Mastering the Power-on Stall

[Jaybird180]

The topic I think speaks for itself, but here's a bit more info:

I'm on my 2nd CFI, well advanced in the curriculum. I'm not comfortable with power-on stalls. My 1st CFI only served to scare the crap out of me on all stalls, I had no understanding of even why do them...how stupid is this, who would do this on purpose, keep the darned airspeed up and the AoA down and you don't stall, seems simple, why do we keep doing this crap every friggin flight, are you wasting my money...[rant off]

Anyhow, my 2nd CFI told me that nobody is comfortable doing power-on stalls (including himself- probably not a productive confession to a student pilot).

He was however successful in showing me power-off and now I don't have problems doing them, and find it fun (but don't tell him that). Unfortunately, I still have that power-on monkey on my back. Last time we were up dual, he took the controls during my attempted power-on because he said he was looking at the ball and it was pegged right. I didn't see yawing clouds nor feel it in my seat and was a bit hesitant to try again...don't even think about doing it solo...but eventually I'll get the nerve.

What tools do I need in my toolbag to do them confidently? I'm thinking of suggesting a ride with the Chief CFI, purposely putting the C-172 in the utility category and intentionally inducing a power-on spin, just to get over the fear. Is this a good strategy? It's my understanding that you really have to booger a power-on stall to get the Skyhawk to spin.

Clear this up for me. Tim (new CFI), what do you think?

 

[Jaybird180]

I should add that I also asked him to show me an accelerated (turning) stall and he happily obliged. I declined to duplicate, still a bit shaken after my power-on experience and trying to understand what went wrong and how to fix it.

 

[Fearless Tower]

What exactly is it about power on stalls that is bothering you?

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm on my 2nd CFI, well advanced in the curriculum. I'm not comfortable with power-on stalls. My 1st CFI only served to scare the crap out of me on all stalls,

If that's what happened, it probably wasn't being done right.

I had no understanding of even why do them...

One thing I've seen in newer instructor is a failure to explain why we do particular maneuvers. For example, the power-on stall (aka "takeoff/departure stall") is taught because when it's hot, high, and heavy, some folks still pitch the plane to the "normal" takeoff/climb attitude they're used to in SL/cold/light conditions, and just don't grasp that the plane is actually stalling at an attitude where normally it's a long way from stalling, especially when they see an obstacle in front of them. Further, in that situation, you must recover with pitch alone because you're already at full throttle, altitude will be lost in the recovery, you don't have much altitude to play with, and the danger of a secondary stall is extreme. Did either of your instructors talk about that with you?

Anyhow, my 2nd CFI told me that nobody is comfortable doing power-on stalls (including himself- probably not a productive confession to a student pilot).

It all depends on how you approach the situation. One thing that is important in making this maneuver realistic (in the sense of showing folks how real takeoff/departure stall accidents occur) is duplicating the power/weight ratio in which it really happens. If you take a C-172 with trainee+instructor and 1/2-2/3 fuel on a winter day at lower elevation (say, 2500 MSL) and cob the throttle all the way, what you get is a pretty extreme maneuver (one which often exceeds legal parameters) that will serve only to "scare the crap out of [the trainee]."

If instead, they set up in slow flight at normal liftoff speed, and advance the throttle only enough to duplicate the power/weight of that same plane at 10,000 DA with a full gross load (probably about 2100 RPM in a 172 with only two aboard) and then rapidly pitch the plane to a normal short-field climbout attitude, you really see what the problem is. Further, by not letting the trainee advance the throttle for the recovery (after all, we're simulating that it's already firewalled), the trainee can see just how tricky it is to recover with pitch control alone without losing more altitude that we've simulated that s/he has gained after liftoff.

What tools do I need in my toolbag to do them confidently?

Probably a more experienced and knowledgeable instructor.

 

[dmccormack]

I'm not Tim, but a CFI.

A few comments:

1. Your situation is not unique. Most (all? many?) pilots feel anxiety when control of the airplane is wrestled away by turbulence or gravity.

2. The airplane will correct itself. It wants to fly.

3. Stall fear is contagious. If your instructor doesn't like them, you will catch that distaste.
​

So, how to fix:

Find an aerobatics instructor and tell him you do NOT want to learn aerobatics -- you just want to overcome the anxiety you have about stalls (If he laughs, punch him in the face right below the Ray Bans and move on).

