Mic primer please?

alfadog

Final Approach
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alfadog
I have a pair of nice Sennheiser ANR heli headsets that I want to put up for sale. Took them over to the airport where a friend that teaches in R-44's helped me check them out in a couple of helis. Turns out they have mil mics on them. M-87/AIC.

I gather that the mil mics are 4 - 6 ohm impedance.

Can y'all rundown the types of GA mics for me?

I found a replacement from Acousticom for $40. It is 150 ohm impedance. Is that the norm for GA?

http://store.acousticom.com/microphones/aviation/M-7-DC-Amplified-Electret
http://store.acousticom.com/microphones/aviation/m7a-amplified-electret

What is the difference between those two above?

Also how does "amplified" fit in? I guess that the GA mic circuit provides a current to the mic for amplification?
 
Also how does "amplified" fit in? I guess that the GA mic circuit provides a current to the mic for amplification?

Yup. The circuitry was designed when carbon mikes were the state of the art. A diaphagm over a bunch of carbon power compressed the powder as sound waves hit it, and changed the resistance of the powder to vary the current flow though it to make the audio signal. That was the exact same technology used in old telephones.

Most mikes now are electret types that use a tiny circuit in the mike, using the supplied voltage to power a preamp and an electret element that picks up the sound.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electret_microphone

Dan
 
Thanks. So I understand about the amplified part. What does "dynamic" mean. It seems some mics are dynamic and some are not.
 
In the interest of answering my own question, I found the below on PPRune.

"Interestingly, the Electret Mic is a cheap innovation used with modern electronics and typically costs less that 50 pence at component level whereas, a dynamic microphone is better engineered, more costly, offers a better frequency response and is more likely to be found in professional audio applications.

That said, the Electret is probably a better option for an aviation headset, where the restricted bandwidth is ideally suited to voice communication. I have experienced Electrets that are pressure sensitive and have stopped working for a while following a change in altitude, until the internal pressure stabilises.

The dynamic Mic needs an integral amplifier to match the aircraft system; Electret mics include a single stage amplifier in the basic design, hence the higher output, some designs also include an additional amplifier before connecting to the aircraft system. Either type needs a DC supply to power the amplifiers, this is obtained via the Mic plug in the twin plug system that was originally designed for a DC powered carbon Mic; the military style single 4 pin plug provides no DC output hence there can be a problem with adapters and different style headsets."

Also, dynamic refers to a moving coil while the electret is a type of condenser mic.
 
A dynamic mike is one that puts out a signal without any power applied to it. You *NEVER* see these in aviation. As stated the Aviation standard mic is based on an old carbon telephone microphone (the plugs come from the telephone industry as well). These require a voltage to be put across the microphone and the sound waves make it into a variable resistor conducting current.

The mics in your headsets are all electret (also called condensor) mics. These are very weak microphones and take an amplifier to get it up to a usable level. This takes power. Now it happens to be really handy that the radio is putting out that bias for the carbon mic.
 
Unlike studio microphones one important requirement for aviation microphone is that they be noise cancelling for obvious reason. The noise cancelling microphone has two openings on opposite sides. Since noise is non directional source it will cancel out when entering both openings. But voice will not cancel since it can only enter thru one opening. The Electret microphones are ideal for noise cancelling on headsets due to their thin size implementation.

José
 
'

Do not.

Ron was absolutely correct. A dynamic microphone, by definition, is a coil of wire surrounding a magnet (or vice-versa). It requires no power, and puts out a miniscule amount of voltage.

If you are talking about a dynamic microphone with a matching amplifier that is powered by the current (not "bias" current) supplied by the aircraft microphone circuit, then the correct term is "amplified dynamic microphone".

Before you go getting your whities in a wad and saying "semantics", I'd suggest you go to the TSO specification for microphones and see how carefully that distinction is made.

I had the pleasure of designing some twenty different models of civilian aircraft headsets and was always very careful to use the FAA TSO designation.

Military microphones DO use dynamic microphones (a much better scheme, IMHO) and put the burden of amplification inside the radio, not the headset. So do all public service radios (cops, fire, etc.) as well as all amateur and CB radios ever made. CIVILIAN airplanes are the last bastion of the amplified dynamic microphone.

Ron was correct.

Jim
 
Unlike studio microphones one important requirement for aviation microphone is that they be noise cancelling for obvious reason.
José

My microphone TSO document is buried in a box under a box under a box. But as I recall, there is no specific requirement for noise cancellation. As a matter of fact, the microphones we used in the airlines were straight out of WWII design back in the early '60s and were NOT noise cancelling.

If there was a requirement for noise cancelling, it would have to be specified as a front to back ratio and tested. I cannot recall ever testing to meet that specification.

Jim
 
Military microphones DO use dynamic microphones (a much better scheme, IMHO) and put the burden of amplification inside the radio, not the headset. So do all public service radios (cops, fire, etc.) as well as all amateur and CB radios ever made. CIVILIAN airplanes are the last bastion of the amplified dynamic microphone.

So you're saying none of the electret mics upstairs in the ham shack exist?

Those are all "amplified dynamic microphones". Just because they do their own amplification inside the mic element... doesn't mean they aren't built the same way, just smaller.

So I wouldn't say airplanes are the last bastion of amplified dynamic microphones.

Even have one Shure mic up there that has its own battery in the desk base and a control for the amplifier gain.
 
So you're saying none of the electret mics upstairs in the ham shack exist?

