Mifi works in the plane!

Chip Sylverne

Chip Sylverne

Final Approach
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Jun 17, 2006
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Quit with the negative waves, man.
I brought my new wireless hotspot toy along on a short hop from FDK to LOM. Gets a pretty good wireless signal at 5k-7kft, but you have to hold the thing vertically, and does best in a rear window, behind the wing. I'm going to try and rig up something out of plastic and suction cups to stick to the cabin window next rip, just to see how it does. It was pretty neat to be able to get in-flight taf's, metars and radar pix on my ipod touch. Wouldn't want to have to depend on it, but it was pretty neat!
 
I'm hoping that functionality connected to the EFB will bring my poor old cockpit into the 21st century.
 
I'm confused. Doesn't using wifi or mifi in the air violate FCC rules?
 
shywon said:
I'm confused. Doesn't using wifi or mifi in the air violate FCC rules?
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No.
First of all the rule I believe you're referring to covers 800MHz (or is it GHz) analog band not the higher frequency digital communications bands.

You as the PIC have to determine if it interferes with any installed navigation equipment per FAA rules.

Joe
 
hmmmm:Federal Communications Commission (FCC) rules prohibit the use of cellular phones using the 800 MHz frequency and other wireless devices on airborne aircraft. This ban was put in place because of potential interference to wireless networks on the ground.

http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cellonplanes.html

But Your ok with the FAA :confused:
 
Areeda said:
No.
First of all the rule I believe you're referring to covers 800MHz (or is it GHz) analog band not the higher frequency digital communications bands.

You as the PIC have to determine if it interferes with any installed navigation equipment per FAA rules.

Joe
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800 MHz or .8GHz

The question is where is his MiFi hotspot's downlink in the spectrum and under what FCC rules does it operate? If it is using an 800MHz cellular datalink then it is not legally allowed unless there is a waiver in place.
 
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I'm hoping Your right about it NOT violating FCC rules as a local CAP squadron is wanting to do live streaming video for clients.

So far I'm leaning toward Cap, Ham, or military freqs beacuase the wording on the FCC statement is vague.
 
shywon said:
I'm hoping Your right about it NOT violating FCC rules as a local CAP squadron is wanting to do live streaming video for clients.

So far I'm leaning toward Cap, Ham, or military freqs beacuase the wording on the FCC statement is vague.
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I am only speaking to the FCC regulation on 800 MHZ cellular which are in FCC part 22. I also know that FCC Part 24, which deals with PCS (1.9GHZ Cellular) does not have a prohibition on airborne cellular. I am wholly unfamiliar with any WiFi issues in the FCC regulations and could not knowledgeable comment on their legality. I am also unfamiliar with the particular MiFi access point that your are considering and as such could not offer an informed opinion on its legality while airborne.
 
shywon said:
I'm hoping Your right about it NOT violating FCC rules as a local CAP squadron is wanting to do live streaming video for clients.

So far I'm leaning toward Cap, Ham, or military freqs beacuase the wording on the FCC statement is vague.
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It's not vague. This has been discussed so many times here - unless your phone operates on the 800MHz band, you're ok with the FCC.
 
Thanks for that information!
 
I've also noticed that the thingy works better when it's on its side. They should include a stand to hold it that way.

-Rich
 
I have used my AT&T service in the air when: (1) I had a repeating amplifier attached, and (2) I was in rural west Texas. This was at 8500' (probably 5000' or so AGL).

I now have a Verizon wireless data doohicky, because the service they have at my country haunt is vastly superior to AT&T's (as in, it works, and AT&T's pretty much doesn't). I'll have to give that (the Verizon thingy) a try. It also has an external antenna connector, so I might think about a n antenna for the window.

FWIW, the GSM network in Australia support in-flight use without issues of any kind. I am guessing that any "interference" the FCC is worried about is principally interference with the revenue streams of AirCell and the like.
 
SCCutler said:
FWIW, the GSM network in Australia support in-flight use without issues of any kind. I am guessing that any "interference" the FCC is worried about is principally interference with the revenue streams of AirCell and the like.
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At this point the FCC could care less about intereference. There was an effort to remove the restriction a few years back but the carriers strongly objected.
 
