.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top