Have him demonstrate the stability of the airplane. Let him do some power off and then power on stalls while you look out the side of the window and see the airplane is NOT pointed straight up and then straight down.

Do some pushovers to get comfortable with Zero G (Slow the airplane up, pull up then push down until you get light in the seat). After a few of these stalls of all types will become routine. The difference will be you are in control.

When you're ready, get some spin training. You will learn that the absolute worst that can happen in a stall is a spin, which is rather routine to recover once you've made PARE a reflex.

FWIW I tried flight training when I was 17 and my instructor scared me off with various stupid moves (opening my door on final for "more drag", incipient spins in hour two, etc).

Twenty years later I tried GA again and earned the PP in a couple of months and have been flying ever since.

A huge part of overcoming anxiety is understanding what can happen, why it happens, and then how to recover when it happens. That confidence is priceless.

 

[Anthony]

Right rudder, Right rudder, Right rudder. I still hear my instructor saying that.

 

[Ted]

Power-on stalls are definitely pretty hair-raising as a student. My first attempt I put the 172 into a spin. I actually was correcting properly, but got scared and said to my instructor: "Help?" To which he responded "Oh, you want me to do something?" Now, I'm perfectly comfortable with them.

First off, remember what the point of stall training (power on or off) is: You're trying to learn the warning signs of when it will happen so that when you approach the stall in real life, you instinctively know what's happening and can correct it before you get yourself into a stall or spin. In real life when a stall occurs, it will creep up on you during a high workload time when you know you shouldn't be getting yourself into a stall situation, but do so inadvertently.

Once you have that in mind, enter it with the understanding of it as a learning exercise. Talk yourself through what's happening and what you should be doing (your instructor should be doing this, too). Keep the ball centered as you're smoothly increasing your AoA and adding power. As the airspeed drops you'll feel the plane start to get sloppy, but you keep that ball centered and wings level. This takes more work as your airspeed goes down. The stall warning comes on, by which point if you hadn't realized a problem in real life already you would have immediately pushed the nose down, but we keep going. Then the stall breaks, you push the nose down, and recover from it.

Now, you wouldn't ever do this in a real world situation intentionally, but let's say that you're climbing out on a day when visibility is lower than you're used to, and you're climbing while straining to look out the window at your obstacles while climbing with the sun in your eyes. Your airspeed gets a bit low, and then instantly you realize something's wrong when the plane gets mushy and the stall horn goes off. Now you've practiced what to do, and you just do it. That's why you're doing this practice.

Don't feel like your apprehension of stalls is abnormal, as your CFI said (although I would expect him to be comfortable with it...). After you try them a few times, it gets to be more comfortable. Perhaps a spin will help make it more comfortable still, as you'll realize that in a 172 a spin is a very easy thing to recover from. I'd start out with simply doing more practice of stalls. As you get more comfortable with your ability to perform and recover from them, I think you'll get more comfortable.

If you have a hard time finding a comfortable instructor to do this with, come on up to Pennsylvania, and I'd be glad to help you out.

Signed,

- A CFI comfortable with stalls and spins

 

[Jaybird180]

What exactly is it about power on stalls that is bothering you?

I really don't know. It's in my head. It should be as easy as a power-off, I think.

I think it's that I can't see the horizon when I'm vertical (or feels like I'm vertical- like ready for launch in the space shuttle). Since I can't feel yaw as well yet, I depend upon visual cues for the information. I'm purposely working on getting over my instrument dependence (hundreds of hours in sims), which is why I didn't notice the ball.

Why would the airplane spin more readily power-on vs off? Is this an unjustified myth?

I'd like to get this sorted before my next dual, which should be strictly checkride prep.

 

[Jaybird180]

Ron- I'm thinking a talk with the Chief CFI will help resolve many issues that I've experienced during my training. Sometimes feedback is helpful. I really have the intention of making the process better for others as well as myself. I'm concerned that defensiveness WILL be a factor. Nevertheless, life goes on and I'm too far in my training to abandon ship. I can however recognize the need for additional training after I get my ticket. I think I'm well aware of my personal and training shortcomings and have started discussing them with my CFI and recommending remedies.

Dan- I've talked with the local tailwheel instructor. He's a great guy to talk with and I've even flown with him on a non-instructional flight, but for some reason I'm not convinced he's the right person to help me overcome. Do you not think that having the Chief CFI show me spin recoveries by letting me intentionally booger power-on stalls is a good idea? BTW-Sorry you had an idiot CFI at 17.