ScottM said:
800 MHz or .8GHz

The question is where is his MiFi hotspot's downlink in the spectrum and under what FCC rules does it operate? If it is using an 800MHz cellular datalink then it is not legally allowed unless there is a waiver in place.
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The only FCC regulation that prohibits airborne cellular telephone use is CFR Title 47 part 22.925 and all of the containing subpart 22.900 pertains solely to the original AMPS (analog cellular) system operating on discrete frequencies between 824MHz and 890 MHz. This doesn't apply to any "cellphone" system in use today in the United States.
 
gismo said:
The only FCC regulation that prohibits airborne cellular telephone use is CFR Title 47 part 22.925 and all of the containing subpart 22.900 pertains solely to the original AMPS (analog cellular) system operating on discrete frequencies between 824MHz and 890 MHz. This doesn't apply to any "cellphone" system in use today in the United States.
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Can you supply some text from Subpart H of Part 22 that shows that these regulation only apply to analog AMPS cellular systems? I ask because I know of none that does and I know that the regulation is still in force and is still occasionally attempted to be updated. Most notably in 2007 when there was an attempt to remove 22.925 from the regulation.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=service_home&id=cellular

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2009-title47-vol2/pdf/CFR-2009-title47-vol2-part22.pdf

When one considers that Part22.901 actually discusses the sunsetting of AMPS (22.901(b))support without mentioning that the regulation become null at that point coupled with the lack of any text that I am aware stating that this rule only applies to AMPS, I think it is more than safe to say that FCC part 22 applies to any technology running in the bands defined by 22.905. That section is also the only part of the regulation that even discusses analog AMPS service.

It was in 2002 that the rules were updated to account for the new technologies. If you had looked at a version of Part 22 prior to that revision I can understand why you would think these rules are for AMPS only as many sections discussed issued and parameters that were only for AMPS. These sections were removed to allow the regulation to cover the change over to digital. I can assure you this rule is still in effect and applies to digital 800MHz cellular systems that operate in the 824-894MHZ band.

This is also why the AirCell corporation, which uses digital cellular, operates under a waiver with the FCC.

Additional non-regulatory indication that 22.925 is still in effect:
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cellonplanes.html The first paragraph of this 2007 advisory notice:
Federal Communications Commission (FCC) rules prohibit the use of cellular phones using the 800 MHz frequency and other wireless devices on airborne aircraft. This ban was put in place because of potential interference to wireless networks on the ground.
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Scott...what about the next line? I'm completely clueless WRT FCC regs, and wondering if this has any regulatory force.

Federal Communications Commission (FCC) rules prohibit the use of cellular phones using the 800 MHz frequency and other wireless devices on airborne aircraft. This ban was put in place because of potential interference to wireless networks on the ground.
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JeffDG said:
Scott...what about the next line? I'm completely clueless WRT FCC regs, and wondering if this has any regulatory force.
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Yeah that quote is from an advisory notice. You would need to find the rules for those specific devices.

Part 22 is the one for 800 MHz cellular.

Here is a memorandum and order from 2007 discussing how 22.925 is still in effect and a little about the 'other' devices.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-47A1.pdf
 
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ScottM said:
Can you supply some text from Subpart H of Part 22 that shows that these regulation only apply to analog AMPS cellular systems? I ask because I know of none that does and I know that the regulation is still in force and is still occasionally attempted to be updated. Most notably in 2007 when there was an attempt to remove 22.925 from the regulation.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=service_home&id=cellular

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2009-title47-vol2/pdf/CFR-2009-title47-vol2-part22.pdf

When one considers that Part22.901 actually discusses the sunsetting of AMPS (22.901(b))support without mentioning that the regulation become null at that point coupled with the lack of any text that I am aware stating that this rule only applies to AMPS, I think it is more than safe to say that FCC part 22 applies to any technology running in the bands defined by 22.905. That section is also the only part of the regulation that even discusses analog AMPS service.

It was in 2002 that the rules were updated to account for the new technologies. If you had looked at a version of Part 22 prior to that revision I can understand why you would think these rules are for AMPS only as many sections discussed issued and parameters that were only for AMPS. These sections were removed to allow the regulation to cover the change over to digital. I can assure you this rule is still in effect and applies to digital 800MHz cellular systems that operate in the 824-894MHZ band.

This is also why the AirCell corporation, which uses digital cellular, operates under a waiver with the FCC.

Additional non-regulatory indication that 22.925 is still in effect:
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cellonplanes.html The first paragraph of this 2007 advisory notice:
Click to expand...

You are correct in that I was basing my answer on my outdated copy of part 22. A thorough read of the pertinent sections of the current document leads me to concur that even a digital cell service is prohibited for airborne use if it operates in the allocated frequencies for cellular between 824 and 859MHz or 869-894Mhz. Do you know which providers and/or formats use those frequencies today? It's getting hard to tell what frequency my iPhone is using when it connects to AT&T or one of their secondary providers.

And a final observation or two:

As you know, the "Communication Advisory" in the link you posted is not regulatory or enforceable so the inclusion of the words "other wireless devices" carries no weight.

The very same 22.925 regulation that prohibits airborne use of cellular phones (824-894MHz only) also requires that said phones be "turned off" and a strict interpretation of the rule as written would preclude using any of today's phones in "airplane mode".

Also, 22.925 indirectly states that "violation of this rule could result in suspension of service and/or a fine" although that particular verbiage comes from a required notice contained within the rule that must be posted near any cellular telephones installed in an aircraft. This leaves me wondering if any enforcement would be legally viable given the actual lack of any provisions in the rule for enforcement.
 
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