Those are all "amplified dynamic microphones". Just because they do their own amplification inside the mic element... doesn't mean they aren't built the same way, just smaller.

So I wouldn't say airplanes are the last bastion of amplified dynamic microphones.

Even have one Shure mic up there that has its own battery in the desk base and a control for the amplifier gain.

Come on, Nate. You know better than that. Or you ought to turn your ham ticket in, one or the other.

Jim
 
Come on, Nate. You know better than that. Or you ought to turn your ham ticket in, one or the other.

Yeah but, I think you're just picking nits. Dynamic has a coil, electret has a capacitor and a charge and usually needs a pre-amp since the signal is tiny.

Nowadays you can make anything work with an airplane. Might not be FAA TSO, but they're using the amplified dynamic because there was virtually nothing to break and some early aircraft had looooong cable runs to the avionics bay. If you tried to amplify at the other end, all you'd have is noise and a horrible S/N ratio.

I'm pretty sure that piece of junk someone put in our glove box that we've never used, is a *carbon* mic. I'd have to look at it closer. It's officially an "aviation" mic.

Speaking of having an extra mic so you can use the overhead speaker if needed... Imagine my surprise when I found the extra mic jack on the center pedestal wasn't actually wired to anything. LOL.

Idiot left it there with no wires after someone upgraded the panel to a PS Engineering and BK radios in the 80s.

Certified avionics person and an A&P sign off, right there... Boy howdy. High quality FAA-approved work. :)

Don't get me started on Cessna grounding... And the back side of their breaker panels. Looks about as good as most old model railroad sets. LOL.

Almost nothing in my ham shack is dynamic. You said they're using dynamic, which isn't true anymore. Opened up the Kenwood commercial mic just now to look, and it's an electret. So is the EF Johnson. Both are public safety radios.

Last dynamics I have around here from public safety are the mics from the GE MASTR II lineup, and the older Motorola ones. The new ones look the same but aren't dynamic mics inside at all.

Some of the Heil stuff is dynamic. (Who'd have ever thought some guy would pinch off the audio response of a dynamic mic to mids and highs only, make it sound really tinny and awful, and could sell it to hams as a "contest"/DX mic? And he'd make enough money doing it, he'd gold plate some of them and sell those too? LOL! Cool that Joe Walsh hangs with Bob and helps him with advertising though, nothing like an old rock band guy to convince 70s audiophiles that the mics are good!)

(I can't complain about Heil though, they're like David Clark... You send 'em a dead one, it'll be back fixed as good as new for nothing or close to it. One of the headsets has an intermittent. They're going to replace the entire headset cord and integrated PTT and scan switches for $17. It's an old Heil Traveler. Neat idea, weak little switchbox. They made a newer model with beefed up switches and heavier cord, and then stopped selling them saying they're "designing the next generation".

On those public safety rigs, they put a hockey puck of lead or other metal inside those new mics to make them as heavy as an old dynamic mics, because Officers and Firefighters didn't like the dainty feel of the new lightweight mics, and they also kept the huge mic handsets necessary for the big dynamic mics, but they're mostly full of air.

When the officers get mad and throw them across the car, the metal in the early ones was just held on by double sided tape (especially Kenwood) and would come loose and rattle around inside the mic case. You could hear it over the air. LOL.

Most now at least have a screw holding the metal puck to the back of the mic case, often the same screw that holds the mic hangup button on the outside rear of the case.

You sure know when you get a real dynamic hand mic. You could beat someone to death with one of those things.

Do you get as much of a kick out of Apple putting two mics on the iPhone and touting it as new technology for noise cancellation as I do?

Heck, tossing a second mic on the line 180 out of phase and pointed away from the audio source is a decades old trick. Pretty sure Apple is creating a fake phase difference in a DSP and not in the audio input to the mic amp, so they can shape the cancelation noise a bit toward the high end... but it's still one of the oldest tricks in the book.
 
Yeah but, I think you're just picking nits.

That's what engineers do for a living, remember?

they're using the amplified dynamic because there was virtually nothing to break and some early aircraft had looooong cable runs to the avionics bay. If you tried to amplify at the other end, all you'd have is noise and a horrible S/N ratio.

Nope, disagree. You've got a 4-6 ohm dynamic in the mic holder. That and shielded wire back to the radio and I defy you to get noise into that setup.

I'm pretty sure that piece of junk someone put in our glove box that we've never used, is a *carbon* mic. I'd have to look at it closer. It's officially an "aviation" mic.

Real simple. Ohmmeter between the ring and shell of the mic plug. Tap the front of the mic. If the resistance changes more than a couple of ohms, it is carbon. If it stays put it is amp. dynamic.


Almost nothing in my ham shack is dynamic. You said they're using dynamic, which isn't true anymore.

I must be an old fart, then. My dynamics sound like ME on the air; an electret cannot by construction have any bass response at all.



Heck, tossing a second mic on the line 180 out of phase and pointed away from the audio source is a decades old trick. Pretty sure Apple is creating a fake phase difference in a DSP and not in the audio input to the mic amp, so they can shape the cancelation noise a bit toward the high end... but it's still one of the oldest tricks in the book.

Yeah, DSP is a great buzzword when a simple inverting opamp gives 180 phase shift from DC to daylight.

Jim
.....
 
Heh. DSP is 'cause the kids didn't learn analog at school beyond a simple RC calculation. They slap the DSP in and buy the "shaping" software from one of only a few vendors.

I don't claim to be great at analog design, but I know how to keep swapping resistors until it looks right on a scope. :)
 
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