Anthony- I know, I know, I know, yet I do not do. It's my understanding that I'm not alone in needing better rudder co-ordination. The above guy says that I must learn the difference between a car and an airplane.

Twins- Maybe I don't have enough experience to understand task overload to really grasp what you're saying. I'm thinking A-N-C is the cure-all to task overload and when somethings not right, exit the situation and reapproach (I've done this before).

 

[somorris]

Jaybird: First, I am not a CFI so take my comments with a grain of salt. I think the power on stalls are a little more nerve racking because you are usually at a much steeper attitude to get the airplane to stall, and you have all the engine torque, p-factor, etc. trying to yaw the airplane. For me, the easiest way to control the yaw is to look out the front wind screen, usually kind of near the edge so you can see over, and pick something on the ground that you can use to keep straight. If you keep the airplane from yawing, it will just break over fowards the same as in a power off stall. If you can't see over the nose, you can look out the left wing. If you are yawing, it will be moving on the horizon.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I really don't know. It's in my head. It should be as easy as a power-off, I think.

I think it's that I can't see the horizon when I'm vertical (or feels like I'm vertical- like ready for launch in the space shuttle). Since I can't feel yaw as well yet, I depend upon visual cues for the information. I'm purposely working on getting over my instrument dependence (hundreds of hours in sims), which is why I didn't notice the ball.

Why would the airplane spin more readily power-on vs off? Is this an unjustified myth?

I'd like to get this sorted before my next dual, which should be strictly checkride prep.

The biggest difference with pwr on vs pwr off is the left turning/yawing tendencies of the engine which are greatest with lots of power on and even more pronounced at high angles of attack. The solution, though is simple - you need to add alot more right rudder. Since you are having a tough time with the visuals and feel, try spending a little more time glancing down at the turn coordinator and other instruments as you practice the power on stalls. Like building up muscle memory, it will help you become familiar with the rudder pressure needed to keep it coordinated.

Some may disagree with this, but I say if you are comfortable doing it referencing the instruments from years of simming, then try it that way in the real plane - it will help you get the feel.

I also flight-simmed for YEARS before I got off my butt and took flying lessons. I too found that I relied too much on the gauges for VFR flight, but for me, using the instruments (or at least using them to x-check what I was seeing) to transition, actually made it alot easier to get the visuals and the feel down. If you can do it correctly on instruments, you should eventually be able to associate the visuals with what you have been doing on the gauges. I am not necessarily saying this is the correct way of learning to fly, but it did work for me.

 

[Jaybird180]

Jaybird: First, I am not a CFI so take my comments with a grain of salt. I think the power on stalls are a little more nerve racking because you are usually at a much steeper attitude to get the airplane to stall, and you have all the engine torque, p-factor, etc. trying to yaw the airplane. For me, the easiest way to control the yaw is to look out the front wind screen, usually kind of near the edge so you can see over, and pick something on the ground that you can use to keep straight. If you keep the airplane from yawing, it will just break over fowards the same as in a power off stall. If you can't see over the nose, you can look out the left wing. If you are yawing, it will be moving on the horizon.

Why didn't I think of that?


Ron- A/C typically loaded with 2 adult men (he's FAA standard, I'm ambitious) and nearly full fuel. We are doing them at full power at 2500-3000 MSL (DA probably 1000' lower). Are you saying we should use partial power instead?

 

[EppyGA]

I think it's that I can't see the horizon when I'm vertical (or feels like I'm vertical- like ready for launch in the space shuttle).

Less than 30 degrees is certainly not vertical. :wink2:

Hang in there, you'll be fine.

 

[Jaybird180]

Fearless- neither of my CFIs recommended a remedy to instrument reliance. My current CFI noted it, however. It was my decision that I needed to learn visual references for common maneuvers (like what climbs and decents look like rather than flying the ASI). Not looking at the ball is a remedy that I've been working on. I think I may take your advice for doing power-on stalls.

 

[Jaybird180]

Less than 30 degrees is certainly not vertical. :wink2:

Hang in there, you'll be fine.

Next time I'll look at the Attitude Indicator and let you know (LOL)

 

[dmccormack]

Dan- I've talked with the local tailwheel instructor. He's a great guy to talk with and I've even flown with him on a non-instructional flight, but for some reason I'm not convinced he's the right person to help me overcome. Do you not think that having the Chief CFI show me spin recoveries by letting me intentionally booger power-on stalls is a good idea?

No, I'm suggesting you ride along for some stalls. Then do some pushovers. Then schedule time to see a spin.

I think someone with aerobatic expertise is better than simply tailwheel.

I did my CFI spin training over a few sessions and learned tons. Basically we recovered from every possible bad scenario. Was eye opening and confidence boosting.

Face the elephant and find out it's all between the ears.

 

[PittsDriver]

jaybird, where in the DC area are you training? I'm very familiar with the DC area aerobatic and spin instructors and there's a couple that I would highly recommend. Adam Cope at Potomac and Bill Finagin at Annapolis where I'm based.

Based upon what you've wrote here, I would respectfully suggest that you're experiencing some pretty normal fear of the unknown. Power on stalls, as someone else here said, are different/more dramatic because the attitude is higher and there are more forces on the airplane from the power being up. But your problem is just fear of the unknown combined with instructors that aren't helping you over that fear.

If you like, PM me and I'd be happy to talk to you directly about getting some spin training and what it was like for me when I first started in acro.

 

[Dan Thomas]

If you keep the airplane from yawing, it will just break over fowards the same as in a power off stall.

No, it will still drop its left wing first. The torque reaction, combined with the spiralling slipstream that increases the AOA on the left inboard wing, will see that it does. Keep the power on and the rudder in and drop the nose and it will recover. Don't use the aileron.

Dan

 

[somorris]

Dan: My C-150 just drops straight ahead. No fall-off on either wing.

 

[RoscoeT]

No, it will still drop its left wing first. The torque reaction, combined with the spiralling slipstream that increases the AOA on the left inboard wing, will see that it does. Keep the power on and the rudder in and drop the nose and it will recover. Don't use the aileron.

Dan

Oh boy, here we go with another one. In everything I've done power-on stalls in, I've been able to prevent a wing drop with proactive rudder use. I actually did it a couple days ago.

 

[Fearless Tower]

No, it will still drop its left wing first.

Perhaps on a specific airplane, but since you didn't specify, I don't think it is accurate to say that the left wing will always drop first.

I've flown plenty of planes that will drop either wing or stall straight ahead.

 

[somorris]

I actually did it a couple days ago.

Me too, Roscoe. I like doing them. As long as I keep the airplane going straight, it just stalls straight ahead.

 

[Kirbhund]

I also used to have a stall/slow flight phobia, but luckily, somehow it just went away...I think fear of the spin and not being able to pull out for some reason fuels the phobia.

 

[BiffJ]

I was also terrified of stalls when I started flying. The plane I did my primary training in had a reputation for spinning very easily and I was so fearful of spins that it made life tough. I spoke to my instructor about that and he suggested doing some spin entries and recoveries to see what would happen. He also mentioned that they (the instructors) had all spun the L2's in both directions and showed competence in recoveries. I reluctantly said Ok, lets do it. The first thing we did he called a falling leaf though I don't know what its really called. We did power off stalls and held the stick back rather than immediately recovering. I had to keep the nose centered with the rudder pedals and recovered from the stall only when the nose swung to the point where I couldn't stop it. Its tough to keep it straight after the nose bobs a few times but through practice you can keep the nose straight and solid. Once I had that down a bit we went on to spin entries. We really were only doing about half a turn average but I learned a lot about what makes the plane work and why. After seeing how simple it is to recover from the maneuver I was so afraid of the stalls themselves didn't seem nearly so bad. Like others have said, become familiar with these maneuvers and you won't fear them.
There is a good reason for doing all this too. All these stalls, power on-off- accelerated etc will teach you what the airplane will do and what you need to do to recover before the ground intervenes. You will be thankful for the training if you get in to a situation where you need to recover. One important thing to remember is that while most of us like to keep the seat underneath us it doesn't mean the plane cares which way is up. Planes operate in 3D and we need to be able to handle them in any attitude.

Hope that helps some
Frank

 

[gismo]

Next time I'll look at the Attitude Indicator and let you know (LOL)

Better yet look out along the left wing. I think you'll find the angle between the wing and the horizon to be far less than your the image your imagination has created and I suspect you'll find that view far more reassuring than a peek at the AI.

There's also some chance that you are using way too much power and/or starting with too much speed, either of which can result in a significantly greater deck angle than needed or specified in the PTS. As Ron pointed out the goal of this maneuver is to make you more aware that at high DA and weight the pitch angle you're used to seeing down low at less then MGW can and will produce a stall. Therefor there's no reason you should feel like you're climbing vertically, in fact if that's how it appears to you you're not getting the benefit that this kind of stall practice is intended to provide.

As to the coordination issue, I disagree that any yaw if present will be obvious visually looking over the nose. First of all yaw is not the same thing as turning (which is a changing yaw) so you can be seriously uncoordinated yet still be moving in a straight line. Second, when you have the plane pitched up enough that you can't see the horizon straight ahead, you have to either look off to the side or use your peripheral vision to sense yaw rate and bank angle and since you probably don't spend a lot of time looking that way it will be difficult to determine what looks "right" or "wrong". Finally, other than the bank required to maintain heading an uncoordinated yaw is indistinguishable from wind generated crabbing.

There are three ways to detect an uncoordinated condition and only one involves looking over the nose. If your wings are level (parallel to the horizon) and the plane isn't turning (some point straight ahead remains straight ahead) then you are coordinated. As mentioned above this isn't particularly easy to see when the nose is pitched up high. Number two is the inclinometer (ball). That's pretty easy to see and interpret (stand on the ball) but using it means taking your eyes inside the plane long enough to average out a few oscillations if there's any turbulence or overactive control inputs. Number three is commonly called the "seat of your pants" although for many (including myself) the posterior isn't terribly sensitive. But you can substitute your neck or torso for your butt if that's the case for you. You can sensitize yourself to this method by deliberately yawing the airplane while trying to detect which way your head and torso want to lean naturally. For me it involves tipping my head very slightly left and right and then comparing the effort required to return it to vertical. Which ever side it's harder to return from is the side your ball will be on and the side you need to increase rudder pressure to correct. While your at it, pay attention to the force you're applying with each leg, it's common to push hard on both pedals instead of only one and one result of that is more difficulty sensing the direction of the lean/yaw.

 

[TMetzinger]

The suggestion to look out at the wingtip is a good one - it will both cue you in to any yaw, but will also provide a sanity check on your pitch attitude. It there are clouds with features (cumulus) above you, it can be helpful to point the nose at one before you begin the manuever, so that even when you lift the nose, you have a reference to use for yaw.

The error I know I made as a student, and that was pointed out to me as an instructor candidate, was that the airplane wasn't properly configured and at the proper speed at the start of the manuever. The power-on stall is supposed to reflect a stall induced in a departure or climb, which means that the airplane should be no faster than Vy in the clean configuration at the start of the manuever (for a climb stall) and may be at rotation speed or just above it (for a departure stall). When begun at the proper (fairly low) energy level, you won't find yourself looking at the sky for a long time before you reach the stall. The nose comes up smoothly, the power comes in smoothly, the right rudder goes in smoothly, and you hold that, increasing the right rudder as the speed decreases, until you get a stall. The moment you feel the nose drop (even a little), say "there it is" and reduce the angle of attack - you should be at full power already in the typical trainer.

Something that may help - set up (with your instructor) a continuous, partial-power, climb, and level off when you get the stall warning horn, then repeat. What you'll learn there is the feel for the additional right rudder as you raise the nose, and what coordinated flight "feels like" in that attitude.

Feel free to give me a PM - I'd be interested to learn where you're training. I hope that you've had this discussion with your current CFI already.

 

[ajstoner21]

There have been a lot of really great comments already, so I don't feel I can add any more to it.

If your CFI is afraid of stalls, you need a new CFI. In my opinion, if you are afraid of stalls (practicing them, that is), you need to go up with a CFI and practice untill you're not afraid. The fact your CFI didn't explain why you practice them is also a problem.

In addition to just different atmospheric and weight loading conditions that Ron stated, the simple fact of getting distracted at the wrong part of flight is enough to cause an accidental stall.

Imagine taking the wife and kids for a flight, and your kids are being noisy during takeoff, you look back to yell at them (big no no, attention needs to stay focused during especially critical phases of flight), and next thing you know, you're airspeed bled off too much and you stall because you accidentally exceeded critical angle of attack.

I would say power-on stalls are practiced to simulate diverted attention resulting in a stall in during take off. I would also say power-off stalls are to simulated diverted attention when landing. It sounds simple enough to stay focused, but you would be surprised I guess.

If you are afraid of spinning as the result of a stall, maybe go get spin training or something so you know what to expect and how to recover with confidence.

 

[Henning]

First off, fly minimum controllable airspeed (stall horn should be blaring nearly the whole time) stably, now go full throttle and climb at minimum controllable airspeed. Pay attention to the ball, it should be in the middle, "step on the ball" to get and keep it there. Continue flying Mca until you have mastered keeping the ball in the center. Have the plane trimmed so you are holding only a couple of pounds of back pressure to keep the stall horn on. Now pull on back all the way, the plane will buffet a bit and the nose will drop some, as soon as the nose starts to drop ease your backpressure until the stall horn goes off. There, you have just done a power on stall completely in control and you probably didn't even lose altitude. Rinse and repeat going between minimum controllable airspeed and stall, do it at least half a dozen times. It's a complete non event unless you are training in a very high horsepower high wing loading plane that doesn't have enough rudder to counteract its torque at low speed (something like a P-51)which I am seriously doubting you are in. Stalls, power on or power off, are complete non events in most all the planes we train in. The key is to keep the ball centered up, and that requires some leg strength. If your leg isn't starting to feel the strain going into a power on stall, you are not doing it right and most likely as soon as the stall breaks, the left wing drops violently and you start rotating at the same time. This means YOU are not controlling the aircraft. The stall isn't the problem, you are. Take control of the aircraft, it will do whatever you tell it to, you just have to talk its language.

 

[Mike Boehler]

Anyhow, my 2nd CFI told me that nobody is comfortable doing power-on stalls (including himself- probably not a productive confession to a student pilot).

My instructor would get a pass on this one. I know its been mentioned a bunch here, but it may be his own, ill advised, way of showing some comfort to you.

 

[Jaybird180]

Thanks for the ideas all.

Henning- Flight at MCA is a non-issue for me, even solo. I think I can try the MCA climbs though, I think I like that idea a lot.

 

[bbchien]

I expressly prohibit solo practice of power on stalls until I have taught spin recovery in a spin-legal aircraft. Instead, I just sit there with my hands folded. We do them at about 65% power, and constant altitude.

Slow to behind power curve, drag the aircraft up, maintain alititude, gradually add power to about 65%, ball centered, yokes comes back slowly, altitude stays at 4,000.....at the first break, pitch down just a tad, ADD power ball centered, recover. If the student puts in aileron we break that habit RIGHT NOW. A wing down is recovered with pitch down and slight opposite rudder.

But NO practice until I know you can recover from the spin.

 

[spiderweb]

I expressly prohibit solo practice of power on stalls until I have taught spin recovery in a spin-legal aircraft. Instead, I just sit there with my hands folded. We do them at about 65% power, and constant altitude.

Slow to behind power curve, drag the aircraft up, maintain alititude, gradually add power to about 65%, ball centered, yokes comes back slowly, altitude stays at 4,000.....at the first break, pitch down just a tad, ADD power ball centered, recover. If the student puts in aileron we break that habit RIGHT NOW. A wing down is recovered with pitch down and slight opposite rudder.

But NO practice until I know you can recover from the spin.

That's just about as good as it gets, folks!

 

[RyanShort1]

First off, power-on stalls are fun in their own way - sometimes just to see how students react.
My CFI examiner (A good one) told me that she has a little game she plays with other pilots when going for a lunch run or such. They do a series of stalls, and whoever takes the most altitude to recover from a full stall has to buy... :wink2: Not a bad deal, and a fun way to stay in practice.
Seriously, a good reason to practice is the unexpected object in front of you. At the latest AOPA safety seminar here last week, there was a airline pilot who showed us a not-for-public consumption video produced in conjunction with NTSB tapes of an incident he was a part of. The 737 was cleared for departure in marginal visibility conditions, and a C-210 pilot thought he was cleared for takeoff, too . To make a long story short, the captain SAW the 210 JUST in time and the only way to avoid a collision was a VERY hard pull on the yoke that apparently took their speed down to around 100 KTS under 500' off the ground. They felt a thump that they thought was a mid-air, but was probably the propwash of the 210 as it slid inches underneath them. The only reason they survived was because of instinctive reactions and drills in the simulators. I actually thought the story was the most helpful of the stories told. I have had several flight review guys tell me that stall practice was stupid, irrelevant, etc... and that they would never get in one anyway. Maybe so, and probably they never will, but there are things like that that are good to practice on occasion, JUST IN CASE.

Ryan

 

[RyanShort1]

I expressly prohibit solo practice of power on stalls until I have taught spin recovery in a spin-legal aircraft. Instead, I just sit there with my hands folded. We do them at about 65% power, and constant altitude.

Slow to behind power curve, drag the aircraft up, maintain alititude, gradually add power to about 65%, ball centered, yokes comes back slowly, altitude stays at 4,000.....at the first break, pitch down just a tad, ADD power ball centered, recover. If the student puts in aileron we break that habit RIGHT NOW. A wing down is recovered with pitch down and slight opposite rudder.

But NO practice until I know you can recover from the spin.

Hmmm. You may have just changed the way I teach! And maybe given me an excuse to make students fly the Cub at least once.

Ryan

 

[spiderweb]

And the other thing about this to communicate to this new imminent pilot is this: stalls can be a LOT of fun, once you know how to tame them!

 

[murphey]

I really don't know. It's in my head. It should be as easy as a power-off, I think.

I think it's that I can't see the horizon when I'm vertical (or feels like I'm vertical- like ready for launch in the space shuttle). .

Glance out the side window then look at the AI then back out the side window. You'll realize the angle is less than 20 deg. nose up and that will help reduce the anxiety.

I've noticed that I can do power-on & power-off stalls under the hood very easily because I can't see the nose of the airplane, hence the anxiety isn't there.

As to the question "Why Power On Stalls?" Well, where's the obvious event in any flight where you'll be pitch up with full power? Right - the takeoff.

 

[denverpilot]

I expressly prohibit solo practice of power on stalls until I have taught spin recovery in a spin-legal aircraft. Instead, I just sit there with my hands folded. We do them at about 65% power, and constant altitude.

Slow to behind power curve, drag the aircraft up, maintain alititude, gradually add power to about 65%, ball centered, yokes comes back slowly, altitude stays at 4,000.....at the first break, pitch down just a tad, ADD power ball centered, recover. If the student puts in aileron we break that habit RIGHT NOW. A wing down is recovered with pitch down and slight opposite rudder.

But NO practice until I know you can recover from the spin.

THAT is an excellent technique, and I'm filing it away for that "someday" when I'm a CFI. Thanks for sharing Bruce.

 

[TMetzinger]

I expressly prohibit solo practice of power on stalls until I have taught spin recovery in a spin-legal aircraft. Instead, I just sit there with my hands folded. We do them at about 65% power, and constant altitude.

Slow to behind power curve, drag the aircraft up, maintain alititude, gradually add power to about 65%, ball centered, yokes comes back slowly, altitude stays at 4,000.....at the first break, pitch down just a tad, ADD power ball centered, recover. If the student puts in aileron we break that habit RIGHT NOW. A wing down is recovered with pitch down and slight opposite rudder.

But NO practice until I know you can recover from the spin.

Interesting - most of the instructors and examiners teach full power for this manuever in the 152/172/Warrior/Archer/DA20 class. The 65% power (minimum allowable in the PTS) is usually reserved for folks doing the manuever in high performance airplanes.

And it doesn't sound (from your description) that the airplane climbs the way the manuever is described in the AFH. Maybe I'm not interpreting it correctly here but it sounds a lot more slow and gentle than the manuever described in the private PTS. But I know that different evaluators have different ways of wanting to see the manuevers done, particularly the stalls.

 

[denverpilot]

In light of Tim's comment, it does seem like a excellent Instructor would have someone demonstrate both a 65% power and a full-power "power-on" stall, and explain why one's a very good simulation for a reduced density altitude takeoff, whereas the other is typically caused by someone being ultra-inattentive during a normal takeoff.

Of course, up here... we're often already at 65% of the normally-aspirated engine's power once we're up in the practice area and at a safe altitude for doing such things.

Performing a takeoff at the engine's 65% rated power at airports with lower altitudes is an excellent way to prepare oneself for what you'll see for ground roll in Denver in the summertime.

Just sayin'...

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron- A/C typically loaded with 2 adult men (he's FAA standard, I'm ambitious) and nearly full fuel. We are doing them at full power at 2500-3000 MSL (DA probably 1000' lower). Are you saying we should use partial power instead?

You should if you want to a) keep the pitch attitude below 30 degrees so you stay legal, and b) simulate the real look of the power-on stalls that kill people.